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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 21:03:17
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I was thinking of good succubi who have children who would normally get the half fiend template.
One: Would they switch to the half-celestial template in the fiend in question was to trade the evil subtype for a good one?
Two: If not, would it be possible with rituals to change the spells and the smite good template? Like those in Savage Species that allow you to change subtypes or gain gills? Perhaps turning to the other strong subtype like Law or Chaos?
Possible uses of this would be Succubi or Erynies that have been redeemed by Sune or Hound Archons and Lupinauls corrupted by Set.
I have asked the sage at the wizards site, but have not gained an answer yet, so I am curious about people's opinions.
Thanks.
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 21:20:39
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Well per what discussions I have seen, the Evil sub-type is genes that have no link with alignment. The same applies to most sub-types.
It clearly can be a problem in some cases of a Lawful-Good Paladin with an Evil sub-type when detecting Evil spell is cast.
Redemption does not be required, short of some way to take away the genes (the sub-type) from a character.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 21:32:35
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This does bring up other questions.
What in game reason could be used to change the home plane of an extraplanar creature? As if subject to Dismissal or Holy Word spell they would be sent to their former home, which might not be a good idea for a LG Demon who would head to the Abyss.
Also what would happen if a Tanar'ri changed their subtype to Eladrin or Loumas (SP, the ghost like demon from FC1)?
My best excuse is using the ritual card from Savage species to make such alteration as they require both XP and GP as well as a ritualist who is likely to know a certain spell or spell type.
Like the Cleric of the alignment domain you wish to change to for the alignment subtype change. That same character could use their powers to change the smiting option of the half-fiend/celestal to a different alignment.
Just some thoughts about this puzzle of mine. I would love to see more answers. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Grehnar
Acolyte
United Kingdom
44 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 22:30:34
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The templates have no link to alignment but do allow for a good way for playing a tortured-soul type PC.
This obviously works for all cases and not just good half-fiends.
Perhaps the characters aren't as powerful or even as useful as they would if the templates did link, but it does make for a more interesting back-story.
As for alignment-shifting fiends, this too sounds like the stuff of campaign backgrounds if not campaigns in themselves it being so unusual. Personally, I would stick with the above and play out the effects of any dramatic changes centre-stage.
The possibilities with 'throw-backs' are endless. |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 14:31:06
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a good Succubus?
how in hell could/would that happen? Why should a Fiend, whose very purpose of existence would want to redeem himself? (talking about redeeming, would that word mean the same for a fiend as to us?)
I suppose, the only good aligement character could be the offspring of a fiend and a human, (Tiefling, perhaps even Cambion) but: HELL, THERE ARE NO GOOD FIENDS!!!!!!!!!!!
Fiends were created out of Larvaes and get promoted to the status of higher Fiends after years of servitude - no "good" fiend would ever be promoted to the status of a Succubus!!!!!!!!!!
Let pure Black stay black (no light at all!) and pure white remain white (all colours combined), especially when dealing with fiends and celestials!!!!!
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'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 14:32:48
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ups, forgot something:
whose very purpose of existence ..... would
I meant:
...whose very purpose of existence is to spread evil, darkness and corruption, would ... |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 14:38:46
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Well, even with being Always Chaotic Evil or Any good there are exception. There is also the fact that some people would love to play characters that are outsider based, which would make them Pc and allowed to make their own alignment.
Besides it was Elminster himself in Azure Bonds that said that Good and Evil isn't always (good or evil). |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 15:24:44
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There are good fiends, just like there are fallen upper planars. Fiends do redeem themselves, but it's rare.
Of course, I'm talking about Planescape material where alignment isn't always black and white on the outer planes. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 15:47:49
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| Well there is Eludecia, the Succubus Paladin, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fc/20050824a , but she is not realm specific. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 16:06:01
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| Fall From Grace was also recently mentioned in the Malconthet article in Dragon 353, although she isn't Realms specific either, it is another non-evil succubus that has been "officially" introduced. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 18:21:46
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To move slightly off topic,
I was working on a rule that might work with trying to convert an outsider from one alignment.
Basically it is a Diplomacy check verse DC 25 plus the hit dice of the creature plus five if complete opposed on the Law-chaos axis plus Five if completely opposed on the Evil-good axis plus 10 if linked to a divinity or paragon of a plane/alignment plus any levels it may have.
Examples:
Turning a Succubus from CE to CG, would be a DC 36. If that same Succubus had 12 levels of Wizard that would be DC 48. If we were to move her to Lawful as well, it would be DC 53. If she was a daughter or servent linked to Malcanthet or Shar, she would need a DC of 63.
This is partly based on the idea that the more powerful an outsider is or the more you try to convert it or the greater the link to a greater power, the harder it is to convert it.
Since level twenty skills peak at 23, you would need at least a roll of 13 to succeed without bonuses. For a level twelve character, that is a lot of work.
The only question is the base DC 25 too hard, just hard enough or too easy. It could be lowered to DC 20 or rised to DC 30, as the DM needs.
