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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2007 :  00:19:26  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I have several questions regarding Zakhara's Geomancers (from the Ruined Kingdoms boxed set) and the Kadari Necromancer Kings (from the Complete Necromancer's Handbook). I don't have the Lands of Fate boxed set, so I cannot consult it.

IF YOU AREN'T A DM, READ NO FURTHER, PLEASE!!! Nothing which follows should be known by players until their DM exposes them to it through adventures.




YOU'VE BEEN WARNED!





When did the Geomancers reign? What, particularly, made them "evil"? They apparently worshipped Grumbar exclusively, but even in 2nd edition he was considered Neutral, not Evil; did they worship a particularly grumpy Aspect of Grumbar, or did some other, truly Evil deity, impersonate him, perhaps attempting to usurp rulership of the "Earth" portfolio? When were the Geomancers "finally" defeated by Suhail min Zann and the Old Lions (the Ninth of the Nine excluded, of course!)?

When did the Necromancer Kings emigrate to Sahu? At its greatest extent, what lands did their Empire encompass? When did their Empire collapse?

The Ruined Kingdoms obviously had some deities which didn't quite catch on in Faerun, but who was Thasmudyan? Was he an Aspect of Jergal or an entirely different entity? If one wanted to use the Age of Worms adventure path, would he be a good option for Kyuss (moving Kyuss from Chult to Nog and Kadar (or Sahu)?

What, exactly, was "the Old Dynasty" which "the New Dynasty" of the Necromancer Kings supplanted on Sahu? Steve Kurtz says in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook that it is described in Ruined Kingdoms, but I could find no reference to it therein. One might assume that it refers to the Geomancers, but you know what "assume" means! It also seems unlikely that the farisan Lions would have overthrown the Geomancers and then sat idly by while the Necromancer Kings rose a few hundred miles away! Reason would seem to dictate that there must have been at least a generation between the deaths of the last Old Lions and the rise of the Necromancer Kings, since they proclaimed themselves "the New Dynasty" after they had moved to Sahu, and if the term was so significant to them, "the Old Dynasty" likely arose after the overthrow of the Geomancers and lasted for a century or more after the deaths of the Old Lions -- or so I speculate.

By the way, if it wasn't obvious, I really like these two works. I have written rave reviews of the Complete Necromancer's Handbook, and just began introducing its spells into my Faerunian campaign, to the shock (and delight!) of those who learned them, and the others are going to be blown away when they see some of these spells in action. ("Dragon killed your horse, but the body's still here? No problem! Gimme a few rounds and you can mount up again. Just keep telling yourself that it is your horse....") One might hope that Wizards would update these products to 3rd edition rules, but, their publishing policy being what it is, they would probably present it as a "general" book which players would buy in droves, learning all of the deepest, darkest secrets of Zakhara and Sahu (and the School of Necromancy!), which have so far been kept safely hidden from most players for more than a decade. *sigh*



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Thauramarth
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United Kingdom
666 Posts

Posted - 16 Mar 2007 :  22:07:32  Show Profile Send Thauramarth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with your assessment of both the Complete Book of Necromancers (I like the style and atmosphere of Clark Ashton Smith's stories, which permeates CBN) and Ruined Kingdoms. I've always liked Steven Kurtz's work, including his contributions to Dungeon magazine.

I have quickly gone through my (complete) collection of Al-Qadim material, as well as the old 2nd edition Al-Qadim netbook. As a general reply for the timing, I can say that as far as I can tell, TSR never developed a detailed timeline for Zakhara. In fact, there's not even a dating system beyond the months of the year.

Second, if I remember correctly, the Complete Necromancer's Handbook was published after the Al-Qadim line was wound up. The CBN was not meant to be part of the Al-Qadim line, and I think that Steve Kurtz, who worked on the last Al-Qadim supplements, used some of his materials left over after the wind-down of Al-Qadim. The necromancer-philosopher Kazerabet was carried over (and increased in level) from Cities of Bone. Names and places from Zakhara may have been used in CBN, but I think that Steven Kurtz did not intend to maintain continuity with Zakhara (especially as the line was being wound down). Maybe Sahu, the island of the Necromancers, was meant to fit in more with "Dark Zakhara", as described in an article in Dragon 198 by Wolfgang Baur (Kurtz's frequent writing partner).

