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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  04:18:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Now that the new edition of the D&D core game is apparently upon us, I'm setting aside this scroll for official 4e discussion. Let's try to keep most of the chatter about the new edition confined to this scroll for the time being, until the proper release of official 4e D&D core products.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 16 Aug 2007 04:20:53

Kentinal
Great Reader

4433 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  05:19:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right now all I can say is even Firefox is not tellinging anything except there is a countdown. I have to look at the source code to even see 4th Edtion indicated. If the web introduction is an indication, 4th appears to be a very bad idea.

Edit it appear gleemax will not let me read the post because I was not given permision to read that section of those forums. WotC did recognise me so login is not the problem. Gleemax appears to be restricted in someway in that I can not view. Perhaps percause I did not make many posts over there, maybe invitational, *shrugs* but there clearly is a reason.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 16 Aug 2007 06:03:30
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  06:04:56  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
it appear gleemax will not let me read the post because I was not given permision to read that section of those forums. WotC did recognise me so login is not the problem. Gleemax appears to be restricted in someway in that I can not view. Perhaps percause I did not make many posts over there, maybe invitational, *shrugs* but there clearly is a reason.



It was a leak that they closed shortly after.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4433 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  06:12:24  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*chuckles*

I see, though still not impressed by the countdown website. The 'js' is looping and I suspose after time is right content will appear explaining the countdown. Right now all I can see is part of a picture (clearly not bordered) and the bloody countdown.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  06:35:05  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hopefully 4ed will see the end of the LG Paladin

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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ShepherdGunn
Learned Scribe

USA
89 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  07:54:02  Show Profile  Visit ShepherdGunn's Homepage  Click to see ShepherdGunn's MSN Messenger address  Send ShepherdGunn a Yahoo! Message Send ShepherdGunn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I don't mind the Lawful Good Paladin.

I just hope it's not D&D "Saga" Edition.

Also, does this mean a re-release of the main Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book? It does explain why there's nothing for the first trimester listed in the catalogs, then.

I'm just really not too shiny on the whole 4e idea right now.

"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him."
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore

Germany
1720 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  10:20:31  Show Profile Send Ergdusch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I myself am not very happy about the 4th edition thingy eiter. I truely hope the changes in game system will not be too dramatic. I'll sit it out until the count has run down to say anything more on this.


Ergdusch

P.S.: Whats wrong with LG paladins? (pm me maybe to keep that discussion out of this 4th-ed.-only-thread)

"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht."
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4607 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  10:39:18  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Paladins" should be like Clerics and be open to all alignments

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
618 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  11:06:26  Show Profile  Visit Uzzy's Homepage Send Uzzy a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe it's all a big joke played on us all? *fingers crossed* Waiting for more actual info, as opposed to the rampant speculation going on over at EnWorld.

I don't particularly like the idea of all my good quality and rather expensive sourcebooks become obsolete for one! I do have to seriously ponder the wisdom of announcing this before clearing the current run of sourcebooks too. They still have the Rules Compendium to come out! Anyone want to take bets on how little that will sell?

Edited by - Uzzy on 16 Aug 2007 11:27:39
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe

USA
565 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  13:31:14  Show Profile  Visit Dhomal's Homepage Send Dhomal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello-

I have a couple of friends who are WOTC delegates - and they said - right her ein the Sagamore ballroom - tonight at 6:30 - some sort of "D&D Announcement"

Unless it is some elaborate hoax - it does seem the time has come...

I will try and re-post when I hear more... and since these are in the Sagamore ballroom - I am hoping it will not take too long...

Dhomal

I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!

Successfully traded with Xysma!
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  13:43:04  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://grimorioesquecido.blogspot.com/

Player's in may 2008
DM in june and Monster in july


Well... the positive thing about this is that Ed have said for us to expect some good surprise at Gen Con...

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33613 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  13:47:36  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
http://theminiaturespage.com/news/519193/

quote:
August 16, 2007 (Renton, WA) – Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain - millions of D&D players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today, Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook. A pop culture icon, Dungeons & Dragons is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world, and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.