Thoughts? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 19:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Fall From Grace was also recently mentioned in the Malconthet article in Dragon 353, although she isn't Realms specific either, it is another non-evil succubus that has been "officially" introduced.
She's originally from Planescape. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 19:46:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
To move slightly off topic,
I was working on a rule that might work with trying to convert an outsider from one alignment.
Basically it is a Diplomacy check verse DC 25 plus the hit dice of the creature plus five if complete opposed on the Law-chaos axis plus Five if completely opposed on the Evil-good axis plus 10 if linked to a divinity or paragon of a plane/alignment plus any levels it may have.
Examples:
Turning a Succubus from CE to CG, would be a DC 36. If that same Succubus had 12 levels of Wizard that would be DC 48. If we were to move her to Lawful as well, it would be DC 53. If she was a daughter or servent linked to Malcanthet or Shar, she would need a DC of 63.
This is partly based on the idea that the more powerful an outsider is or the more you try to convert it or the greater the link to a greater power, the harder it is to convert it.
Since level twenty skills peak at 23, you would need at least a roll of 13 to succeed without bonuses. For a level twelve character, that is a lot of work.
The only question is the base DC 25 too hard, just hard enough or too easy. It could be lowered to DC 20 or rised to DC 30, as the DM needs.
Thoughts?
The Book of Exhalted Deeds has a spell/ritual that can be used to redeem fiends and other evil creatures. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 22:16:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
To move slightly off topic,
I was working on a rule that might work with trying to convert an outsider from one alignment.
Basically it is a Diplomacy check verse DC 25 plus the hit dice of the creature plus five if complete opposed on the Law-chaos axis plus Five if completely opposed on the Evil-good axis plus 10 if linked to a divinity or paragon of a plane/alignment plus any levels it may have.
Examples:
Turning a Succubus from CE to CG, would be a DC 36. If that same Succubus had 12 levels of Wizard that would be DC 48. If we were to move her to Lawful as well, it would be DC 53. If she was a daughter or servent linked to Malcanthet or Shar, she would need a DC of 63.
This is partly based on the idea that the more powerful an outsider is or the more you try to convert it or the greater the link to a greater power, the harder it is to convert it.
Since level twenty skills peak at 23, you would need at least a roll of 13 to succeed without bonuses. For a level twelve character, that is a lot of work.
The only question is the base DC 25 too hard, just hard enough or too easy. It could be lowered to DC 20 or rised to DC 30, as the DM needs.
Thoughts?
The Book of Exhalted Deeds has a spell/ritual that can be used to redeem fiends and other evil creatures.
Just thought about another option if you wanted to role play the contact or do not want to force a redeemption or corruption against a creature's will. Some would consider that an evil act, this way you can convince a being to under go the spell without forcing it.
I figure that it is nice to have options if you want to use them. Or not use them depending on your case.
Anyway any opinions on the idea as a optional rule? |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 00:29:21
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| It's a great question. Personally, I don't really like the idea of forcing someone to be good, even if the being involved is a demon. But on the other hand, if fiends truly are "evil incarnate", maybe using a spell on them to make them be good isn't such a bad thing. After all, they are designed as "guilt-free" enemies to be begin with. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 00:39:42
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Yeah, I would have to think that converting something that literally is the embodiment of Chaos and Evil, not just something that tends to act chaotically and evil, is a whole different matter. That isn't to say that it can't happen, but outside of spells or magic items or the like, it should be a massive undertaking, as you are essentially "converting" them to go completely contrary to their nature.
Which is kind of an interesting thing to ponder, in and of itself. Humans basic nature is to survive, to eat, sleep, find shelter, and reproduce . . . everything else tends to come after at least the basic "survival" level of existance. For fiends, there is no real "survival" level. They don't have to eat or sleep, and its literally their nature to spread evil as defined by the "other" half of their alignment. Talk about an alien mindset.
Okay, enough Maslow inspired pondering . . . I'm through . . .  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 00:48:49
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You know something though? I recall in the Neverwinter expansions Hordes of the Underdark, that at one point of the game the PC is stuck in Cania and meets many devils, of all types, going about their business. One quest involves a stuck machine--it won't work because a little devil's arm is stuck in it somehow. If you can't use your lockpicking skill to get the devil's arm out, the only way to get the machine working is just send the devil through the machine (which grinds him to bits). If you do that, your alignment shifts a bit towards evil...even though that little devil is most likely the embodiment of Lawful Evil.
I think the point of that (though some may not agree with it) is that the character is penalized for showing a lack of compassion, regardless of who's on the receiving end. And of course, by fixing the machine, all you are doing is helping other devils (it's their city). In my opinion, some things don't seem appropriate for a goodly character to do, regardless of who is going to be the recipient...and forcing someone to be a live their lives a certain way is one of them (that is, forcing them to be a certain alignment). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 00:54:44
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True, and I think compansion, or the lack thereof, and the fact that you might actually enjoy the pain and suffering of another being, or be inured to it, is still an "evil." Its not something that will turn you from a shining pillar of LG to LE in a flash, but its a slow creep. A truly good person, I would think, for the most part laments having to kill, a neutral person may be indifferent, but not enthusiastic, and its a bit on the evil side to enjoy it, no matter who the recipient is.
