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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 21:21:09
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| How many countries have powerful female mages as their queens? The Simbul over Aglarond, Alustriel over Silverymoon, Queen Sambryl over Impiltur (she was high level in early editions), the the Queen that took over in Tethyr. Alusair was ruling Cormyr. Just a thought that this might instill more respect for females as well. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 21:34:03
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
How many countries have powerful female mages as their queens? The Simbul over Aglarond, Alustriel over Silverymoon, Queen Sambryl over Impiltur (she was high level in early editions), the the Queen that took over in Tethyr. Alusair was ruling Cormyr. Just a thought that this might instill more respect for females as well.
Zenoba of Palmyra, Semiramis of Assyria, Olypias of the Alexandran Empire, Nefertiti, Cleopatra, and Meryt-neith and Hatsheptsu of Egypt, Elen Luddyog of the Celts, Cartimandua of the Brigantes, Boudicca of the Iceni, Artemisia of Halicarnassus...
I guess these women are indicative of the rampant gender equality in the Ancient World..  |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2012 : 23:54:19
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| In some cultures, yes, most certainly. The Celts allowed women to become Druids, which was tehir judicial/priestly/lorekeeping tradition, and also to fight alongside the men in times of war. They also owned their own property (as did Roman women, BTW), and several of the Greek and Roman goddesses (and their respective clergies) had just as much power as any of the males. Vesta's temple virgins come to mind, as well as Brigid's priestesses, the temples of Athena and Venus, etc. Then we have Joan of Arc (putting aside her eventual fate), Cathrine the Great, three of England's rulers (Victoria, and Lizzie I and II), among others. Women on the whole might not have had the same respect or pwoer in some cultures, but that in no way means that inequality was ever absolute. Japanese Daimyo's, (And at least one female in the Imperial line), NA wise-women, etc. The list goes on. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
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Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 02:22:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Oh, indeed... people in Cormyr would be *absolutely shocked* by gender INequality.
That's why they have had so many queens... and why Alusair ascended fully to the throne of Cormyr after Azoun IV's death... and why Alusair's reign as Queen of Cormyr was so long and prosperous.
Alusair didn't want to be queen, and she wasn't in line for succession anyway. Azoun V was the true born son of Tanalasta, who was Azoun IV's heir. Alusair would then be next in line until Azoun V had children of his own, whether they be male or female. He was surrounded by powerful women throughout his reign, including Filfaeril, Myrmeen, Caladnei, and Alusair herself. Cormyr was HEAVILY ruled by powerful women in the post Azoun IV era.
Cormyr as a nation is, indeed, an often patriarchal monarchy, it's true, but it's SUBSTANTIALLY less misogynistic in its basis and execution than any monarchy in our world. Queens in the RW have sometimes ruled, very rarely ruled alone, and any power they derive is heavily steeped in powerful male figures in the government that they align with. Not so in Cormyr--there, female children can inherit just as readily as male children.
What I would have liked to see happen is Azoun V be a girl child, rather than a son, but I suppose there were already a great many powerful female characters in Cormyr at that point, they wanted to create some kind of balance.
Also, briefly on my point about female heroes: in the RW, female heroes do occur in history (mostly in legend of dubious veracity), but they are substantially rarer than male heroes. Having studied literature and myth (I do have a degree, after all), I would postulate that 95-98% of the heroes of our literature, myth, and legend are male, and the female characters are almost universally supporting characters, victims of villains, villains themselves, or damsels in distress needing the hero to rescue them. Even female heroes are still often dependent upon male figures to carry the day.
In the Realms, that isn't the case. Male heroes and female heroes are--if not actually 50%/50% in the history, I'd have to do the math--significantly more equal in number.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
All sarcasm aside, besides the creator of the Forgotten Realms insistent statements to the contrary, there is no evidence (in the published Realms) to suggest that the Forgotten Realms are any less misogynistic than the real world.
This thread has been full of examples of the Realms being less misogynistic.
Here's another one. I've written five and counting novels in the Realms, not to mention short stories and gaming material galore, and *I* will testify that the Realms have far less deep seated misogyny than the real world. It's in the authorial guidelines, actually, and the editors have pointedly made it clear that real world misogyny is not to be tolerated in publications.
Also, what's the point of sweeping in to offer a broad generalization to refute the entire discussion of the thread? If you don't agree but aren't willing to offer any support for your claims, then why are you posting here?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 06:35:30
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I think people get too carried away with the belief that gender equality exists in the Realms. It is absolutely true that 100% gender equality exists in some places in the Realms. However, it is equally true that there are places within the Realms where there are strong divisions along gender lines.
The Realms is not a homogeneous culture, and different cultures have different degrees of gender empowerment. Things aren't black and white - they're shades of grey.
The most obvious example of gender inequality is drow society, but even among the drow there are varying levels of empowerment depending on the settlement you visit. However, they're the most obvious example.
There is also inequality among the genders when it comes to Wild Elves and Svirfneblin.
Among humans, take a look at Calishite culture.
Page 81, Races of Faerun:
"Calishite arrogance is nurtured and codified in the class and gender divisions within their society, with a person's station at birth playing an important role in how he or she is measured. Although few speak of the class system in Calimshan or the lesser status of women, most Calishites live out their lives according to their station, risking death or enslavement if they do not."
Then there is of course Mulhorandi Culture.
