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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:01:33
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-You have your information incorrect, then.
-To quote the product directly:
"In the Year of the Crimson Thorn (792 DR), the priesthood of Vhaeraun revealed that the ranks of the Chaulssinyr leadership had been heavily infiltrated by the malaugrym. After a day of bloody battles, the shapeshifters were unmasked and put to sword, but only at the cost of many lives and the collapse of the city’s patriarchy. In response, the Church of Vhaeraun assumed power and founded House Jaezred, an elite brotherhood of assassins trained to ferret out and kill shapeshifting interlopers."
...
Responsibility for stealing Clan Malaug’s secrets fell to House Jaezred, and their successes thrust the patron fathers of the brotherhood into a position of increasing respect and leadership among the Chaulssinyr that threatened to eclipse the authority of the ruling Vhaerunite priesthood. To avoid civil strife and to fulfill the Chaulssinyr’s debt to the Masked Lord, the patriarchs of House Jaezred agreed to return to Faerûn, where they would work to undermine the rule of the Spider Queen. In so doing, they reduced the chance of fratricidal warfare with the Church of Vhaerun and gave hope to the long-nurtured dream of the Chaulssinyr of returning to the Material Plane. However, they also began to distance themselves from the Masked Lord and his followers."
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(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Nov 2008 17:02:51 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:21:05
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-Again, straight from the product:
"The Jaezred Chaulssin are a secretive, hidden order of assassins who claim descent from the ruling House of the ancient city of Chaulssin and the shadow dragons who once enslaved the City of Wyrmshadows. After years of exile on the Plane of Shadow, the surviving lords of Chaulssin, reduced to a mere handful of dragon-blooded sorcerers and assassins, have returned to the city of their forefathers and founded minor Houses and secret guilds of assassins in other drow cities."
"The Patron Grandfather is wholly committed to the ideals of the Jaezred Chaulssin, and he views House Jaezred as the living extension of his will."
-Both link the Jaezred Chaulssin to House Jaezred, in that the two are one and the same (the former noting that the Jaezred Chaullsin left the Plane of Shadows, just as we are told House Jaezred left the Plane of Shadows, and the latter denoting the leader of the Jaezred Chaulssin feeling that House Jaezred is an extension of his own being). Jaezred Chaulssin is used to denote House Jaezred in Chaulssin, their seat of power on the Material Plane. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Nov 2008 17:23:14 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:24:23
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Granted, however, the Jaezred Chaulssin was formed to spite their former slavers. As for the Jaezred Chaulssin distancing themselves from any authority, here is a quote from the product.
Mauzzkyl instinctively rebels against all forms of authority, refusing to accept any situation in which his power is not absolute.
This rebellious streak formed the basis of his hatred for the shadow
dragons of Clan Jaezred (which is why they named themselves the Jaezred Chaulssin), accounts for his differences with the patriarchs of the Church of Vhaeraun, and forms the core of his hatred of the Spider Queen. The Patron Grandfather is wholly committed to the ideals of the Jaezred Chaulssin, and he views House Jaezred as the living extension of his will. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Nov 2008 17:41:38 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 17:49:47
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Dagnirion, I believe Drakul is right
quote:
Dragons of Faerûn Web Enhancement: City of Wyrmshadows
Church of Vhaeraun: Given their hatred for the Spider Queen, most Chaulssinyr give at least token obeisance to the Masked Lord. Led by Patron Father Xorthaul of Jhachalkhyn, clerics of Vhaeraun hold many influential positions among the Jaezred Chaulssin, but the other Patron Fathers subtly discourage all efforts to make the brotherhood into the swordarm of the church. In the wake of Lolth’s return, the Patron Fathers have moved to further distance themselves from the hierarchy of the Masked Lord, seeking to sidestep the possibility of open warfare between the Spider Queen and her son.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:02:33
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-Clan Jaezred was the family of Shadow Dragons that took over Chaulssin in -221 DR, the Year of Shambling Shadows. They left their home of Chaul’mur’ssin on the Plane of Shadows, and took over the city, slowly drawing it closer to the Plane of Shadows. They were all overthrown and killed (except for one Shimmergloom) in 634 DR, the Year of the Darkspawn. When, in 734 DR, the Year of Shared Visions, Vhaeraun warned the ruling patrons of Lolth's army marching towards them, they fled to the Plane of Shadows, and took up residence in Chaul’mur’ssin, the caves that their Draconic forbearer's once inhabited, that contained their Dragon hordes.