On the other hand, as far as the spell and coverting fiends, here is a thought. Its evil to take away a beings free will, especially long term or in cases of major decisions in their lives (yeah, it may not shift your alignment to cast an enchantment to get a guard to look the other way, but if you use it to have him quit his job, for example, you start veering into the grey area), but if fiends are born evil, and its their nature to do evil, in the manner that their plane is aligned toward, do they fully have free will, and as such, are you really taking away their free will, or are you actually giving it to them? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:06:51
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Ed has commented on using that spell or spells/rituals/etc like that spell and as he said, it basically comes down to the church, the deity, and other factors.
So, it's not a clear cut cause of a good aligned person doing a good aligned spell against an evil aligned being makes that person a little evil. There's tons of shades of grey. If, for instance, Lathander says that his clergy are to redeem fiends using that spell, or a ritual like that spell, and he says it's not an evil act, then it's not an evil act and so there are no alignment penalties.
Ed's reply was in Sept 29, 2005.
Ed further added that Lathander's clergy, and thus Lathander, would have no issue with redeeming a fiend because it's bringing the fiend a new beginning.
This was a add on reply in May 18, 2006.
Myself, I agree, doing that to a mortal would probably make you a bit evil but doing it to a fiend, no way. Course, I had a week long debate about this on the WOTC boards when this issue came up and some people got really heated about free will and converting fiends and how it's evil. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 11 Mar 2007 01:14:37 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:18:21
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| Well spells to free a character of alignment exist, that does not force conversion just offer new choices. Such does not effect free will. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:26:08
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Re: Risen Fiends.
It is possible. The glory of the upper planes may be just as enticing to the fiends as the depravity of the lower planes is to celestials.
Faces of Evil does have some information on risen fiends. K'rand Vahlix is a male risen hamatula who organizes other reformed fiends into celestial armies and protects them from the minions of Zimimar of the Dark Eight and her equivalents in the Abyss. He lives in Bytopia, and he's done so much good that he's probably beyond reproach.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:26:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
To move slightly off topic,
I was working on a rule that might work with trying to convert an outsider from one alignment.
Basically it is a Diplomacy check verse DC 25 plus the hit dice of the creature plus five if complete opposed on the Law-chaos axis plus Five if completely opposed on the Evil-good axis plus 10 if linked to a divinity or paragon of a plane/alignment plus any levels it may have.
Examples:
Turning a Succubus from CE to CG, would be a DC 36. If that same Succubus had 12 levels of Wizard that would be DC 48. If we were to move her to Lawful as well, it would be DC 53. If she was a daughter or servent linked to Malcanthet or Shar, she would need a DC of 63.
This is partly based on the idea that the more powerful an outsider is or the more you try to convert it or the greater the link to a greater power, the harder it is to convert it.
Since level twenty skills peak at 23, you would need at least a roll of 13 to succeed without bonuses. For a level twelve character, that is a lot of work.
The only question is the base DC 25 too hard, just hard enough or too easy. It could be lowered to DC 20 or rised to DC 30, as the DM needs.
Thoughts?
The Book of Exhalted Deeds has a spell/ritual that can be used to redeem fiends and other evil creatures.
An interesting alternative is the "Reforged" template from the 3rd party Avatar Handbook. Essentially, such evil creatures are redeemed against their will. Maelcrexis, the reforged advanced cornugon example, is an interesting character.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:41:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well spells to free a character of alignment exist, that does not force conversion just offer new choices. Such does not effect free will.
That's the spell I'd prefer to use, if I had to make such a decision. I definitely agree that one can look at it from the perspective of fiends being "forced" to be evil and using such a spell is actually freeing them from that.
By the way, I'd agree that this isn't a clear-cut thing and I can see good points on both sides...it's just that forcing someone to act a certain way just isn't something I'd be comfortable with, personally. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 01:55:32
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Ive kicked around the idea of populating Sunes home realm with CG Succubus these arent reformed demons but actually created by Sune for her followers when they enter the after life. Major differents from demonic succubus are as follows
Energy Drain replace with "Love bite" anyone kissed by one of Sunes "Succubus" suffers the effects of an Elixir of Love with following differences.
1) The DC to save against it is 21 instead of 14
2)The being the victim falls in love with is chosen by the "Succubus" at the time of the kiss instead of the next valid creature the victim encounters.
Summon Tanar'ri replace with summon Eladrin (30% chance to summon a Avoral) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 11 Mar 2007 01:56:35 |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2007 : 10:14:01
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| Little bit off topic here, but if a succubus paladin wants to convert back to evil and become a blackguard does she have to make peaceful contact with another evil outsider or does she just have to look in the mirror? |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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Template questions: The children of good Succubi