Page 184, 3E FRCS:
"Mulhorand has long been a patriarchal nation, with the first son of a family inheriting two-thirds of the family's property, the second son getting the remainder, and all other children left to fend for themselves. With the removal of the deific manifestations and influence on Pharaoh Horustep III by foreign mercenaries, Mulhorand's laws have started to enforce equality between the sexes."
These are just some of the most obvious examples. There are more, and it's important to keep in mind that this is a shades of grey situation. It depends on where you are in the Realms, and who you're talking too.
I believe among humanity gender equality is most obvious in the places that were most strongly influenced by elves.
Page 52, Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves:
"The role of religion in elven life is great, though it surprises many humans to find that gender assignments are quite blurred among the elven Seldarine. To the elves, the androgynous nature of the gods is not confusing, and most of their statuary and temple mosaic art presents images of the gods either in both ideal male or female forms or one androgynous form, all of breathtaking beauty. In fact, elven gods are often given three or more forms, either embodying their symbols in massive terms or taking on a nonhumanoid form of a creature or thing within their purview (such as Rillifane as a great oak).
Gods cannot be quantified in mortal terms, a basic tenet of elven faith. When they see humanity's gods narrowly defined in patterned sex roles, elves are both confused and irritated. They cannot believe the humans' hubris to presume the gods only look just like them."
In places where Elves had a great deal of influence over humanity - the North, the Moonsea, the Dales, etc. - I think gender equality is most prevalent. Moving outward from there, though, I think you begin to see gender lines becoming more codified, more obvious, more rigid, until you start to encounter cultures such as the Calishite which has historically been rather hostile toward elves.
So, short answer? Gender equality in the Realms doesn't exist universally throughout the Realms as many people seem to believe. It varies greatly depending on both culture and location. Among humans gender equality seems most prevalent in places where there has been or is an active mixing of the various humanoid races, and it appears as if Elves were most likely the most influential in spreading notions of gender equality to humans. |
Edited by - Aldrick on 16 Nov 2012 06:39:42 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 10:40:12
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| Aldrick - good point about Calimshan and Mulhorand. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 13:08:28
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ESdB, I commented on this thread because the preponderance of evidence in published Realmslore indicates that the Realms are at least as misogynistic as the real-world.
A few of the most conspicuous examples in Cormyr include its vibrant sex-trade, patriarchal monarchy, and the establishment of women's role as 'keeper of the house'. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 14:38:00
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
ESdB, I commented on this thread because the preponderance of evidence in published Realmslore indicates that the Realms are at least as misogynistic as the real-world.
A few of the most conspicuous examples in Cormyr include its vibrant sex-trade, patriarchal monarchy, and the establishment of women's role as 'keeper of the house'.
Your examples prove nothing. There have been women rulers of the kingdom, and there are women in many prominent positions -- lords of cities, and high ranks in the War Wizards, for example.
The sex-trade in the Realms includes both men and women, and many sex workers have chosen that line of work for themselves. Some of them do quite well, in that trade, as well.
And nothing forces women to stay in the home. If women can be lords or high ranking wizards, it's obvious that there is nothing mandating that they stay at home.
So until you can provide explicit, canon examples -- and not vague, easily disproven generalities -- then I see nothing to indicate that your claims of inherent misoginy have any validity to them. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 15:06:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
I rationalized it as Bruenor being overly protective of his daughter and holding her back from the fight(though if I recall he actually invites her along, she declines, and he agrees it's for the best)[...].
Yep, that's how it happened. And it doesn't add up, now that we know that Bob evolved her character into so much more of an assertive warrior woman.
And when the guys are all preparing to leave Icewind Dale to go look for Mithral Hall, she just helps to pack their bags for them. There's nary a complaint from her that she doesn't get to join them. That doesn't add up, either.
So, retcon mode on, I see it happening much like in the book, but with some additional conflict between father and daughter, occasionally. She didn't simply obey and go along in Sojourn or The Halfling's Gem, so she shouldn't have in TCSh, either.
quote:
If an adaptation were to be made of the Crystal Shard, I doubt they'd explore this. Interesting as it may be to answer the question, I'd imagine they'd simply have Cat participate in the action scenes just like any of the men. Avoiding the appearance of sexism and appeasing fans of the later books where Cat is an undeniably capable warrior would take priority over being faithful to the source material in this case.
Sadly, you may be right. I am imagining Keira Knightley's Guinevere from the Roman-themed film King Arthur. Some storytellers would rather push a strong female image than bother with the toilsome limitations of traditional gender roles.
And there's also the very real, and not necessarily philosophically loaded at all, fact of screen running time. Stuff has to be cut from books in order to make adaptations all the time. A studio may just find that there's not enough time to cover every interesting theme that comes up when reading, even if they wanted to.
But I sure wish the responsible parties did it, anyway. Like Erik said:
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I think Cat's story is ultimately a good one for women, proving that in the Realms, they are free to rise as far as men, under their own steam, without gender-based restrictions.
It would be a good heroic tale for women, as well as blurring some lines on the goodness of Bruenor. We've all said that D&D character alignment is a tricky thing sometimes, and it makes for good drama to explore that sort of thing. Bruenor wouldn't be evil for wanting to hold her back; he could have very good reasons for doing so. But nevertheless, doing so would still have the effect of holding her back from her full potential, as well as depriving the Companions of a very important future team member. How do the two characters, themselves, see that? How do they discuss it? How do they work their way through it?