I also think Sahu as depicted in CBN is not located in the same timeframe as the main Al-Qadim line. In the NPC section of CBN, Kazerabet is described as having studied necromancy for at least two centuries, and she's 20th level; in Cities of Bone, she is listed as 16th level, and her age is undetermined. The background story of the character of Talib finds its origin in the adventure Court of the Necromancers in Cities of Bone, where the player characters are supposed to off Kazerabet's first husband, and Kazerabet offers to marry one of the player characters. At that time, she was still young (I'd guess no more than forty years old), so the setting of Sahu in CBN is probably set at least one hundred and sixty years in Zakhara's future.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

When did the Geomancers reign? What, particularly, made them "evil"? They apparently worshipped Grumbar exclusively, but even in 2nd edition he was considered Neutral, not Evil; did they worship a particularly grumpy Aspect of Grumbar, or did some other, truly Evil deity, impersonate him, perhaps attempting to usurp rulership of the "Earth" portfolio? When were the Geomancers "finally" defeated by Suhail min Zann and the Old Lions (the Ninth of the Nine excluded, of course!)?



No official timeframe exists. Alexei Andrevski established an unofficial timeline, containing most of the elements in the Al-Qadim products. Andrei set the current date of the Al-Qadim campaign to 592, with years being counted from the date of the first Grand Caliph finding the scrolls containing the Lore of the Loregiver. 592 is set to correspond to 1367 DR. All references to years are to the years as set out in Andrei's timeline.

In Andrei's timeline, the geomancers founded both Kadar (in -534) and Nog (in -455). The Lions brought both geomancer empires down in 61.

Concerning Grumbar: in Zakhara, the elemental gods are considered "cold gods", and like all unenlightened gods, they are not considered recommendable. Grumbar is indeed neutral, but Faiths and Avatars listed the alignment of his speciality priests as LG, LN, N, or LE. Perhaps the geomancers favored the LE branch and, in a perfectly LE way, eliminated all non-LE (and probably a considerable number of LE) priests?

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
When did the Necromancer Kings emigrate to Sahu? At its greatest extent, what lands did their Empire encompass? When did their Empire collapse?



Andrei does not specifically mention the Necromancer Kings. The Lands of Fate boxed set does not provide any specifics, but merely mentions the existence of a vanished empire on the island of Sahu. There are no mentions about a dynasty of necromancer kings coming from elsewhere. Andrei considers that the geomancers founded Nog and Kadar, and that the geomancers were brought down in 61 by the Lions.

In my campaign, I have always considered that the Necromancer Kings came from Ysawis, the City of the Dead, after the realm of princess Zoraya collapsed (Andrei lists Zoraya as a princess of Nog, and therefore, by implication, as a geomancer; the inhabitants of Ysawis are noted as having access to necromancy. Cities of Bone states that native Zakharan spellcasters do not have access to necromancy; any necromancers must be ajami (foreigners, or trained by foreigners). IMC, the original necromancer kingdom was a survivor state of the Imaskari empire (the first dynasty), which fled south as the followers of Re and Enlil fled north.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
The Ruined Kingdoms obviously had some deities which didn't quite catch on in Faerun, but who was Thasmudyan? Was he an Aspect of Jergal or an entirely different entity? If one wanted to use the Age of Worms adventure path, would he be a good option for Kyuss (moving Kyuss from Chult to Nog and Kadar (or Sahu)?



Thasmudyan is listed in the CBN as a baatezu lord. I've always thought of him as chaotic, and I have taken him/her/it as an alias of Orcus. I believe (though I cannot be sure, of course), that the name Thasmudyan is very much like the names used by Clark Ashton Smith. I've googled it, and nothing much comes up, really.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
What, exactly, was "the Old Dynasty" which "the New Dynasty" of the Necromancer Kings supplanted on Sahu? Steve Kurtz says in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook that it is described in Ruined Kingdoms, but I could find no reference to it therein.^



Since the Al-Qadim line does not mention the existence of any necromancer kings on Sahu, there's no official old or new dynasty, and no substitution. The best I can think of is that the reference is erroneous, and should have been to Cities of Bone, and the mages of Ysawis and Sokkar (who had access to necromancy)?