-The Jaezred Chaulssin was formed by the Church of Vhaeraun to discover and destroy the Malaugrym that had killed and replaced some of the rulers of Chaul’mur’ssin. "After a day of bloody battles, the shapeshifters were unmasked and put to sword, but only at the cost of many lives and the collapse of the city’s patriarchy. In response, the Church of Vhaeraun assumed power and founded House Jaezred, an elite brotherhood of assassins trained to ferret out and kill shapeshifting interloper". When the Church of Vhaeraun realized that House Jaezred was amassing a great deal of power, they felt threatened. In order to avoid fratricide between the two factions in Chaul’mur’ssin, an agreement was worked out where the Jaezred Chaulssin left to settle Chaulssin, while the Church of Vhaeraun stayed in Chaul’mur’ssin.
"In the Year of the Shadowkin Return (1136 DR), House Jaezred returned to the City of Wyrmshadows and established the House of Hidden Masters in the heart of ruined Chaulssin. Enmeshed in the Shadow Fringe, the abandoned city was a perfect base for the leadership of the Jaezred Chaulssin, as they took to calling themselves, but it was too dangerous a locale in which to raise the next generation of assassins." |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Nov 2008 18:03:21 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:08:28
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House Jaezred was formed by the Church of Vhaeraun, not the Jaezred Chaulssin. Here is something that you missed:
The Jaezred Chaulssin are a secretive, hidden order of assassins who claim descent from the ruling House of the ancient city of Chaulssin and the shadow dragons who once enslaved the City of Wyrmshadows.
I have noticed that you change your information to try to prove me wrong, yet, it only serves to continuously prove you wrong. Let me show you:
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-You have your information incorrect, then.
-To quote the product directly:
"In the Year of the Crimson Thorn (792 DR), the priesthood of Vhaeraun revealed that the ranks of the Chaulssinyr leadership had been heavily infiltrated by the malaugrym. After a day of bloody battles, the shapeshifters were unmasked and put to sword, but only at the cost of many lives and the collapse of the city’s patriarchy. In response, the Church of Vhaeraun assumed power and founded House Jaezred, an elite brotherhood of assassins trained to ferret out and kill shapeshifting interlopers."
You quoted somethin I had in this post, yet you failed to fully understand what it read.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Again, straight from the product:
"[i]The Jaezred Chaulssin are a secretive, hidden order of assassins who claim descent from the ruling House of the ancient city of Chaulssin and the shadow dragons who once enslaved the City of Wyrmshadows.
To repeat this yet again, House Jaezred was formed by the Church of Vhaeraun. The Jaezred Chaulssin was formed to spite their former Shadow Dragon slavers. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Nov 2008 18:17:00 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
House Jaezred was formed by the Church of Vhaeraun, not the Jaezred Chaulssin. Here is something that you missed:
The Jaezred Chaulssin are a secretive, hidden order of assassins who claim descent from the ruling House of the ancient city of Chaulssin and the shadow dragons who once enslaved the City of Wyrmshadows.
-Which nearly all Drow-Dragon residents of Chaulssin or Chaul’mur’ssin can claim. This isn't anything particularly relevant.
-Again, House Jaezred is the Jaezred Chaulssin:
"In the Year of the Shadowkin Return (1136 DR), House Jaezred returned to the City of Wyrmshadows and established the House of Hidden Masters in the heart of ruined Chaulssin. Enmeshed in the Shadow Fringe, the abandoned city was a perfect base for the leadership of the Jaezred Chaulssin, as they took to calling themselves, but it was too dangerous a locale in which to raise the next generation of assassins."