And would moviegoers see the fact that the characters did eventually get through it as sign of the openness of the Realms, or just as proof that gender inequality is still a problem that must be surmounted, even in fantasy worlds? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 15:33:38
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Wooly Rupert, by your logic, the real world must *NOT* be misogynistic because, as I have noted above, there are many examples of women in positions of leadership...
The "Happy Hooker" mythology, as propagated in the Realms, is in and of itself and example of the (thinly) veiled misogyny in the Realms.
In Cormyr, Volo notes that 'women who keep the house' sell various products out of the home. No mention of men who 'keep the home'.
In addition, it is apparent in the Realms that many of those women who are 'powerful', in addition to being dramatically outnumbered, are without fail portrayed as 'beautiful', if not a complete sex-pot. From Fox-at-Twilight to Alustriel and others, the 'power' is predicated by the beauty... another example of misogyny.
You will probably not agree with me, primarily due to you apparent lack of education in women's issues.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
ESdB, I commented on this thread because the preponderance of evidence in published Realmslore indicates that the Realms are at least as misogynistic as the real-world.
A few of the most conspicuous examples in Cormyr include its vibrant sex-trade, patriarchal monarchy, and the establishment of women's role as 'keeper of the house'.
Your examples prove nothing. There have been women rulers of the kingdom, and there are women in many prominent positions -- lords of cities, and high ranks in the War Wizards, for example.
The sex-trade in the Realms includes both men and women, and many sex workers have chosen that line of work for themselves. Some of them do quite well, in that trade, as well.
And nothing forces women to stay in the home. If women can be lords or high ranking wizards, it's obvious that there is nothing mandating that they stay at home.
So until you can provide explicit, canon examples -- and not vague, easily disproven generalities -- then I see nothing to indicate that your claims of inherent misoginy have any validity to them.
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Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 16 Nov 2012 15:36:44 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 16:21:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, gender roles and gender inequality aren't the same thing. If the "she-dwarves" who defied their traditional role were treated with disrespect and rage, that would be gender inequality, but I don't see any statement that this was the case. I like to think that the majority of the dwarves in that instance were very happy with the situation at hand, and quite accepting of female dwarves who wanted to go be warriors.
I understand in theory that there is a difference between gender roles and gender inequality.
But I'm not necessarily seeing the difference in olden times, with the dwarves. Dwarves Deep implies that females were given limited, familiar, traditional gender roles in times past:
quote:
Dwarves were once more carefree. Though they lived in danger, beset by enemies in the Deep Realm, they were far more numerous. No dwarf thought of his Folk as a people in decline, or that someday there might be no dwarves. Clan rule was stronger, and females were kept busy in the home, all the while guarded by males who mined and fought. (DD, p6: "Changing Roles")
Back before the dwarven fertility problems, strong clan rule was cited in keeping females busy in the home, while being guarded by the males who fought and went out mining. As a matter of strong clan rule, females were kept in a domestic role.
That seems to hint at some lower level of opportunity for she-dwarves of yore. And lesser afforded opportunity would seem to indicate inequality.
Now, I'll agree with you that dwarves seemed to be happy with that arrangement: the passage calls them "carefree".
But it is the decrease in fertility which seems to have lead to a decrease in strong clan rule, and that decrease in strong clan rule seems to have lead to a decrease in keeping she-dwarves in the home. Female dwarven activism (i.e., defiance of limited gender roles) rose in inverse proportion to clan rule.
We're not given any indication as to the extent that dwarven feathers were ruffled by she-dwarves daring to defy their traditional domestic role and instead venture out to fight and mine, so I can't say how many male dwarves were happy with that, in days of yore. I also can't say how happy they were about it just before the Thunder Blessing, either.
But if dwarves were formerly generally happy with limited gender roles, then it seems that activist she-dwarves would've probably upset the cart, a bit. Wouldn't there be a transition period during which the social change had to work itself out, and disgruntled traditionalists had to learn to accept, and then embrace, that change? (I've never heard that dwarves are generally all that fond of change, so that's why I'm leaning in this direction).
Catti-brie's own coming of age within a dwindling dwarven community, in the early days of the Thunder Blessing, seems to be a good opportunity to delve deeper into this exact, under-explored subject.
quote:
There is a balance to be struck when the survival of the species is at question, but generally, I think there's lots of room for equality there.
Consider that DD goes on to say:
quote:
Females, who from a cold-blooded view of breeding to preserve the race should now be guarded more than ever, have taken advantage of failing clan power to achieve equality with their malefolk. She-dwarves today fiercely hold roles as warriors and adventurers, often paying with their lives. (italics added; DD, p6: "Changing Roles")
That she-dwarves used the degradation of clan rule "to achieve equality" would seem to imply that they did not enjoy equality, before.
However, it is not entirely clear from the passage whether the intent was to say that she-dwarves had achieved a theretofore nonexistent equal status, or merely to say that they had achieved equal (or identical) roles (see the passage section title "Changing Roles").
Also, there's:
quote:
Some [females] founded their own bands, and have found great success as the increasingly rare dwarven women have gained power and influence to become equal partners to the menfolk in every way. (italics added; DD, p14: "Brotherhoods")
That passage says that she-dwarves have gained influence to become equal in every way, which would seem to mean that they achieved equality not only in opportunity, but also in terms of status. And that, in turn, would seem to indicate that they did not previously enjoy such, in times of old.
