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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2007 :  20:48:11  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

It's unlikely that Wizards would want to publish A Temporal Chronology of the Primes, but perhaps it is time I give that work another polish and make it available as a PDF. No promises but I'll see what I can do.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Brian, I still can't get A Temporal Chronology of the Primes to work on my Mac when I download it from Geonomicon as an HTML file. Is it available as a pdf? I can copy and paste it to Word, but all of your lovely color-coding and most of the organization goes right out the window(s) if I do. Have you received any intimation from Wizards that they want to publish the whole Temporal Chronology?




Thanks. My breath is baited.


I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2007 :  23:14:48  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase

quote:
originally posted by Dalor Darden

My question is this:

What exactly is the "Far Realm" and how does it interact with the "normal" universe?


And is it just me who prefer to call them "the Dungeon Dimensions?"

I don't call them the "Dungeon Dimensions' specifically, but Pratchett's work on the alien region has been helpful for my planar campaigns when it comes to tailoring the Far Realm itself to my particular tastes!

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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

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Edited by - The Sage on 08 Nov 2007 23:16:23
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2007 :  05:05:09  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No Rinonalyrna I don't believe an entry made it in the Grand History for HotU, though it was my favorite expansion of NWN1. The ending, for instance, would be especially problematic to canonize.

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

I was wondering if there were any references in GHotR to NWN: Hordes of the Underdark?

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Gelcur
Learned Scribe

224 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2007 :  17:55:38  Show Profile  Visit Gelcur's Homepage Send Gelcur a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm with Brian, HotU was my favorite too. I really do wish that they would work with the game developers to create canonic games. I know BG1 isn't totally canonic and I have heard mixed things about the novel but the fact that the general events did happen means I could use some of them or hint to them in my canonic campaign.

It always makes the players eyes light up when they know they have a little more information on the background story since they read it or played it somewhere. I've been trying to figure out how to put HotU into canon especially the very last part in Waterdeep, "choking powder FTW".

The party come to a town befallen by hysteria

Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good.
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader

USA
2881 Posts

Posted - 11 Nov 2007 :  22:38:19  Show Profile  Send Lord Karsus an AOL message Send Lord Karsus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

That's certainly an interesting conundrum Dagnirion, for which I have no answer.


-The only way to try to rectify it is by considering Mhairshaulk and the Human tribes of the west to be the Chultan peninsula. However, when the Sundering does happen,much of Mhairshaulk and those western Human tribes becomes Maztica.

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

It might be explained away by this Abeir vs. Toril business I keep hearing about, but we’ll need to wait for the 4E campaign guide to learn the truth of that.


-Feh. More mucking up the timeline...

quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

I was wondering if there were any references in GHotR to NWN: Hordes of the Underdark?


-I caught references to the original, and Shadows of Undrentide.

(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)

Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2007 :  01:30:27  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote

quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

No Rinonalyrna I don't believe an entry made it in the Grand History for HotU, though it was my favorite expansion of NWN1. The ending, for instance, would be especially problematic to canonize.


Too bad! Thanks for the answer, though.


"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 12 Nov 2007 :  01:31:56  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gelcur

It always makes the players eyes light up when they know they have a little more information on the background story since they read it or played it somewhere. I've been trying to figure out how to put HotU into canon especially the very last part in Waterdeep, "choking powder FTW".



For my part: The BBEG was killed, but not permanently, thanks to his nature.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 13 Nov 2007 :  21:35:37  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well met, Brian!

I have asked a question about your use of "antediluvian" in the page about the Scouring of the Utter East on the scroll: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10226. Would you please be so kind as to answer it there -- it's focused on the Utter East and your answer would be appropriate there? (I think you ought to answer here, too, though, so your answer can be added to the annual collection of lore from everyone who isn't Ed Greenwood). Thank you very much.



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13455 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2007 :  03:24:52  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Although he answered it there, the word 'antideluvian' in regards to the Realms can be swapped for 'primordial', or any other word that means "before recorded human history".

Question: I notice that the vingettes in the GHotR appear within a page of the timeline date they are referencing. The only one we are unsure about it the one regarding The Dawn Cataclysm (you know, where the priest of Pelor shows up ). My question is this - is the placement of that vingette a hint as to about when the Dawn Cataclysm actually took place?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4790 Posts

Posted - 15 Nov 2007 :  05:16:46  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Although he answered it there, the word 'antideluvian' in regards to the Realms can be swapped for 'primordial', or any other word that means "before recorded human history".

Question: I notice that the vingettes in the GHotR appear within a page of the timeline date they are referencing. The only one we are unsure about it the one regarding The Dawn Cataclysm (you know, where the priest of Pelor shows up ). My question is this - is the placement of that vingette a hint as to about when the Dawn Cataclysm actually took place?



No. Eric was quite specific about that when layout of the vignettes was being discussed.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13455 Posts

Posted - 17 Nov 2007 :  07:30:50  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the speedy reply, GK.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2008 :  20:55:14  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Antediluvian means "before the flood" (just as antebellum means "before the war"), which, with respect to Earth, refers to the period before the biblical flood of Noah, in Genesis. The flood is thought by some to have occurred between 4,000-5,000 years ago and thus antediluvian describes a period that is very ancient or prehistoric.