The 4th Edition Dungeons & Dragons game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new web-based tools and online community forums through the brand-new Dungeons & Dragons Insider (D&D Insider) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.

The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the internet — the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.

"We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D Director of Roleplaying and Miniatures Games at Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex, while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."

Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January — Wizards Presents: Classes and Races and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters. The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D Experience gaming convention in Washington D.C. in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.

Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game Dungeons & Dragons has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33613 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  13:48:56  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm, Chosen of Moradin posted the same thing I did, just a bit earlier... Ah, well. I'll leave my post there to keep folks from having to go elsewhere.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4433 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  14:08:15  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Faster play?

Perhaps d10 or getting rid of dice rolls?

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1283 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  14:09:07  Show Profile  Send SirUrza an AOL message  Send SirUrza an ICQ Message Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ShepherdGunn

Also, does this mean a re-release of the main Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book?


Of course it does. The FRCS was the only big seller in the Realms line. Why do you think they barely converted the Realms to 3E? They weren't making any money on it.

What this really explains is why Monte Cook is retrying from the RP Supplement business.



Side note, here's a screenshot that got out for the 2 seconds that the information leaked...

http://www.daggergate.com/wizards4e.gif


I have a feeling it's going to be "Saga" edition. Of all the products the miniatures sell the best, it only makes sense for them to force them into the game.

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.

Edited by - SirUrza on 16 Aug 2007 14:14:57
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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  14:20:45  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage  Click to see Sian's MSN Messenger address Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
well ... i must admit ... i don't want to take an opinion about wether a new edition is good or bad before i get the chance to sit down and read it from cover to cover :p

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  14:40:19  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wonder whom they got their feedback from? I switched from 2nd to 3.5 one and a half years ago and I will not restock my library once again. If it remains compatible with the 3rd edition stuff fine, if not, screw 'em

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  14:47:38  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

I wonder whom they got their feedback from? I switched from 2nd to 3.5 one and a half years ago and I will not restock my library once again. If it remains compatible with the 3rd edition stuff fine, if not, screw 'em



I hope the opposite, because compatibility means no real changes.

They seem to go for simpler rules, which IMHO is a very good idea.
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4433 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  14:58:59  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Feedback can have come from many places.

WotC could have watch its own forum for likes and dislikes, house rules to fix things people thought was broken.

Clearly they could request opinions of former design team members as well.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:26:04  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Hmm, Chosen of Moradin posted the same thing I did, just a bit earlier... Ah, well. I'll leave my post there to keep folks from having to go elsewhere.



Good idea! I make that post quickly, because I was going to see a sell of dvds... but to my despair, the most "new" movie on the store was Bonanza...

And now that the inevitable is upon us, I start to wonder what names we will see in the cover of FR 4th edition... If was to satisfy my taste, these names will be:

Ed of the Green Wood
Steven Schend
Eric Boyd
George Krashos
Sean K Reynolds
Thomas Reid

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33613 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:39:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When 1E shifted to 2E, the changes were rather minor. To my mind, they were almost entirely cosmetic.

When 2E shifted to 3E, they flipped the entire game upside-down. It was a very drastic change. In my opinion, they did improve the game with this shift, mainly by going to a more elegant and intuitive ruleset.

The shift from 3E to 3.5E was mostly fine-tuning what had been done before.

Now we're facing 4E. I'm inclined to think it's going to be more like 1E to 2E, or 3E to 3.5E, rather than the shift from 2E to 3E. Among other things, this kind of minor shift will have less impact on all the other companies that do D20 material.

This does mean, though, that I'm now no longer going to worry about all the 3E Core stuff that I lost.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33613 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:40:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sian

well ... i must admit ... i don't want to take an opinion about wether a new edition is good or bad before i get the chance to sit down and read it from cover to cover :p



That's my thinking as well. Speculating about what will and will not be changed isn't terribly productive, and complaining is even less productive.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
33613 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:47:34  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Heh, I just had a goofy thought. Maybe it's not Fourth Edition D&D they're announcing -- maybe it's the 4th edition of the WotC search engine, which will, believe it or not, actually help you find things!