At any rate, she-dwarf defiance of clan rule and traditional gender roles appears to have been what finally brought gender equality to dwarfkind:
quote:
Today, male and female dwarves are identical in rights, except in the clergy. Strong personalities of either sex dominate family and clan life. (italics added; DD, p6: "Changing Roles
Today, female dwarves have identical rights, and therefore equal status--as opposed to yesteryear.
So perhaps it was Catti-brie's defiance of Bruenor's insistence upon traditional gender roles which finally got Clan Battlehammer to "get with the 14th century (DR)", so to speak?  
quote:
Cattie was raised by a very protective father of a much more durable race (dwarves vs. humans), who saw his daughter as very breakable and something dear to be protected, just like most fathers do to their children, male or female.
I've always thought of his protectiveness merely in personal terms--one father to one daughter, afraid to watch her grow up and possibly leave.
And what if the low fertility rate and dwindling population of the clan had something to do with it, too? Bruenor might've simply been trying to keep Cat safe, much as he probably would've done with any female dwarves in the clan, in order to safeguard the clan's faltering chances for future offspring.
You point out yet another dynamic of their particular relationship: she would've seemed physically weaker and more fragile to him, since she was a human girl. This might've triggered an even greater degree of protectiveness in him, pushing him into the realm of over-protectiveness.
(I wonder when Clan Battlehammer learned of the Thunder Blessing? News might've traveled really, really slowly all the way up there to Icewind Dale.  )
quote:
And like most (many) fathers, he was over-protective toward her, and she eventually proved herself and transcended his aegis. I think Cat's story is ultimately a good one for women, proving that in the Realms, they are free to rise as far as men, under their own steam, without gender-based restrictions.
I'll agree that women are free to rise, in the Realms. But the dwarven perspective would seem to show that the ascent takes a struggle, though. It's not an easy-pass express elevator.
And methinks that struggle, as I am figuring it with Catti-brie, only makes the story more interesting. If everything were hunky-dory from the beginning, gender-role/-status-wise, then I think the Realms would be lacking a little drama and angst. (And let's face it: I'm a longtime Drizzt fan, so for me, angst is a good thing! )
EDIT: I got to thinking. Maybe the reason why dwarves used to restrict female dwarves to domestic roles was because of a lower birth rate of females. We don't hear about dwarf lasses nearly as often as lads. The reason for that has been speculated as possibly because there might actually be fewer of them, or they might simply dress and carry themselves like males. Well, what if there truly are fewer female dwarves? Male dwarves might then have become overprotective with them all, limiting them to safer jobs in the home place, rather than out in the field. This would provide a practical explanation for traditional gender roles in dwarf communities, without the questions of moral alignment I mentioned earlier. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 17 Nov 2012 21:08:03 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 17:12:12
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Dopplegangers.
And other things that can change their forms. In a world where some things can be either sex, the issue becomes a bit moot.
In Crown of Fire, we have a female Zhentarrim Wizard that poses as a man, because ONLY men rise in the ranks (thats not an assumption - it clearly states that). her two female apprentices - whom she uses as 'sex toys' - are aware of her true sex, but don't seem to care. The novel doesn't really get into if she ever takes female form while with them sexually. The point is, when folks can change, does it matter?
I am a heterosexual male, and yet, if I lived on a world where an old goat like Elminster could turn into Pamela Anderson, would I really care? If what I am holding in my arms is a healthy, buxom, gorgeous woman, does it matter if it is occasionally something else? Hell, folks sleep with dragons in FR! People aren't really at all concerned by "whats on the inside" - thats just a whole lot of Dr. Phil BS. People just want something hot in their beds.
I think in FR, just like here on Earth, "women have to try as hard to be thought of as half as good as a man". I think that just may be part of our DNA coding (going back to the whole tribal/Alpha male thing). You will never truly get rid of that - we are hard-wired that way. However, as intelligent beings, we can override our natural impulses and move past them. I think this is what happens in FR, just as it happens everyday in our RW.
A female fighter walks into a den of male fighters, and gets snickered at. She walks up to the meanest looking one and removes the top two buttons of his shirt with her sword, before he even realizes she drew her weapon. Everyone in the room reassesses her, and they move on, accepting her as one of them. Thats just how it works. FR can be considered very modern and forward-thinking because they've apparently come to this point with a much more primitive culture. On the other hand, humans have been 'civilized' in FR for FAR longer then they have been here on Earth, so one might say they were even a little backward, and should be culturally more advanced (which they just may be, in some regards).
@The Hidden Lord - Everyone has different opinions about equality, so I don't think its very fair to call someone else's ideas about it a "lack of education".
I don't consider myself a "male chauvinist pig", and yet, I hold doors open for women. None of them seem to mind that (and if they did, I'd probably avoid them after that, thinking they were 'a bit nuts'). When I see someone broken-down on the side of the road, I consider stopping only if they are female, which I realize is terribly wrong, but I can't help that. I can tell you, the few times I have stopped to help, they were awfully glad of the assistance. I know for a fact that a healthy female will NOT change her own tire, if they can get some man to do it by acting 'all girly'. I have discussions with my sisters about this - they get all offended if they think they aren't be 'treated as equals', and yet, they fully expect men to pay when they get taken out. They like to have their chairs pulled out for them - I've yet to see someone complain about that (though I get odd looks sometimes, because thats very old-fashioned).
