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Originally posted by Lemernis

Ed was how old when he was doing this? First dreaming it up I mean.

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Originally posted by Calrond

Dove Falconhand is the only one that comes to mind, and I know she is a 14th level Ranger (2 ED) with a few mage and thief levels mixed in.

Edit: I think it's also mentioned that Dove is a stronger-than-average female. In Silverfall, it's a sort of running joke for a while between some of the Seven Sisters that "at least you don't have Dove's shoulders."

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Originally posted by Kuje
I dunno, many of our ancestors had/have pantheons filled with strong female deities and if you look back into Earth's history far enough you do find some nations that had female rulers and gender equality.

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Actually, Islif Lurelake is a pretty strong female warrior as well (and I do mean physically strong).

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Originally posted by Calrond

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Actually, Islif Lurelake is a pretty strong female warrior as well (and I do mean physically strong).

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Ok, I haven't heard of her, but she sounds like she's worth looking up.

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Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

Actually, Islif Lurelake is a pretty strong female warrior as well (and I do mean physically strong).

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Originally posted by George Krashos

She's married to Doust Sulwood and a retired member of the KoMD. They have a son together who would likely be in his teens now ...

-- George Krashos

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Originally posted by Aginor37

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Originally posted by George Krashos

She's married to Doust Sulwood and a retired member of the KoMD. They have a son together who would likely be in his teens now ...

-- George Krashos

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Ack, spoilage!

Well, it's actually kind of good to know she isn't one of the dead ones. And I am not really complaining about anything, I guess this is one of the risks of hanging out around here while anticipating future novels about "past" realms events and people (the rest of the KoMD trilogy, in this instance). Well, for those of us not up on a lot of the in-game Realmslore anyways.

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Originally posted by Eladrinstar

In, well, most of human history, women have been cruely restricted by harsh social codes. This was probably due to the fact that in physical labor, women are generally not as strong as men. Also, the fact that many offspring are needed caused many women to be pregnant and raising children all the time. However, as the world changes into one where most work is mentally based, women have finally been given their deserved proper rights and the restricting social codes are melting away.

But what of FR. Women in Faerun are, for the most part, allowed to be great religous leaders and get to run around and hit things with swords. My question is Why? Wait, no why is the wrong word. I already know why, so we can play female adventurers.

So, I guess my real question is How?

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Originally posted by combatmedic
•TSR had no commercial incentive to insert a lot of niche material on gender/sex roles in a play aid for an escapist fantasy adventure game built around the central premise of bands of armed robbers killing (and getting killed by) monsters in dungeons.

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Originally posted by Na-Gang

Another factor may have been that the first (and still existing) deities were female - Selune, Shar, and Chauntea. Many strong female deities have followed, being afforded at least equal respect as the male deities, unlike real world religions.

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Originally posted by Thauranil

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Originally posted by Na-Gang

Another factor may have been that the first (and still existing) deities were female - Selune, Shar, and Chauntea. Many strong female deities have followed, being afforded at least equal respect as the male deities, unlike real world religions.

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Actually many ancient pantheons in our world have powerful and important female deities but still treat the common woman quite badly.
For example the Hindu deities Saraswati and Lakshmi are worshiped throughout the country but Indian women still have to face a lot of discrimination in society.

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Originally posted by Calrond

Dove Falconhand is the only one that comes to mind, and I know she is a 14th level Ranger (2 ED) with a few mage and thief levels mixed in.

Edit: I think it's also mentioned that Dove is a stronger-than-average female. In Silverfall, it's a sort of running joke for a while between some of the Seven Sisters that "at least you don't have Dove's shoulders."

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Originally posted by WalkerNinja

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Originally posted by combatmedic
•TSR had no commercial incentive to insert a lot of niche material on gender/sex roles in a play aid for an escapist fantasy adventure game built around the central premise of bands of armed robbers killing (and getting killed by) monsters in dungeons.