But with respect to the Realms, I would use the word specifically to refer to ancient Jhaamdath, before the flood in -255 DR. That is still very ancient, over 1,600 years ago. But in the Realms, where written history extends much further back into the past than on Earth, it is comparatively recent. Especially when 16 centuries is recent enough that certain individuals yet living to this day can bear witness to the event, or at least were living at the time of the flood.

Antediluvian is the perfect adjective to describe the golden age of Jhaamdath, and by extension pre-fall Netheril whose era of glory overlapped greatly the time of Jhaamdath.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2008 :  21:10:38  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Brian, here is a question for you: in the Grand History of the Realms, on the Days of Thunder map, there are some very intriguing names--Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda.

I didn't see these names anywhere else in the chronology (unless I missed it) nor in your former PDF document. I was wondering if you could tell us if the names were yours, or Ed's, or something the artist came up with, and further I was hoping you might be able to tell us what species lived in each of those regions, and anything more about these "nations" that you can share.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Jan 2008 :  22:55:04  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Antediluvian means "before the flood" (just as antebellum means "before the war"), which, with respect to Earth, refers to the period before the biblical flood of Noah, in Genesis. The flood is thought by some to have occurred between 4,000-5,000 years ago and thus antediluvian describes a period that is very ancient or prehistoric.



It's also a hyperbolic way of suggesting that something is old-fashioned or out of date.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2008 :  04:24:59  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda, along with Zhoukoudien and Pourounkorokale are all Batrachi Empires. I had briefly mentioned Zhoukoudien in my Candlekeep IV article, but I wanted there to be multiple batrachi nations represented on the map so the names were all pulled out of my head.

I sketched out the following lore for a possible future Candlekeep or Realmslore article Gray. Use it or discard it as you see fit:

Pourounkorokale is the longest lived of the batrachi nations and existed entirely underneath the southern waters of the Black Sea (modern day Shining Sea). From their crystalline cities the wise tako ruled over tribes of kuo-toa, locathah, and other species of aquatic batrachi. Though Pourounkorokale survived the fall of great Batrachi Empires, their race became nearly extinct with the ensuing war against conquering seawurms and the ultimate betrayal by their sahuagin allies. Survivors fled through the Strait of Lopango to new homes in the Sea of Corynactis (west of modern day Maztica).

The domain of Boitumelo was centered on the ancient Narrow Sea (in modern day Anauroch). This realm of loosely confederated nations was peopled by tribes of kappa, sivs, and grippli.

The lands surrounding and beneath the modern day Wizards Reach and Alamber Sea were the domain of the Kolophoon Sovereignty. Here aboleths ruled supreme over their kopru and froghemoth servitors and it is thought that these primordial batrachi opened gates to the Far Realm unleashing the first aberrations upon Abeir-Toril.

The largest of the batrachi surface nations, Zhoukoudien, was ruled by an unnamed amphibian species whose descendants became bullywugs. Their wars against the giants are legendary and it is thought that their misguided actions led to the Tearfall and the ensuing Seven Turn Winter.

Nadezhda was a great forested region (in modern day Maztica) once populated by human tribes which migrated across the Strait of Lopango to flee enslavement by the Yuan-ti of Mhairshaulk. Their respite was short lived, however, as the human tribes were quickly infiltrated and eventually supplanted by batrachi doppelgangers. Nadezhda ultimately fell to Aearee expansion as that race moved into the region.

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Brian, here is a question for you: in the Grand History of the Realms, on the Days of Thunder map, there are some very intriguing names--Kolophoon, Boitumelo, and Nadezhda.

I didn't see these names anywhere else in the chronology (unless I missed it) nor in your former PDF document. I was wondering if you could tell us if the names were yours, or Ed's, or something the artist came up with, and further I was hoping you might be able to tell us what species lived in each of those regions, and anything more about these "nations" that you can share.


Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1287 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2008 :  20:37:27  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks! That is some wonderful lore. It's great to learn some context and history to go with those intriguing names!
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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  01:53:39  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage  Click to see Sian's MSN Messenger address Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i found the map on page 44-45 because it gave me an idea about how far Ammarindar reached (for in which areas it would be reasonable to find ruins of the place) ... but i would like some clearifications on it ...

does Ammarindar reach into nowdays Anauroch or does it basicly run (in clockwise) from the nortwesten border of High Moor, along High Forest/River Delimbiyr and up to somewhere in Nether Mountains and down along Anauroch to Marsh of Chelimber?

as far as i remember there isn't all that much mentioned about Ammarindar but is there of your knowledge any fluff about the country not allready told about in GHotR, Dwarves Deep or the Volo guide in dragon #351 (or whereever it was ... never remember) about the thrones?

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  02:28:17  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sian

as far as i remember there isn't all that much mentioned about Ammarindar but is there of your knowledge any fluff about the country not allready told about in GHotR, Dwarves Deep or the Volo guide in dragon #351 (or whereever it was ... never remember) about the thrones?
There's another "detailed source" on Ammarindar... Eric Boyd's brain and hard drive.