So you can talk all you want about equality, on many levels (not just sexual), but the bottom line is we are wired to act a certain way, and until our brain overrides our natural compulsions, we WILL behave just that way. It doesn't matter if it is FR or RW, and it doesn't matter how many laws you create. In fact, the existence of those laws themselves speaks volumes about how people feel - if people really believed in equality, we wouldn't need such laws.
And why are nearly all of FR's females beautiful women? For the same reason why drug companies use 'hot young females' as their reps (and they DO - I used to do catering for them). A man will sit and listen to a woman he likes to look at far more readily then one he doesn't. Thats just more of our hard-wiring - we can't help that. If a woman is a knock-out, we will hang on her every word, even if we know she is only talking to us to sell us something (I saw my son listen to a Johovah witness for over an hour at my front door, because she was insanely hot, and I've done the same exact thing myself with a Mormon).
Men like to look at and follow attractive females. It doesn't make us disgusting - it makes us animals... which we are. Its a physical reaction we have to consciously override, and in most cases we simply do not want to. Smart women understand this, and wield it like a weapon, and get VERY far. And you don't have to be born good-looking - you merely have to create the illusion (and I've seen that as well - women who drove men crazy, and yet weren't really all that physically attractive).
Is Alustriel truly that beautiful? With all her money, power, and magic, she could be fairly plain waking up in the morning. Is Myermeen Lhal really that hot? Or has she just managed to enrapture all the men around her (and when a large group of males think a female is hot, newcomers will automatically think so as well)? If you appear desirable, you will be - your outward appearance will be judged differently because of that. A confident woman becomes a dangerous (and beautiful) thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 Nov 2012 17:18:46 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 17:29:50
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It's clear we agree, Markustay, that misogyny is rampant in the Realms.
I would disagree with you on the extant to which magic and magical creatures effect the lives of average Faerunians, from canon, but whatever-whatever in your game. |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 09:35:53
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It's in-depth topics like this that keep me coming back to Candlekeep. Discussions like this really help players to flesh out their own versions of the Realms. Here you get differing opinions with varying degrees of 'evidence and eloquence' and I love you guys for it. 
I think it's clear that some degree of inequality exists in the Realms, depending upon where you go. And I believe that what we view as 'traditional' gender roles are also fairly common, at least among human populations. That aside, it is also abundantly clear, IMHO, that inequality/misogyny/gender bias is less prevalent in the Realms.
Mr. Greenwood has made this fairly clear as his vision for the Realms over these past decades and, for the most part, I prefer his vision to most others. But when you're sitting around that table with your friends...IT'S YOUR REALMS. Make it what you and your players want it to be. The rest of us don't matter when it comes to that.
For the record: I do believe a measure of "political correctness" when into some elements of the game (and I could provide a small bit of evidence for it...but this isn't the place for that debate).
@Markustay: Elminster turning into Pamela Anderson is still, well, Elminster...think I would have to pass on that one Besides, I think Pamela Anderson is  Give me Gillian Anderson (aka Dana Scully from X-Files) anyday! |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 16:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
@Markustay: Elminster turning into Pamela Anderson is still, well, Elminster...think I would have to pass on that one Besides, I think Pamela Anderson is Give me Gillian Anderson (aka Dana Scully from X-Files) anyday!
It depends on when we're talking about... Pamela Anderson now, the Frankenchic, no. Original, or just getting famous Pamela Anderson? Now that's negotiable! |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 18:47:27
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My own tastes tend toward Little Nancy Callahan Jessica Alba. I figured Pamela Anderson was a very generic reference. 
My point was that in the right set of circumstances, a very hot looking female (who may not actually BE female) might be preferable to some of the things I've woken up alongside. 
How many cases of Doppleganger coin-lasses are there in the Realms? Of half-dragon children? Of Yuan-ti and other crossbreeds? Fiendish & elemental trysts? The 'icky factor' in the Realms is set pretty damn low. When dudes are willing to sleep with 50 ton reptiles and worship half-spider babes, considering a normal female your equal is pretty tame stuff. On a world where something can physically turn into something else*, I really doubt a lot of taboos would hold up for very long. It would NOT be a matter of a cross-dressing Elminster, the Old Mage would actually BE Pamela Anderson (physically). I would hope the voice would change as well.. that would be a deal-breaker.
On-Topic:
"Be a good lass and make me some dinner" would probably go over just as well in many parts of the Realms as it would here in most parts of the U.S. There is equality, and then there is the stupid way people act. Your not going to get past that in whatever world you are on.
*In a few episodes of Star Trek, they demonstrate how transporter technology can be used for various things, including curative (removing a cancer en route, for instance), or physically changing a person into something else (Picard did this at least once). That means if two federation dudes get drunk and hijack a transporter, the less drunk of the two can change his buddy into his 'dream girl' and go to town. Very yucky, but possible, given the tech. Its too bad that ST steers away from freaky sexual situations - they tend to skirt-around such issues. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Nov 2012 18:49:32 |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 18:57:09
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quote:
In the Realms, that isn't the case. Male heroes and female heroes are--if not actually 50%/50% in the history, I'd have to do the math--significantly more equal in number.
I'd love to see the actual numbers for the Realms. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 20:54:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
My own tastes tend toward Little Nancy Callahan Jessica Alba.