"To avoid civil strife and to fulfill the Chaulssinyr’s debt to the Masked Lord, the patriarchs of House Jaezred agreed to return to Faerûn, where they would work to undermine the rule of the Spider Queen. In so doing, they reduced the chance of fratricidal warfare with the Church of Vhaerun and gave hope to the long-nurtured dream of the Chaulssinyr of returning to the Material Plane. However, they also began to distance themselves from the Masked Lord and his followers."
"The Patron Grandfather is wholly committed to the ideals of the Jaezred Chaulssin, and he views House Jaezred as the living extension of his will."
-House Jaezred was formed by the Church of Vhaeraun, to seek out and destroy impostors that infiltrated the ruling echelons of the city of Chaul’mur’ssin:
"After a day of bloody battles, the shapeshifters were unmasked and put to sword, but only at the cost of many lives and the collapse of the city’s patriarchy. In response, the Church of Vhaeraun assumed power and founded House Jaezred, an elite brotherhood of assassins trained to ferret out and kill shapeshifting interlopers."
-Thus, using the laws of logic, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C. If House Jaezred is the same group as the Jaezred Chaulssin, and the Church of Vhaeraun founded House Jaezred, then the Church of Vhaeraun founded the Jaezred Chaulssin. It's not particularly dizzying or puzzling. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Nov 2008 18:26:46 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:27:16
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| Yet, the Church of Vhaeraun did not found the Jaezred Chaulssin, only House Jaezred. House Jaezred is a power base which the Revered Grandfather uses as an extension of his will. After all, he is the oldest member of the Jaezred Chaulssin. If you wish to use logic, then logically understand that The Jaezred Chaulssin are a secretive, hidden order of assassins who claim descent from the ruling House of the ancient city of Chaulssin and the shadow dragons who once enslaved the City of Wyrmshadows. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Nov 2008 18:29:24 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:43:39
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Well, the information is certainly DETAILED in this scroll.
I believe it comes down to this. Vhaeraun helped establish the Jaezred Chaulssin and, although some senior clerics of the Masked Lord would like to claim them as his weapon, the leaders have positioned themselves so that they are not directly linked to him. They goals may coincide most of the time, and they definitely benefit each other, but Jaezred Chaulssin seems to want to be free of being beholden to any deity. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 18:49:29
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| In a sense, that is correct, however, they did not call themselves the Jaezred Chaulssin at that time when House Jaezred was founded. It was then, when they returned to Chaulssin that they named themselves after the clan of Shadow Dragons as well as the ruling House and the city which they enslaved. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Nov 2008 18:52:32 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3738 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 19:33:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Yet, the Church of Vhaeraun did not found the Jaezred Chaulssin, only House Jaezred.
-Which we have established is the Jaezred Chaulssin. Again, the Jaezred Chaulssin is what House Jaezred became when they came to the Material Plane. The bank I use, Commerce Bank, recently changed names, and is now TD Bank. Same building, some employees, same politices, same ATM machines, same everything. Different logo.
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
House Jaezred is a power base which the Revered Grandfather uses as an extension of his will. After all, he is the oldest member of the Jaezred Chaulssin.
-Yes. Now, how would the leader of the Jaezred Chaulssin be able to view House Jaezred as an extension of his own personal power (ie, he calls the shots on his own), if House Jaezred and the Jaezred Chaulssin were not one and the same, the latter an extension of the former?
quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
If you wish to use logic, then logically understand that The Jaezred Chaulssin are a secretive, hidden order of assassins who claim descent from the ruling House of the ancient city of Chaulssin and the shadow dragons who once enslaved the City of Wyrmshadows.
