| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2007 : 15:54:33
|
| Sleyvas, Dart, thanks for the kind words. Very glad you enjoyed the book. |
 |
|
|
shandiris
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 13:03:21
|
Absolutly loved the book Richard, very nice.
Thanks :) |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2007 : 15:39:26
|
| Glad you liked it, Shan. |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 12:10:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Glad you liked it, Shan.
Richard, am I right in thinking that Szass has earned the eternal hatred of the church of Kossuth now? The Firelord doesn't seem to be the forgiving type... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2007 : 13:36:05
|
| I think that's a reasonable assumption. |
|
|
|
Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2007 : 00:16:26
|
Well, I was a little apprehensive about picking up the novel, at first. While Richard Lee Byers (always have that middle name in there) has been a good author, the writing style never really clicked with me. I also am not a fan of novels where lots of bad guys are the main characters (WotSQ is a good example.) So I hesitated a while before buying and reading the book.
It took me two days to read it.
I am not sure if Richard has improved, or if I am just getting a better handle on his style of writing, but I had a hard time putting it down. I agree with Rino that more dialog and intrigue definitely made the book better. I also like Szass as a villain. He seems so with it. I just hope he does not go the way of Sammaster and gets impatient or forgets the protagonists are there. The characters seem much better than in Rage of Dragons.
Another item I liked was that the protagonists, while showing many good qualities, show a few ruthless ones also, like the beer poisoning. I had some fears that they would be too... evil I guess and I am glad that they aren't. It would have been very easy to make it a very depressing novel with undead doing... undead things. I do wonder about Mirror, however. He seemed on the verge at one point in remembering who he was, along with comments about his shield and what device could have been on it. It would be interesting to see how that turns out.
I also am curious that since the clergy of Kossuth have taken a big hit in the battles, if they will continue to be a main religion. Perhaps Bane or some other religion will fill the void. "Since Kossuth cannot save you, we will." sort of chant to the common masses.
Definitely a good read. |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
|
|
|
The Grumpy Celt
Acolyte
46 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2007 : 05:17:49
|
I’ve been debating on getting this one.
In terms of war, don’t forget Mulhorand. They’ve got a recently rediscovered gate to the old regional capital inside Thay, vast armies, a grudge and don’t like the way They is screwing with their efforts to conquer Unther.
Heh. Aglorond, Rashamen and Mulhorand tag-teaming mostly-undead Thay. Heh.
|
"It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye."
-Vecna |
|
|
|
Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 11:03:32
|
| Great Novel as usual. I actually hope Tam gets sole leadership of Thay he should have had it long ago in my opinion.I don't think Szass would be bent on war but more on futhering magical studies, people forget he has his own deals with Mystra and the Chosen so attackin Algaround probaly won't happen or the Rasheman. He would probaly steal their magical secrets and use and improve on them but all out war nah |
My god says you can't do that |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jul 2007 : 14:00:35
|
| Mkhal, Ttizzt, glad you both enjoyed it. |
|
|
|
Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2007 : 23:46:22
|
I'm thoroughly enjoying Unclean now. I have about 80 pages left, and I'm loathe to read too quickly. ;)
I must agree that Malark Springhill is incredibly interesting. The idea that he could out-think Szass Tam is fascinating to me. My eyes are glued to the pages dealing with the monk.
Really, all the characters are fantastic. The zulkirs, the tharchions, the bard, the griffon rider, the clerics of Kossuth (who are very well done), the undead, Xingax...
When he was first described, I thought, "Oh my God, it's an atropal!" They I stopped and realized that it was prorably the scion from Libris Mortis. I am noticing a lot of new monsters are taken from Libris Mortis and MMII (murk, skin kite, swarm shifter, gravecrawler, banshee, blood fiend), which I think is cool. It's interesting seeing these rare monsters in action.
Unclean is giving me some great inspiration for when I introduce Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
I'm very much looking forward to the next two books. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 06:20:37
|
| Glad you're enjoying it, Crust. |
|
|
|
Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2007 : 18:33:34
|
Just finished it. It ended superbly, without leaving me wanting more, yet giving me all the more reason to immediately order the next one.
Not that everyone should do this, but I've been keeping The Year of Rogue Dragons in mind while reading Unclean. Though I certainly noticed a similarity in style and voice, I didn't see any repeating character types or plot. Certainly a plot as detailed as in YoRD. I did have to flip back and make sure of things as it unfolded. I didn't even notice the cast of characters back there until I was about halfway through the book!
Another similarity I couldn't help but notice is just as YoRD seemed to have a lot of Draconomicon info, so too does Unclean draw from Libris Mortis. Not just LD, of course, but novels have inspired me to use the sourcebooks. I'm definitely introducing a blood fiend into the mix (the dire wolf "animal companion" of Strahd). I'm also making Strahd a swarm shifter (bats and rats).
The interaction between zulkirs, the way everyone bowed or knelt before them, calling them "Your Omnipotence," all of it was so solid. I was so eager to see how they were portrayed in Unclean, and it was great. Unclean and Storm's tale in Silverfall are my favorite "sourcebooks" for Red Wizards.