Okay, so I know that it's really 4E, but the idea still amuses me. And their search engine is just this side of useless...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe

869 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:49:44  Show Profile  Visit Arkhaedun's Homepage Send Arkhaedun a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm getting the distinct impression that 4th edition will indeed be very similar to the Saga Edition of Star Wars, though I've no inside information.

What this means is that its still a class based system, and hit points and BAB still scale pretty similarly to the current edition, and movement is pretty much the same as we have become accustomed too in 3rd edition.

Where the "simpler and faster" comes from, again, if they use Saga as a model, is that skills are either trained or focused, and then what your actual "number" is derived from your level. So if you are trained in a skill you have 1/2 your class + ability modifier for the skill, +5 if you are focused in it (I might be off a bit, but that's the general idea).

Classes in Saga are "modular" and based on ability trees, so if you start down a certain path, the next time you get a class ability, its somewhat based on the ability you took before in that class.

Still free multiclassing, if Saga is the model. Still prestige classes, though PrC don't really have trees like the base classes, but a set progression.

No iterative attacks, again, if they follow the Saga model. You can take feats to give you iterative attacks, but in general you just get better to hit and doing more damage with your main attack.

From the D&D podcast and from some recent design choices (skill tricks, Book of Nine Swords, reserve feats) I'm getting the feeling that there may be more of a move toward "per encounter" rather than per day use of abilities. How this specifically works out for spellcasters I don't know, though its likely to be a little like the Book of Nine Swords model of things.

Also, the healing reserve feats don't allow you to heal more than 50% of your hit points with the ability, so I'm guessing there may be a similar mechanic when it comes to healing outside of encounters.

Again, all of this is pure conjecture, but I'm guessing based on what I've seen of Star Wars Saga and what the designers themselves have said in recent podcasts about what was "wrong" with D&D.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:52:28  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arkhaedun

I'm getting the distinct impression that 4th edition will indeed be very similar to the Saga Edition of Star Wars, though I've no inside information.

What this means is that its still a class based system, and hit points and BAB still scale pretty similarly to the current edition, and movement is pretty much the same as we have become accustomed too in 3rd edition.

Where the "simpler and faster" comes from, again, if they use Saga as a model, is that skills are either trained or focused, and then what your actual "number" is derived from your level. So if you are trained in a skill you have 1/2 your class + ability modifier for the skill, +5 if you are focused in it (I might be off a bit, but that's the general idea).

Classes in Saga are "modular" and based on ability trees, so if you start down a certain path, the next time you get a class ability, its somewhat based on the ability you took before in that class.

Still free multiclassing, if Saga is the model. Still prestige classes, though PrC don't really have trees like the base classes, but a set progression.

No iterative attacks, again, if they follow the Saga model. You can take feats to give you iterative attacks, but in general you just get better to hit and doing more damage with your main attack.

From the D&D podcast and from some recent design choices (skill tricks, Book of Nine Swords, reserve feats) I'm getting the feeling that there may be more of a move toward "per encounter" rather than per day use of abilities. How this specifically works out for spellcasters I don't know, though its likely to be a little like the Book of Nine Swords model of things.

Also, the healing reserve feats don't allow you to heal more than 50% of your hit points with the ability, so I'm guessing there may be a similar mechanic when it comes to healing outside of encounters.

Again, all of this is pure conjecture, but I'm guessing based on what I've seen of Star Wars Saga and what the designers themselves have said in recent podcasts about what was "wrong" with D&D.




I spent months swearing that the Saga system wasn't a prelude to 4th edition, but given that d20 Star Wars was the prelude to 3rd edition, its likely now that this might have been a glimpse of the future.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 16 Aug 2007 :  15:56:51  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well... when the 3rd edition was announced, I stay with the idea that it will use the Alternity rules system, that was the best rules set (IMHO) in those days. But I was surprised with the 3rd edition rules, and I really like of them... let's see what these news will bring to us.

The oficial announcement will happen at 6:30 pm, here in Brazil.
Good to me, in this hour my wife is watching tv novels, and I'm in the control of the keyboard.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

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Facebook: yuri.peixoto
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