-You keep harping on this, and as I said, this is not particularly relevant to the discussion at hand. Any Drow-Dragon in either Chaulssin or Chaul’mur’ssin can claim parentage from the Draconic Clan Jaezred. This does not mean that the Jaezred Chaulssin was founded to spite the Shadow Dragons that once lorded over the residents of Chaulssin, before they were freed from the yoke of oppression. The name 'Jaezred', yes, was selected because of the Dragons of Clan Jaezred that the Drow-Dragon overthrew, and the Drow-Dragons' Draconic blood within them, but this was also so in the name in the case of House Jaezred, which the Jaezred Chaulssin emerged from. The House Jaezred came to the Material Plane to "free" the Drow race from the oppression of Lolth, in a manipulative and covert way, such assassination, proxy warfare, and mercantile market control. House Jaezred returned to Chaulssin in1,136 DR, established the House of Hidden Masters in the desecrated church of Lolth as a center of power, and began calling themselves the Jaezred Chaulssin, to denote that they were House Jaezred in the city of Chaulssin |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerûn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerûn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
Edited by - Lord Karsus on 12 Nov 2008 19:35:45 |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 19:38:20
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| This is the last time I will post an explaination in this thread. Dagnirion, it means exactly that. The words state as such and it is not my fault you fail to understand them. Now, I will let this scroll get back on topic, since I am tired of arguin with you. You chose not to understand the info that was given to you. Your fault, not mine. |
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCDonLNKf6_KA9Qlal3Qu3zQ?view_as=subscriber |
Edited by - Drakul on 12 Nov 2008 19:56:37 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 04:17:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Indeed. After commenting on finding out from us that things were on the website, Eytan was the first to come in and share the link to the new WE:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070425a
-Thats awesome. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 04:20:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One more comment like that and I'm locking this thread. 
-Can we play nice people please, I would like to see this thread go on. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 05:01:01
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If one wanted to take the Jaezred Chaulsinn into the Post spell plague realms I suppose you could. While the resident clergy would be rendered somewhat inert, I don't think that Vhaeruan's demise would cause them to stop plotting and scheming to take power in more drow cities.
I mean, really, come on. We know they take control over much of the ruins of Ched Nasad and that they incite the Vhaeruanites and Gahandaurans (sp?) in Erndylyn to overthrow the Lolthites. While the loss of their favored diety would be a blow, I don't think it would cripple them enough lose the gains they made during Lolth's Silence. Nor do I think that they all would have converted to Lolth when Vhaeruan got the axe. Tiamat perhaps :P |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 17:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
Vhaeraun's demise would not stop them, for they have distanced themselves from him and any other form of religion. They use House Jaezred as their power base and the Revered Grandfather is the arm that guides their blades.
If you wish to use that in your personal version of the Realms, by all means do so. 
I'd just like to point out that if one decides to go along with Vhaeruan's demise and wishes to have the Jaezred Chaulsinn in their game/story/whatever, it is possible to do so, regardless of how closely tied one wishes them to be to the Masked Lord's worship.
I think that even without Vhaeruan's favor (as much or as little one wishes to make of it), they would have survived in some form or another to 1479 DR and would quite possibly still have the gains they made during Lolth's Silence. Bare minimum, they would have gone out with a bang instead of a fizzle  |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 19:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Drakul
I am aware of that, however, I am tellin you that which is contained within the WE. The Church of Vhaeraun may have helped them form House Jaezred, but they do not use His Will when it comes to governing their group.
Been down this road before. It was an interesting trip, but I don't feel like going back there again quite so soon.
I believe the point the good lady is making is that there are some DM's that (OMG!) ignore canon and might tie JC closer Vhaeraun than the web enhancement implies.
Just because it's published, doesn't mean EVERYONE has to obey it as law. If that were true, most of the scribes here wouldn't be around at all after the 4E Spellplague.
So, to finalize: We get it. You don't think JC is tied to Vhaeraun at all and have the documentation to back it up. Doesn't mean you have to be so defensive if someone thinks outside the box. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Drakul
Senior Scribe
USA
367 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36781 Posts |
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Detailed info on the Jaezred Chaulssin
Topic Locked