[...] The 'icky factor' in the Realms is set pretty damn low. When dudes are willing to sleep with 50 ton reptiles and worship half-spider babes, considering a normal female your equal is pretty tame stuff.
I just imagined Lolth looking like Jessica Alba.
Or Eva Longoria.
*Rowrrr*
And I just stumbled across this little nugget on my search through The Orc King regarding Baffenburg:
quote:
"Half-orcs?" Bruenor roared back at him. "Half-orcs're half-humans, and that lot'd take on a porcupine if the durned spines didn't hurt so much!" (TOK, P4:C23)
quote:
That means if two federation dudes get drunk and hijack a transporter, the less drunk of the two can change his buddy into his 'dream girl' and go to town. Very yucky, but possible, given the tech. Its too bad that ST steers away from freaky sexual situations -- they tend to skirt-around such issues.
It's the Transgender Transporter.
The Mark IX TGTP: Transgender Transporter. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 17 Nov 2012 21:38:52 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 02:00:47
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I agree with many of the points that Aldrick presented. And good job on those quotes on the Mulhorandi and Calishite cultures, Aldrick. However, if we take a look at the Realms as a whole, women in general are hardly given equal status or treatment as the men. Which is no wonder, really, as most of the Realmsian cultures are imported from or based on the RW, which is hardly gender-equal either. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 02:05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That means if two federation dudes get drunk and hijack a transporter, the less drunk of the two can change his buddy into his 'dream girl' and go to town. Very yucky, but possible, given the tech. Its too bad that ST steers away from freaky sexual situations - they tend to skirt-around such issues.
Interesting and convenient. A shame that I don't really like Star Trek. So even a cat or a cockroach can be turned into a Kate Beckinsale or a Hugh Jackman? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 18 Nov 2012 03:32:20 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 03:03:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I agree with many of the points that Aldrick presented. And good job on those quotes on the Mulhorandi and Calishite cultures, Aldrick. However, if we take a look at the Realms as a whole, women in general are hardly given equal status or treatment as the men. Which is no wonder, really, as most of the Realmsian cultures are imported from or based on the RW, which is hardly gender-equal either.
That's largely my feeling as well. At least among humans. Like I said, gender equality is varying shades of gray. It depends on your location as well as the culture. My overall feeling is that even in the most gender equal places among humans in the Realms, women still largely act in culturally accepted roles, but have the opportunity to break out if they so desire.
Also, among those cultures where females are considered equal to males (such as Silverymoon or Waterdeep), the equality certainly increases as you climb the economic ladder. It's certainly not universal for all women.
People frequently overlook the importance of birth control in the liberating of women. More wealthy women would have better access to birth control methods than poorer women, and as a result poorer women would invariably be tied down having and raising kids.
The same is true in the real world as well. Poorer women are less equal in society than more educated and wealthier women. In order to achieve greater equality among women in the Realms across a broader scale some method of birth control would have to be widely known, be highly effective, widely available, and insanely cheap.
I'm pretty sure that things like lambskin condoms exist in the Realms. I'm also sure there are various herbal remedies that can cause a woman to have a miscarriage (herbal abortion). These two methods are likely the most widely available. Magical methods also exist, obviously, but there is no way a commoner is going to be able to afford magical birth control - at best this is something limited to the upper middle class and upper classes. It's also no doubt the most effective method. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 06:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
I'm also sure there are various herbal remedies that can cause a woman to have a miscarriage (herbal abortion).
The wording is kinda vague, but I think Dahlia resorted to something like this in order to induce early labor and delivery of her unwanted baby in the novel Gauntlgrym. She did not want to wait for the Shadovar to return and take him from her by force for their own purposes.
quote:
The roots tasted bitter--she couldn’t help but gag as she stuffed one after another into her mouth. But the Netherese would return, the elders assured her. They knew where she was and knew she carried the child of their leader.
[...]
She felt the pangs in her abdomen soon after, the terrible convulsions, the tearing agony of childbirth through a body too young to accept it.
But Dahlia didn’t make a sound, other than her heavy breathing as she worked her muscles and pushed with all her strength to get the beast child out of her. Covered in sweat, exhausted, she at last felt the rush of relief, and heard the first cries of her baby, of Herzgo Alegni’s son. [...]
She didn’t know what to think, and took a tiny measure of comfort in hearing the women discussing their success, for she had beaten the return of the father and his brutes by several tendays.
Dahlia rested back her head and closed her eyes. She couldn’t let them return. She couldn’t let them determine her life’s path. (Gaunt., P1:C1)
Dahlia was a common moon elf. She had access to the herbs of the field.
That her son turned out to be horribly disfigured may have been the result either of being born premature like this, or of subsequent physical trauma at the hands of his deranged mother. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 17:39:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That means if two federation dudes get drunk and hijack a transporter, the less drunk of the two can change his buddy into his 'dream girl' and go to town. Very yucky, but possible, given the tech. Its too bad that ST steers away from freaky sexual situations - they tend to skirt-around such issues.
Interesting and convenient. A shame that I don't really like Star Trek. So even a cat or a cockroach can be turned into a Kate Beckinsale or a Hugh Jackman?