There's also some [very] brief references in the Hellgate Keep module, and Lands of Intrigue. As I recall, Cormanthyr talks about how some clans from Ammarindar migrate to Myth Drannor. There's also Brian's dwarf-centric Realms chronology:- Xoth Jakolor. Some of this has been referenced in Grand History, though the "Xoth Jakolor" chronology lists the various sources used to compile it.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 09 Jan 2008 02:29:27
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  14:44:17  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Sian. My thoughts would be that Ammarindar did not extend into Anauroch. I believe it appears that way on the map due to the font used and the length of the word Ammarindar. I agree with The Sage that Eric Boyd (and possibly George Krashos) is the leading authority on Ammarindar and may be able to provide you additional details not found in other sources.

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game

Edited by - Brian R. James on 09 Jan 2008 14:44:55
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2008 :  14:46:24  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm. Some of those dates in Xoth Jakolor are now out of date. I may have to update that timeline!

Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1073 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2008 :  11:48:43  Show Profile  Visit crazedventurers's Homepage Send crazedventurers a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Brian for the Moonshae write-up on the WoTC site

One thing jumps out at me immediately: 299DR and the intervention of Flamsterd in the downfall of the Mad Kings.

Flamsterd is one of my 'Realmslore Mysteries', one that I can't get enough of. I don't suppose you have any more lore about the old fella do you? Does his history stretch back further than 299DR or is this his first 'major contribution' to the Realms as a powerful wizard i.e. is he born in that time period, or is he a lot older? (a refugee of Netheril?)

There is also a large time span between his first and second inclusion in the time lime (c.1000 years), any thoughts on his whereabouts/plots/plans during this time?

Off searching for the means to extend his lifespan? In stasis awaiting the time he is needed again? or just quietly getting on with protecting his home and helping folks develop themselves?


I love the little piece about Anhaern Rhyllgallohyr as well, fits nicely into the write up from Ed's Moonshae module (HoTHK).

Thanks for an excellent article

Damian

EDIT: Meant to add, that I like the 'old' map of the Isles when they first formed, seems uncannily like the description Ed gave of what the Moonshaes looked like in the home Realms campaign.....

So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005

Edited by - crazedventurers on 11 Jan 2008 12:03:33
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BlackMoria
Seeker

Canada
36 Posts

Posted - 11 Jan 2008 :  17:02:27  Show Profile  Visit BlackMoria's Homepage Send BlackMoria a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I really appreciated the timeline of the Moonshaes. Brian, is it your intention to do more 'regional' timelines or it is a one-off sort of thing?
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2008 :  01:31:29  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the kind words Damian.

Unfortunately, I don't have any additional lore about old Flamsterd. I believe Ed created this character and may know more about his origins and his fate.

You're spot on about the Anhaern Rhyllgallohyr reference from Halls of the High King. I tried to mine as much lore from that adventure as I could and include it in the timeline.

Kudos! You are the first to comment on my homage to Ed's Earthsea-like Moonshaes. Well done. I never saw Ed's original map, so I hope it is a close approximation of his vision.

quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers

Thanks Brian for the Moonshae write-up on the WoTC site

One thing jumps out at me immediately: 299DR and the intervention of Flamsterd in the downfall of the Mad Kings.

Flamsterd is one of my 'Realmslore Mysteries', one that I can't get enough of. I don't suppose you have any more lore about the old fella do you? Does his history stretch back further than 299DR or is this his first 'major contribution' to the Realms as a powerful wizard i.e. is he born in that time period, or is he a lot older? (a refugee of Netheril?)

There is also a large time span between his first and second inclusion in the time lime (c.1000 years), any thoughts on his whereabouts/plots/plans during this time?

Off searching for the means to extend his lifespan? In stasis awaiting the time he is needed again? or just quietly getting on with protecting his home and helping folks develop themselves?


I love the little piece about Anhaern Rhyllgallohyr as well, fits nicely into the write up from Ed's Moonshae module (HoTHK).

Thanks for an excellent article

Damian

EDIT: Meant to add, that I like the 'old' map of the Isles when they first formed, seems uncannily like the description Ed gave of what the Moonshaes looked like in the home Realms campaign.....



Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer

USA
1074 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2008 :  01:34:42  Show Profile  Visit Brian R. James's Homepage Send Brian R. James a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not currently scheduled to write another regional timeline, but I would be happy to do so if Wizards permitted it. Any suggestions for the next region you would like to see covered in more detail?

quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria

I really appreciated the timeline of the Moonshaes. Brian, is it your intention to do more 'regional' timelines or it is a one-off sort of thing?


Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer

Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames, and please be sure to check out the RED AEGIS Roleplaying Game
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2008 :  01:46:24  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James

Unfortunately, I don't have any additional lore about old Flamsterd. I believe Ed created this character and may know more about his origins and his fate.
Indeed. Flamsterd's one of the remnants of Ed's original Moonshaes.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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