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I'm going to disagree with that. Pandering to the social, political, and ideological views of your intended audience is a sure way to make lots of money and have success. D&D thanks to Ed and Gary has always tended to have a techno-progressive perspective on society. Not as heavy handed as Gene Rodenberry's Star Trek, mind you, but in the same vein nonetheless.

Since the mid-80's TSR/WotC/Hasbro has kept very conscious of how their non-fans respond to their printed material, and tried to keep the most controversial stuff out to avoid conservative hysteria.

What I see has changed recently is that the social values of the US have liberalized to the degree that WizBro can start openly incorporating LGBT themes as well as non-white-male protagonists.

So I think that we definitely have to give credit where credit is due. Our D&D forefathers bucked social traditions and gave us a fantasy state of gender equality.

Then our artistic forefathers proceeded to objectify and exploit our equal sisters-in-adventure on the cover of every novel and rule book--so the message is sort of mixed.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

A note about the drow: I think the sexist rigid matriarchy is extremely rare in the Realms, and most people who see that would find it alien to their sensibilities.

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Originally posted by BEAST

Just to buck the prevailing view of general Realmsian equality here a bit, I'll point out that things were not always so peachy in Clan Battlehammer, way back in the day.

If you re-read The Crystal Shard now, you should notice that 21-ish Catti-brie has virtually no impact on the story, and is barely mentioned in any of the action. When Bruenor releases Wulfgar to begin his combat training with Drizzt, Cat taunts Wulf from the dwarven tunnel entrance, but she does not go out with the males. When the dwarves prepare the battleground between the dwarven valley and the capitol city of Bryn Shander, rather than venturing out beneath the monsters' campsites with the male dwarves, Catti-brie remains behind in the valley where it is relatively safe, in case the tunnels need to be collapsed. And at the end, though all of the male Companions depart on Bruenor's quest to find Mithral Hall, she is relegated to cooking, and packing their bags.

For anyone who knows anything about the fiery character of Catti-brie, this has got to be very alarming. She's not supposed to be like that. She's an ornery, stubborn, assertive female, and ordinarily would most likely demand to be a part of the action right along with the boys.

I once asked Bob what was the deal here, and he confessed that he had inadvertently left out any female characters from his manuscript for the novel, and it was his editor at the time, Mary Kirchoff, who recommended that he come up with a female co-star forthwith. He did, but because of the short deadline, he did not have the time to integrate her fully into the existing story, so she ended up being rather minor. She was literally an afterthought.

Bob said that this was not an intentional slight by any means. But at the time, fantasy did not have a lot of strong female leads, so he wasn't thinking along those lines. And with that first book being made in such an amazing rush, he just wrote what he knew: male adventurers.

In the next novel, Streams of Silver, Catti-brie starts out still stuck in Icewind Dale as the males are all off adventuring, but she is thrust back into the action as a result of a forced interrogation by Artemis Entreri. Sensing that her friends and family were in danger, Cat took the bold step of heading off into the wilderness alone to try to warn them. Despite her good intentions, she actually spends nearly half the story as a prisoner of Entreri's. Eventually, though, she breaks free and rejoins the male Companions. At this point, Bruenor's initial reaction is to wonder what she's doing out there, and then he goes into protective father mode, concerned that she's in rough shape, and has obviously been manhandled a bit. She is allowed to travel with the male Companions through Mithral Hall, and even gets upgraded adventuring gear. Nevertheless, despite having made some symbolic strides, in the end, as Drizzt and Wulf head off south to try to track Entreri with the abducted Regis, Cat remains behind--this time, to gather allied forces in order to retake Mithral Hall. Once again, for whatever reason, she is given the safer role, while the guys assume the sexy, glamorous, heroic one.

In The Halfling's Gem, Bruenor is saved and rescued from the duergar-infested Mithral Hall by Lady Alustriel, and then he is reunited with his daughter in Longsaddle, back at the Harpells' Ivy Mansion. He quickly decides that it's time for him to leave and join the other male Companions on their adventure to rescue Regis, without even considering bringing Cat along. She has to take matters into her own hands, and assert her right and duty to become part of the adventure party, because Regis is just as much her friend as he is of the guys. Later in the story, as things begin to heat up between Cat and Wulf, Bruenor lightheartedly chides Wulf that he had better show Cat her full measure of respect, or else she would surely make him miserable.