They obviously can't get into very much detail about the tech (although more then you'd think), but it has to do with mass as well. Using the replicator tech - which is related to transporter tech - they can create just about anything but need 'raw material' to feed into them - you cannot simply create matter out of nothing. I am not sure how such things would work with living, organic creatures. Pikard was changed into a large beasty (to prove a point to some 'primitives'), but IIRC it was about the size of a troll, so it could have just had less density and used Pikard's mass. A cockroach turned into Jessica Alba (and at this point I am starting to draw a line what I'd be willing to having relations with) would have to have a very low density, unless mass could somehow be added. It also would not affect the creature's intelligence (although theoretically they should be able to increase the brain capacity). They should also be able to create perfect clones. They do have a rejuv process - that should be related to transporter tech as well (because you are literally replacing all of your cells with brand new ones each time you transport). People in ST do live to 200+ years if they take care of themselves (which most apparently do - no 'fatties' in the future). Hmmmm... just realized - it would also eliminate the need for plastic surgery and things like liposuction & Gastric bypass. That could be why all the humans in ST are so physically fit. You can 'make adjustments' to anything you are 'beaming' (I once saw them remove the effects of a weapon blast during transport).
At that point, humans have become like gods. If the tech works the way they've shown it does, people could be immortal (and yet, they still show them age and die).
Also, they've perfected 'solid hologram' technology, which means the need to turn your buddy into a Playboy centerfold isn't there - you can already have whatever you want, whenever you want. I am not sure why people in the future even bother having real spouses and children - you could just create the perfect family. They've even been able to replicate sentience within the holograms, if you want them less robotic and more spontaneous.
There is a level of tech so high that it blurs the lines between magic and technology. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 18:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Hmmmm... just realized - it would also eliminate the need for plastic surgery and things like liposuction & Gastric bypass. That could be why all the humans in ST are so physically fit. You can 'make adjustments' to anything you are 'beaming' (I once saw them remove the effects of a weapon blast during transport).
Ah, that's how Kirk never caught anything, despite sleeping with every alien girl he could find! I always thought it was an incredible vaccination program, but now I see that he'd just beam back to the Enterprise and leave the alien STDs behind! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 22:09:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They do have a rejuv process - that should be related to transporter tech as well (because you are literally replacing all of your cells with brand new ones each time you transport). People in ST do live to 200+ years if they take care of themselves (which most apparently do - no 'fatties' in the future).
You're forgetting about old Scotty, when Geordi discovered him preserved inside a transporter. Bubba Scott was a big ol' guy, by that point. 
quote:
At that point, humans have become like gods. If the tech works the way they've shown it does, people could be immortal (and yet, they still show them age and die).
Yeah, Bones McCoy died of old age back in the first ep of TNG, didn't he?
Scientists have associated a buffer material (called telomeres) at the end of chromosomes with aging. When cells divide and replicate, it is the telomeres which shorten, in order to spare the cells' actual genetic material, itself, from being compromised. But the telomeres can only shorten so many times before cells begin to degrade that genetic material, too, and so the cells become no longer viable. When enough cells become unviable, the organism ages.
'Twould seem that ST transporters, modifying cells as they do, could re-lengthen telomeres ad infinitum, rendering future people effectively immortal.
(It's just that TV studios can't do that same thing with their actors. ) |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 18 Nov 2012 22:11:46 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Nov 2012 : 22:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
They do have a rejuv process - that should be related to transporter tech as well (because you are literally replacing all of your cells with brand new ones each time you transport). People in ST do live to 200+ years if they take care of themselves (which most apparently do - no 'fatties' in the future).
You're forgetting about old Scotty, when Geordi discovered him preserved inside a transporter. Bubba Scott was a big ol' guy, by that point.
I hear 'transporting' adds a few pounds. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2012 : 00:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
Yeah, Bones McCoy died of old age back in the first ep of TNG, didn't he?
No. He simply went on an extended tour of the Enterprise-D. There's no recorded date for McCoy's death, we know only [within the context of the television series], that he was still alive in 2364.
Of course, the semi-canonical novel Crossover, has the 137+ year old McCoy helping both Scotty and the Enterprise-D crew in 2369, rescue Spock from a dangerous new Romulan plot as a result of the Vulcan's efforts to bring unification to his and the Romulan peoples. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2012 : 01:45:29
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
No. He simply went on an extended tour of the Enterprise-D. There's no recorded date for McCoy's death, we know only [within the context of the television series], that he was still alive in 2364.
Aha. I don't know why I misremembered that.
My point remains, though, that he aged a lot more than we would think likely with the transporter's medical adjustment effect.
I guess the aversion to the transporter that he had in The Motion Picture must've stuck with him, afterwards. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2012 : 16:50:18
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Well met, all--
Just a couple points to address:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
The "Happy Hooker" mythology, as propagated in the Realms, is in and of itself and example of the (thinly) veiled misogyny in the Realms.
The "Happy Hooker" myth is a very loaded, complex issue that I've spoken about at length in the past, and I don't want to go all the way into it at the moment.
Generally speaking, the Realms diminishes the issue of the "Happy Hooker" by making it very clear that sex workers in the setting are very well protected, are generally quite respected (as much as any other mundane profession), are dealing with something not heavily stigmatized (sex), are not themselves stigmatized as "dirty" or "abasing themselves," are both male and female in more or less equal numbers, are often divinely supported (there's an entire goddess or two for them), and (most important of all) are free to choose to go into sex work or not (i.e. are generally not FORCED into prostitution through circumstance).