The combat scenarios were fast-paced and didn't drag through every single minute shift of one's waist, etc. etc. That gets old fast, especially when the combat is hard to imagine or just looks plain silly. I was very impressed with Thrul's death scene. I thought it was, well, cool.
I really, really got a kick out of the menagerie of undead detailed. Very interesting.
The whole zombie death camp idea was also interesting. I took a look at the atropal scion in Libris Mortis, and I thought, "Now that figures." Create undead, animate dead... It's all there. I love seeing that in WotC novels. Its part of the reason I read them. This is the sort of thing I do as DM. Look at a monster and think, "What can I build around this thing?" It's so much fun doing that and seeing it done well. It's often not done well, and that irritates me, but I wasn't irritated at all with Unclean.
Xingax was especially interesting because I used an atropal from the Epic Handbook as the BBEM of my epic campaign. I ran the abomination as a cooing, burbling, though hideous, still-born fetus that unleashed ray attacks and gazes, etc. When the PCs started attacking it, it would thrash around screaming and crying, then continue unleashing magic. ;) It was literally Acererak sort of cloned and still-born, brought back in some dark rite... you know... so I thought it would be prudent to play it as infantile. Xingax seemed more like Krang (TMNT) or Master (Thunderdome). I got a kick out of him.
Some GREAT JOKES tossed in there as well. One that comes to mind at the moment was when Brightwing commented on a wizard's lack of featherfall. I was laughing out loud in Starbucks when I read that. I also enjoyed Samas Kul getting verbally owned by Lallara.
Highly recommended.
|
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 28 Jul 2007 18:34:40 |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2007 : 01:35:54
|
Thanks for the kind words, Crust. I'm glad you liked it.
That list of important characters was at the front of the book when I turned it in. I'm not sure why WotC thought it was a good idea to relocate it to the back, but I guess they had their reasons. |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2007 : 01:41:43
|
I didn't liked Year of the Rogue Dragons, but I definetly loved this one, for the same reasons many others have said here.
I'll have to think what made them so different in my eyes, because I don't think it's only about the plot/location/characters.
|
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2007 : 21:30:41
|
This book is everything I was hoping for. Lots of Focus on the Zulkirs and Szass Tam in particular.
Sadly, it does not bode well for Tam that just about every chapter is from the Point of View of people who want him dead. If the point of View generally refers him as the bad guy everyone wants to stop, Im not sure how he could win unless the main characters all die off or the author wants to write a dark book:)
Personally, I want Tam to win. A united Thay would make the surrounding countries tremble. Heck, everyone wants change in this region. Its been the same old "red wizards are bad and fight like drow" crap for too long. We want some unified destruction and Simbul forced to flee aglarond or Die.
|
Edited by - Firestorm on 18 Aug 2007 01:43:53 |
|
|
|
initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2007 : 17:39:07
|
Firestorm Wrote:
We want some unified destruction and Simbul forced to flee aglarond or Die.
We Do? Was there a memo?
|
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2007 : 01:01:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by initiate
Firestorm Wrote:
We want some unified destruction and Simbul forced to flee aglarond or Die.
We Do? Was there a memo?
Not that I'm aware of. No offense, Firestorm, but you don't speak for everyone. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2007 : 18:44:01
|
| Firestorm: Glad you liked it. |
|
|
|
Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 11:34:26
|
I read this novel recently and quite enjoyed it. Some interesting thoughts and conclusions have been raised by others here and I have a few of my own for consideration:
Szass's motivation - Unification? - he's partly succeeded by transforming several power factions into 2 groups - his own camp and his opposition (Flass/other Zulkirs). Does he see himself in the mold of another Thayd and is acting pre-emptively to strengthen Thay in the face of Mulhorand's resurgence and potential threat (majority conquest of Unther and desire to reclaim a rebellious province) or to extend Thay's borders at a neighbouring powers expense (an extension of Thayvian chauvinism - which comes across in the novel), or is it simply a serious power-play?
Can Szass win a full-scale civil war? Probably - every enemy he kills has the potential to join his army. The opposition have only one real winning strategy which is to destroy Szass himself - which doesn't take into account that they also have to dispose of his phylactery to actually get rid of him. I imagine that this would be extremely difficult.
I don't think a resumption to the pre-conflict status quo is now possible - the other Zulkirs would know that Szass would only assassinate them over time. External interference is possible but unlikely - I don't think the opposition could sell the idea of foreign troops (specifically historical enemies eg. Rashemen, Aglarond, Mulhorand, Chessenta) operating openly without offending Thayvian nationalism/pride - and besides why would these powers interfere when they see Thay self-destructing in civil war?
The undead factor is interesting too - don't forget Velsharoon - god of necromancy, who also just happened to be a one-time former rival of Szass' for the position of Zulkir. He hasn't appeared but it would be interesting to see what happens if he turns up in some capacity - interesting personal conflict for his portfolio.
Speculation on the consequences of defeat for Szass - necromancy is forbidden as a school of magic in Thay by the other Zulkirs?