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
One might assume that it refers to the Geomancers, but you know what "assume" means! It also seems unlikely that the farisan Lions would have overthrown the Geomancers and then sat idly by while the Necromancer Kings rose a few hundred miles away! Reason would seem to dictate that there must have been at least a generation between the deaths of the last Old Lions and the rise of the Necromancer Kings, since they proclaimed themselves "the New Dynasty" after they had moved to Sahu, and if the term was so significant to them, "the Old Dynasty" likely arose after the overthrow of the Geomancers and lasted for a century or more after the deaths of the Old Lions -- or so I speculate.



No official answer, again. If one accepts that the Necromancer Kings were refugees from Ysawis, the New Dynasty would have arrived prior to the Lions overthrowing the geomancers. I'd say that the necromancer kings kept a low profile, concentrating on their worship of Thasmudyan. Also, since the Lions came from the enlightened lands, a couple of centuries after the destruction of Ysawis, the Enlightened lands may not have had knowledge of the necromancer kings for lack of contact (Nog and Kadar blocking commerce and other contacts).

Zakhara was never as detailed as the Realms were (but then again, Zakhara does not have around 40 years of Ed G. behind it), but I liked it a lot, especially in a darker version as proposed by Wolfgang Baur. The lack of detail on its past allowed me to fit it in with my revised history of the Imaskari empire and its survivor states.

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2007 :  18:58:04  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks! That's a big help. I don't have Cities of Bone, but it looks like a "must buy" for me. Ditto the magazine with Steve Kurtz's article.

Perhaps if there is a show of interest, Wizards will come up with some new Zakhara products.



I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 17 Mar 2007 :  21:14:15  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

Perhaps if there is a show of interest, Wizards will come up with some new Zakhara products.


Not going to happen unless Dragon prints more. People have asked, repeatedly, for 7 years now. WOTC keeps saying, "It'll appear in Dragon."

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  03:18:04  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth

I agree with your assessment of both the Complete Book of Necromancers (I like the style and atmosphere of Clark Ashton Smith's stories, which permeates CBN) and Ruined Kingdoms. I've always liked Steven Kurtz's work, including his contributions to Dungeon magazine.

(snip)

Second, if I remember correctly, the Complete Necromancer's Handbook was published after the Al-Qadim line was wound up. The CBN was not meant to be part of the Al-Qadim line, and I think that Steve Kurtz, who worked on the last Al-Qadim supplements, used some of his materials left over after the wind-down of Al-Qadim. The necromancer-philosopher Kazerabet was carried over (and increased in level) from Cities of Bone. Names and places from Zakhara may have been used in CBN, but I think that Steven Kurtz did not intend to maintain continuity with Zakhara (especially as the line was being wound down). Maybe Sahu, the island of the Necromancers, was meant to fit in more with "Dark Zakhara", as described in an article in Dragon 198 by Wolfgang Baur (Kurtz's frequent writing partner).

I also think Sahu as depicted in CBN is not located in the same timeframe as the main Al-Qadim line. In the NPC section of CBN, Kazerabet is described as having studied necromancy for at least two centuries, and she's 20th level; in Cities of Bone, she is listed as 16th level, and her age is undetermined. The background story of the character of Talib finds its origin in the adventure Court of the Necromancers in Cities of Bone, where the player characters are supposed to off Kazerabet's first husband, and Kazerabet offers to marry one of the player characters. At that time, she was still young (I'd guess no more than forty years old), so the setting of Sahu in CBN is probably set at least one hundred and sixty years in Zakhara's future.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen

When did the Geomancers reign?

(snip)




No official timeframe exists. Alexei Andrevski established an unofficial timeline, containing most of the elements in the Al-Qadim products. Andrei set the current date of the Al-Qadim campaign to 592, with years being counted from the date of the first Grand Caliph finding the scrolls containing the Lore of the Loregiver. 592 is set to correspond to 1367 DR. All references to years are to the years as set out in Andrei's timeline.

In Andrei's timeline, the geomancers founded both Kadar (in -534) and Nog (in -455). The Lions brought both geomancer empires down in 61.

Concerning Grumbar: in Zakhara, the elemental gods are considered "cold gods", and like all unenlightened gods, they are not considered recommendable. Grumbar is indeed neutral, but Faiths and Avatars listed the alignment of his speciality priests as LG, LN, N, or LE. Perhaps the geomancers favored the LE branch and, in a perfectly LE way, eliminated all non-LE (and probably a considerable number of LE) priests?