On that last note, sexual slavery does occur in the Realms (of both men and women), but legal sex work and slavery are not synonymous.
I do think that portraying prostitution in the Realms (where it is a valid, accepted, even empowering thing) in our world (where it isn't, by and large) is extremely tricky, and you can easily do harm by blanket assertions like "Realms prostitutes are happy!" That can easily lead to the miconception that "prostitutes in our world should be happy!" Some certainly are, by the vast majority are still dealing with huge issues that make life pretty miserable.
It needs to be clear that prostitution in the Realms does not operate in really any of the same ways it does in our world.
quote:
In Cormyr, Volo notes that 'women who keep the house' sell various products out of the home. No mention of men who 'keep the home'.
But does he specifically say "men never keep the home"? Didn't think so.
Sure, there are some women who keep the home, but in the Realms, unlike in particularly inequal societies in the RW, female homemakers still have business interactions with the outside world, and they are absolutely not stigmatized (on the basis of being female, at least) to do so.
quote:
In addition, it is apparent in the Realms that many of those women who are 'powerful', in addition to being dramatically outnumbered, are without fail portrayed as 'beautiful', if not a complete sex-pot. From Fox-at-Twilight to Alustriel and others, the 'power' is predicated by the beauty... another example of misogyny.
Since you called down Twilight as an example, I will assert that I specifically state that Twilight is NOT beautiful, only very memorable. Some people have found her beautiful, yes, but some haven't, and that makes little difference in how powerful she is, independently or to those people. Read her first appearance in Depths of Madness.
I have also made it clear that my other female characters aren't beautiful, but they're still powerful. Myrin, for instance, is described as "darling," rather than "beautiful"--by which I mean that she's what we might call "cute" rather than "hot" or "stunning." Fayne considers her true face extremely ugly, in fact, and no one ever contradicts her.
Also, men try just as hard to appear attractive and "beautiful." I write about some pretty hot guys in my novels, who may or may not be conventionally physically attractive.
Also, "beauty" is a subjective measure, which varies depending on the observer. When I write, I try specifically to avoid that word unless I'm discussing how one individual sees another.
Also, it is about so much more than physical appearance, which I endeavor to make clear in my work. The physical appearance is the last quality that makes a difference in a novel, because by definition, a novel is not a visual medium. All I can do is describe a character--it's up to you to determine if you imagine that person to be "beautiful" or not.
Nor do I want to tie up my readers' imagination about the characters--whoever you want to imagine as insanely gorgeous or relatively plain is totally up to you. That's less important than the plot, characterization, and basically everything else that goes into the book.
quote:
You will probably not agree with me, primarily due to you apparent lack of education in women's issues.
I consider myself highly educated in women's issues, and I disagree with you. Alas.
Also, let me reiterate my original point, which is not that the Realms is "free" of sexism or misogyny, but only that such things are substantially LESS common than in the RW.
Arcanamach sums up my assertion clearly here:
quote:
Originally posted by The Arcanamach
I think it's clear that some degree of inequality exists in the Realms, depending upon where you go. And I believe that what we view as 'traditional' gender roles are also fairly common, at least among human populations. That aside, it is also abundantly clear, IMHO, that inequality/misogyny/gender bias is less prevalent in the Realms.
That's what I think, and that's how I write and design in the Realms.
I'm trying to skirt bring RW issues into this, but since we're talking about the Realms as compared to our world, it's difficult to avoid. So I'll keep this very general.
You don't see the Masked Lords in a Realms city like Waterdeep calling for banning female citizens access to herbs for contraception, for instance. Systematic rape is not a weapon of war, and (I have had editors tell me this directly) it is not ASSUMED that rape is a standard thing men will do to women they kidnap. 33% percent of women in the Realms have not been sexually assaulted. Women in the Realms do not make 75% of what men do for the same work. A woman who rises to power isn't widely discredited and discounted as "some b#$%&" and relentlessly marginalized and undermined by her male colleagues JUST because she's a woman.
Sure, there are people in the Realms who are sexist--they look down on the opposite sex or consistently underestimate them. But on a societal level, many countries in the Realms are *relatively less encumbered* (that is, they have significantly less than in the RW) by sexism.
quote:
Mr. Greenwood has made this fairly clear as his vision for the Realms over these past decades and, for the most part, I prefer his vision to most others. But when you're sitting around that table with your friends...IT'S YOUR REALMS. Make it what you and your players want it to be. The rest of us don't matter when it comes to that.
Always true.
I do think there is value to running games that are progressive/forward-thinking in regard to gender issues, as it fosters that kind of thinking among one's friends and makes one more likely to advocate for it (something that is extremely important in our world), and the Realms is one setting that makes that rather easy to do. That's how *I* use the Realms. But as noted above, it is, of course, up to you--not everyone likes to pull social commentary into his/her game.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore
1842 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2012 : 01:35:48
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Just wanted to add a little something to the convo. Someone said that one of the reasons for the Realms being more egalitarian would be the influence of the elves, so I offer this quote from El in Myth Drannor (p. 184, hardback):
Symrustar to Elminster..."Among the People, many males do not believe their ladies really have minds."
There are other references, such as the elven noble ladies who bemoan their "lords" (husbands) not including them in discussions or asking for opinions, etc.
Just some food for thought. I still agree that sexism is less prevalent in the Realms than the RW. |
I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one. |
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Topic |
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What caused FR gender equality?