Btw - appreciated the irony of Malark's opposition to Szass - he dislikes undead and thinks everything should live and die in its own season - a comment coming from a man who is older than Thay and doesn't age...
|
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2007 : 23:40:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by initiate
Firestorm Wrote:
We want some unified destruction and Simbul forced to flee aglarond or Die.
We Do? Was there a memo?
Not that I'm aware of. No offense, Firestorm, but you don't speak for everyone.
Now now:) I wasn't attempting to speak for everyone.
However, since it has existed, Thay has been a mageocracy of a nation slated as THE most badass nation If they stopped infighting.
After almost 2 decades of the same old story arc, I kind of want to see how the world of forgotten realms would be affected if Thay was united under Szass Tam, a guy almost powerful enough to fight chosen of mystra:)
Thay is such a military powerhouse that envisioning such makes my mouth water just thinking of it. |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2007 : 01:18:51
|
| Theophilus: Glad to hear you liked it. |
|
|
|
Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2007 : 13:20:53
|
| Richard: Hi - and thank you for writing it! Look forward to the next instalment :) Any teasers? :P |
|
|
|
Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2007 : 20:45:41
|
<<The undead factor is interesting too - don't forget Velsharoon - god of necromancy, who <<also just happened to be a one-time former rival of Szass' for the position of Zulkir. He <<hasn't appeared but it would be interesting to see what happens if he turns up in some <<capacity - interesting personal conflict for his portfolio.
Yessirree, THAT would be the highlight of my day to see that interaction. Is Tam doing all this to please Velsharoon by putting a spotlight on necromantic power (and thereby making his enemy turned god think him indispensable)? Is he doing it instead to build up his own power base out of jealousy? Motive is a very interesting factor here.
|
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2007 : 22:59:24
|
Jeez, you already know Book 2 will be all-out civil war in Thay with all the principal characters from Book 1 in the thick of it. What else do you need?
Seriously, I'm reluctant to spoil any of the surprises, so I'm going to pass on providing teasers. I'll just say that I think Book 2 will deliver the stuff that anyone who enjoyed Book 1 is hoping to see, but also some stuff that you probably aren't expecting. |
|
|
|
Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 00:58:57
|
Richard: :) Thanks.
But I do have a serious question for you if you'll indulge me:
Will the 4th ed changes impact on your novels? i.e. will you have to tinker certain aspects to fit within those new parameters? I'm curious to hear how it impacts, if at all, on your writing, especially mid-series.
Sleyvas:
I was thinking something along the same lines - it would be in Velsharoon's interest to help Szass if Szass could establish Velsharoon's worship amongst the living population as a primary faith. An interesting twist would be that this would give Szass access to clerics/priests which could benefit his forces significantly (considering that just about every other faith is against him currently) and throw up a few suprises for his enemies. (It's also interesting that it seems that Velsharoon is apparently the only Thayvian to have assumed divinity (Is this correct?) and his interests in the whole conflict are multi-faceted (portfolio,national,personal).
*There is also another totally far out idea which I was considering which is that Szass isn't actually Szass - imagine that Szass was somehow secretly destroyed/confined and someone/thing had assumed his identity and provoked the civil war to seriously damage Thay (possibly irrecoverably). There are a number of parties which would benefit from something like that happening...
|
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 01:39:16
|
| Theophilus: At the risk of annoying you, I'm even going to pass on answering that question. Sotty about that, but I really do think keeping my mouth shut about...well, damn near everything, really...is the way to maximize your enjoyment of the trilogy. |
|
|
|
Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 02:29:03
|
Richard: No problems - perhaps you'll revisit the question after the series?
*Its more a question concerning the mechanics of writing i.e. suppose you present your idea and the editor nixes it based on system mechanics/viability and how you deal with this creatively especially mid-series etc.
I'll leave it until '09 though! :) Keep up the great work! |
|
|
|
Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 04:56:04
|
| Sure, let's talk about it when the trilogy's done. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11692 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2007 : 14:10:48
|
>>Theophilus: At the risk of annoying you, I'm even going to pass on answering that >>question. Sotty about that, but I really do think keeping my mouth shut about...well, >>damn near everything, really...is the way to maximize your enjoyment of the trilogy.
Ah, but Richard, speculation is half the fun (maybe even 3/4's <g>). We wouldn't want hints (or at least I wouldn't). In the end, you throw ideas out there, and sometimes someone comes up with something you had never thought of..... like Theophilus just brought up about Tam not necessarily being Tam..... very interesting idea! It couldn't be ORDINARY compulsion magic if he were instead being controlled, but I can see someone using his phylactery somehow to steal his body and confine his "essence" (reluctant to say soul with undead... though it would seem the most appropriate word). In fact, it would be very similar to how I've thought old Velsharoon attained his divinity (using Mellifleur's phylactery). Whether it were Vel or Larloch, both would be or should be capable of this... and both had recent interaction. Plots within Plots, very nice. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Unclean: Chapters 12 - 15 & Epilogue