So 'twould appear that Catti-brie had finally come into her own as a woman, demanding to be treated with equal respect to any of the males in her circle, and at last receiving her due. It did not happen overnight, but gradually, over time. It appears that there was some sort of reluctance to do so at first, whether social or just familial.

And if we go back and re-read the prequel novel Sojourn, we read that 11-year-old young Catti-brie was a very precocious child who liked to explore the wilds of Icewind Dale solo, and who didn't take "no" as an answer from her protective father. Despite numerous admonishments, Cat did what she felt in her heart was right, and even when she was caught violating parental restrictions, she still asserted that she had done the right thing.

So with all that in mind, I have to ask, "What gives?" How could Cat be so assertive at 11, yet so passive and unassuming at 21, and then an assertive warrior woman shortly after? Yes, the RW explanation from Bob about how she was an afterthought, combined with the fact that the prequel was actually written years after he had come up with her character in such an intial rush, explains it all in practical, RW terms. But what gives, in world?

I ask this because I hope that if "they" ever make Drizzt movies based on "The Icewind Dale Trilogy", I think it would be great if they actually explored this aspect of the character of Catti-brie. I think it might be nice to see why she took a background role at one point in her life, and then to contrast that with her snapping out of it and demanding to be treated fairly, for once and for all.

Contrast this with Eowyn of TLOTR, who basically did what Cat did as a child: secretly violate the restrictions imposed upon her by the male authority figure in her life, because she thought it the right thing to do. But to my knowledge Eowyn never took the dramatic step of fully standing her ground and demanding that the king treat her as an equal, with success.

Therefore, I have proposed to Bob that if "they" ever make Drizzt movies, they should explain why Cat took such a passive, background role. I have suggested that, as she was approaching age 21 and perhaps an expectation to fly the coop, perhaps King Bruenor tightened the reins about her, a bit. Maybe it was harsh and overbearing. Or maybe it was more insidious: a scared father pleading with his nearly-grown daughter to play along in a submissive role for him, for just a little while longer. And maybe she--tragically--agreed, so as to not break her father's heart. And maybe Bruenor was completely clueless as to how and why such a request was so wrong.

Bob basically said, "Sure, fine, whatevah; that might just work".

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Dwarves Deep said that female dwarves traditionally stayed home while the males went off adventuring, and that this tradition had become reinforced by the diminishing fertility rates amongst the stout folk. However, with a reduction in organized clan power, individual she-dwarves were beginning to defy the limitations of this traditional gender role, with success. But there still appeared to be a fairly clear pattern, amongst dwarfkind.

That might play a part in the way Catti-brie was raised, as well.

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Originally posted by Dennis

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de BieA note about the drow: I think the sexist rigid matriarchy is extremely rare in the Realms, and most people who see that would find it alien to their sensibilities.

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I say they either don't read enough fantasy novels, or they don't read the right kind. There are many fantasy settings out there where women are portrayed as way, way superior to men, and are worse than drow priestesses.

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Originally posted by BEAST

Dwarves Deep said that female dwarves traditionally stayed home while the males went off adventuring, and that this tradition had become reinforced by the diminishing fertility rates amongst the stout folk. However, with a reduction in organized clan power, individual she-dwarves were beginning to defy the limitations of this traditional gender role, with success. But there still appeared to be a fairly clear pattern, amongst dwarfkind.

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That might play a part in the way Catti-brie was raised, as well.

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Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus

As for the question at hand, I'm not entirely convinced that true gender equality exists in the realms anymore than it does in real life. Now, women can rises to great levels of power, both personal and political, but this is on an individual basis based on merit. When I look at the world at large, when I look at the common folk, the peasants, even large swaths of nobility, I see the same gender roles that exist in reality. Individual women may be able to achieve greatness, but to paraphrase Erik from another thread, adventurer's are the one percent.

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