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
When did the Necromancer Kings emigrate to Sahu? At its greatest extent, what lands did their Empire encompass? When did their Empire collapse?



Andrei does not specifically mention the Necromancer Kings. The Lands of Fate boxed set does not provide any specifics, but merely mentions the existence of a vanished empire on the island of Sahu. There are no mentions about a dynasty of necromancer kings coming from elsewhere. Andrei considers that the geomancers founded Nog and Kadar, and that the geomancers were brought down in 61 by the Lions.

In my campaign, I have always considered that the Necromancer Kings came from Ysawis, the City of the Dead, after the realm of princess Zoraya collapsed (Andrei lists Zoraya as a princess of Nog, and therefore, by implication, as a geomancer; the inhabitants of Ysawis are noted as having access to necromancy. Cities of Bone states that native Zakharan spellcasters do not have access to necromancy; any necromancers must be ajami (foreigners, or trained by foreigners). IMC, the original necromancer kingdom was a survivor state of the Imaskari empire (the first dynasty), which fled south as the followers of Re and Enlil fled north.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
The Ruined Kingdoms obviously had some deities which didn't quite catch on in Faerun, but who was Thasmudyan? Was he an Aspect of Jergal or an entirely different entity? If one wanted to use the Age of Worms adventure path, would he be a good option for Kyuss (moving Kyuss from Chult to Nog and Kadar (or Sahu)?



Thasmudyan is listed in the CBN as a baatezu lord. I've always thought of him as chaotic, and I have taken him/her/it as an alias of Orcus. I believe (though I cannot be sure, of course), that the name Thasmudyan is very much like the names used by Clark Ashton Smith. I've googled it, and nothing much comes up, really.

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
What, exactly, was "the Old Dynasty" which "the New Dynasty" of the Necromancer Kings supplanted on Sahu? Steve Kurtz says in the Complete Necromancer's Handbook that it is described in Ruined Kingdoms, but I could find no reference to it therein.^



Since the Al-Qadim line does not mention the existence of any necromancer kings on Sahu, there's no official old or new dynasty, and no substitution. The best I can think of is that the reference is erroneous, and should have been to Cities of Bone, and the mages of Ysawis and Sokkar (who had access to necromancy)?

quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
One might assume that it refers to the Geomancers, but you know what "assume" means! It also seems unlikely that the farisan Lions would have overthrown the Geomancers and then sat idly by while the Necromancer Kings rose a few hundred miles away! Reason would seem to dictate that there must have been at least a generation between the deaths of the last Old Lions and the rise of the Necromancer Kings, since they proclaimed themselves "the New Dynasty" after they had moved to Sahu, and if the term was so significant to them, "the Old Dynasty" likely arose after the overthrow of the Geomancers and lasted for a century or more after the deaths of the Old Lions -- or so I speculate.



No official answer, again. If one accepts that the Necromancer Kings were refugees from Ysawis, the New Dynasty would have arrived prior to the Lions overthrowing the geomancers. I'd say that the necromancer kings kept a low profile, concentrating on their worship of Thasmudyan. Also, since the Lions came from the enlightened lands, a couple of centuries after the destruction of Ysawis, the Enlightened lands may not have had knowledge of the necromancer kings for lack of contact (Nog and Kadar blocking commerce and other contacts).

Zakhara was never as detailed as the Realms were (but then again, Zakhara does not have around 40 years of Ed G. behind it), but I liked it a lot, especially in a darker version as proposed by Wolfgang Baur. The lack of detail on its past allowed me to fit it in with my revised history of the Imaskari empire and its survivor states.



I read Cities of Bone last night, and I saw where the confusion about Kazerabet came in. The only way that I can think of reconciling the Queen of Ysawis with Vermissa's student is that Talib must be with the party in Ysawis as an NPC, and he must use the dingus, prompting Kaerabet to marry him then. (That also keeps the sword out of the hands of the PCs.)

The Kazerabet on Sahu could therefore be the same person if we imagine her growing bored with Talib and Ysawis and going to Sahu. There, under Vermissa's tutelage, she may have gained levels rapidly. If ten or twenty years separates Cities of Bone from the CBN, then her timeline and Talib's match up. In Cities of Bone the PCs are assumed to be low-level, any way, whereas in CBN they are assumed to be able to at least think about challenging Vermissa. If the PCs have gained enough levels between Ysawis and Sahu that they can think of challenging Vermissa, there's no reason that Kazerabet could not have increased in levels, too. On Sahu, however, she is presented as someone whom the PCs could take on and might defeat; she was certainly more powerful than whiochever PCs she encountered in Ysawis.

I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 24 Apr 2012 :  21:00:11  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Casts *reanimate scroll*

I was looking for info on Thasmudyan, and came-across this old scroll, which could be useful for a 're-imagined' Eminence of Araunt.

Here's what I find intriguing - according to Thauramarth (above), the timeframe for the Sahu campaign would set it closer to the 4e (or even 5e) era!

Considering the number of deities that were 'killed-off' for 4e, its now possible to re-think that odd entry about 'Lovaiatar's Sister'. I figured it happened immediately following the Avatar Crisis (given Cyric's back-down), and that her sister was Kiputyttö (who only suffered her 'final death' post-ToT). Doing a bit of research, I see there were also two other sisters as well (and apparently, at some point, loviatar switched portfolios with one of them). Anyhow, we now have the option any number of goddesses that were removed from the Realms post-plague (and the 'sister' thing could have been metaphorical).

Another interesting thing I note is that Thasmudyan is a Baatezu, who behaves chaotically. This strengthens my own theories about 'Baatezu' (and Tanar'ri) being 'races', and 'Devil' and 'Demon' are more like group-affiliations. So even though canonically (and I use that term very loosely here, since its a sub-setting of a sub-setting, and technically 'core') Thasmudyan is a Baatezu, it doesn't mean he can't be a demon these days (similar to how Graz'zt likes to switch sides).

If Thasmudyan is a truly ancient Baatezu, maybe he was one of those proto-Baatezu (I need some help here - my Planescape novice is showing), or he could have even been some sort of death-primordial (an elemental-lord of negative energy). He may also be an aspect of, or associated with (offspring?) of Tharizdun (although thats just playing off the similarity in the names). I am thinking he is something similar to Pale knight, only for the devils.

Regardless of how you spin it, I just thought I'd drag this scroll back up, just because of the interesting tidbit regarding the timeline irregularities - the 5e team could use Sahu almost completely as-is in their designs.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2012 04:30:15
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1958 Posts

Posted - 25 Apr 2012 :  05:58:17  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Casts *reanimate scroll*

I was looking for info on Thasmudyan, and came-across this old scroll, which could be useful for a 're-imagined' Eminence of Araunt.

Here's what I find intriguing - according to Thauramarth (above), the timeframe for the Sahu campaign would set it closer to the 4e (or even 5e) era!

Considering the number of deities that were 'killed-off' for 4e, its now possible to re-think that odd entry about 'Lovaiatar's Sister' Avatar Crisis (given Cyric's back-down), and that her sister was Kiputyttö (who only suffered her 'final death' post-ToT). Doing a bit of research, I see there were also two other sisters as well 9and apparently, at some point, loviatar switched portfolios with one of them). Anyhow, we now have the option any number of goddesses that were removed from the Realms post-plague (and the 'sister' thing could have been metaphorical).

Another interesting thing I note is that Thasmudyan is a Baatezu, who behaves chaotically. This strengthens my own theories about 'Baatezu' (and Tanar'ri) being 'races', and 'Devil' and 'Demon' ware more like group-affiliations. So even though canonically (and I use that term very loosely here, since its a sub-setting of a sub-setting, and technically 'core') Thasmudyan is a Baatezu, it doesn't mean he can't be a demon these days (similar to how Graz'zt likes to switch sides).

If Thasmudyan is a truly ancient Baatezu, maybe he was one of those proto-Baatezu (I need some help here - my Planescape novice is showing), or he could have even been some sort of death-primordial (an elemental-lord of negative energy). He may also be an aspect of, or associated with (offspring?) of Tharizdun (although thats just playing off the familiarity in the names). I am thinking he is something similar to Pale knight, only for the devils.

Regardless of how you spin it, I just thought I'd drag this scroll back up, just because of the interesting tidbit regarding the timeline irregularities - the 5e team could use Sahu almost completely as-is in their designs.



Fascinating. Who were these other two sisters, Markus, and where did you find them?

Are these, perhaps the ones to which you refer?

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 25 Apr 2012 06:12:02
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  04:45:59  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, four sisters, ALL associated with pain & disease. We don't really know if the other two ever made it into Realmspace (there are only scraps of the Finnish pantheon left), and I suppose Ao's rules made them have to each pick a specific portfolio, rather then share Death, Pain, Suffering, & Disease (almost like an all-female version of the Four Horsemen). I'm thinking the other two would have gotten suffering and death, which is why they aren't around anymore (if they ever were). Interesting, though, that Ilmater (NOT Ilmatar) got suffering, given the similarity to Vammatar (who represented Anguish in the Finnish Mythos), and the name itself... something interesting must have occurred there.

Kivutar was probably just another snook that at some point got conned by Jergal to take on the mantle of Dusk Lord.

Just how I'd spin it, is all.

I really like the Cult of Worms from the CMoN material. I am going to have to use that in the Realms (maybe as the living component to the Eminence of Araunt, which is being discussed in another thread. The Cult of the Dragon would make another interesting component.

Come to think of it, I could say the Cult of Worms was the precursor to the Cult of the Dragon. Perhaps Sammaster discovered some ancient Thasmudyan holy-book (unholy, in this case), and he just modified the rituals and dogma to his own ends.

EDIT: If I borrow some Pathfinder lore, I could also say the other two sisters are ex-horsemen themselves. Not sure if I want to spin it that way, though. I want to connect them, but just not in that manner.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 26 Apr 2012 05:04:12
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Fellfire
Master of Realmslore

1958 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  15:45:47  Show Profile Send Fellfire a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had no idea that Loviatar was an interloper god poaching in the Realms. Thanks, Markus. I may have to find a way to use that. I'd always wondered about that blurb in CN.

Misanthorpe

Love is a lie. Only hate endures. Light is blinding. Only in darkness do we see clearly.

"Oh, you think darkness is your ally? You merely adopted the dark. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but.. blinding. The shadows betray you because they belong to me." - Bane The Dark Knight Rises

Green Dragonscale Dice Bag by Crystalsidyll - check it out


Edited by - Fellfire on 26 Apr 2012 15:47:13
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Ayrik
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Canada
6835 Posts

Posted - 26 Apr 2012 :  16:27:17  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There are many types of devils who are technically not true baatezu, plus a nearly infinite variety of devils who are fiendspawned abominations, crossbreeds, or traitors native to other planar camps and species in the Blood War.

It is possible for Thasmudyan to hold baatezu rank and station without being a baatezu, assuming he had sufficient power to claim and hold the position.

[/Ayrik]

Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Apr 2012 16:29:30
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15711 Posts

Posted - 27 Apr 2012 :  18:06:19  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But 'devil' is the 'job', and 'Baatezu' is the race, so we have a problem there.

You could say that Thasmudyan could be a demon, or Daemon, or even an elder evil, but his race-of-origin should remain Baatezu, or the theoretical Baatorans (proto-devils)... I think thats what Shemmy called them.

So Thasmudyan could be the lawful-evil equivalent of an Obyrith.

Anyhow, its funny how the 'forced' change in fiend titles in 2e winds-up helping us out when we need to fudge stuff. Now that 'Demon' is just a descriptor (someone living in the Abyss), we have an explanation for Lolth being "The Demon-Queen of Spiders", and so on, and so forth. Same goes for devils (So Tiamet could be considered a devil as well).

I'm thinking about making some of the Elder Evils corrupted primordials (which would make them more like uber-demons), and having those primordials hold the portfolios of sins. But if I use the Juadeo-Christian concept of 'Seven deadly Sins', then I could even marry it all to the Seven Lost Gods (who may have gotten those portfolios after the world was split in two). Anyhow, that would make Thasmudyan and Pandorym related... I'd love to come up with five of these beings (each one imprisoned in the Utter East, beneath a blood-seal). Hmmmm.. if Pandorym was imprisoned in Imaskar-proper, then I could assume one other was as well, and then just stick the remaining five down in the Ue.

Hmmm... Asmodeus is linked to Lust... interesting. I may have to go an entirely different way with this - have each of these Elder Evils be a form of 'cosmic evil' - something that has nothing to do with mortals, but violates the rules of the universe itself (which undeath should count towards). Ergo, these are not mortal sins, but rather, deific ones. That means these could be the Shadvari mentioned in F&A - they existed before the universe was formed, and therefor are not obligated to follow its rules.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 27 Apr 2012 18:08:18
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