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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6684 Posts

Posted - 01 Sep 2011 :  01:53:10  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Haha, welcome (back) to Candlekeep, belgarathmth.

[/Ayrik]
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 30 Jan 2012 :  13:34:56  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm i am gonna have to go with Sune. what can i say i am a sucker for redheads.
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The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1615 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2013 :  15:37:14  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sune for the fact that love, in all its forms, his her purview as opposed to just the lusty side of the coin.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1728 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2014 :  14:31:43  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

For some reason when I read the title of this thread I thought it would involve mud wrestling

Hmm... you think these two may sponsor the Kara Tur event?

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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xaviera
Learned Scribe

Canada
149 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2014 :  17:25:10  Show Profile  Visit xaviera's Homepage Send xaviera a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Sune is about how love can lead you to the truest path of your heart's desire... sometimes even if you don't know it yet yourself. Love doesn't immediately equal sex, at least... not in the truest relationships built upon the love that Sune champions... but it is the beginning point of a sexual aspect for the Realms.

Sharess, the Dancing Lady, represents the notion of fulfillment through hedonism or other bodily and spiritual pleasures... in this case, sex. But it's important to note that some of these experiences can only be enjoyed "to their fullest" (as is the dogma of Sharess) when you've built it up from something else. In the case of sex, this is love, and the notions Sune embodies. Sex with someone you love is infinitely more fulfilling and sensually pleasurable than when it is just something transitory... something that is satisfied at that very moment.

From which, we come to Lliira... she respects the liberty of love and freedom... which through sex... is the end point. The love you share with someone whereupon no care or frustration would dare disturb. It is built upon the fulfillment of sensual desire, through Sharess, which is the result of truest love... through Sune.
quote:
Originally posted by Nerfed2Hell
Sune is clearly the goddess of love... whereas Sharess is the goddess of making love.

They are both goddesses of making love, as they both have their lusty sides and they both enjoy it. They just have different approaches to sex. I think that Sune is more likely to have sex in the context of a relationship, as an emotional connection, whereas Sharess is more about the experience itself (though emotion may certainly be a part of that). Sharess as an individual is, I believe, much more casual about relationships. Sune would say that sex makes a relationship better; Sharess would probably say that sex makes anything better.

quote:
Originally posted by Darkhund
The sharessan bites into the delicious fruit, savouring every drop of juice, every crunch of it. The Sunite watches, and says that its beautiful.

In fact, Sune's portfolio is mostly about beauty, and I think the love aspect is almost secondary. Clearly Aphrodite is the inspiration here.

Sharess, on the other hand, is about sensation, not specifically pleasure. It's just that pleasure happens to be more fun than pain, and sex happens to be the most fun part, so that's what gets played up. It's also easier to get people into the temple by offering them sex than a whipping (unless you're Loviatar, maybe).

Still, for all my affection for Sharess, the original question was 'Who is more skilled at being the Deity of Love.' The 'correct' answer is Sune, but I agree with The Sage and so I picked number three.

quote:
Originally posted by Xaviera
"Those who live closer to the way of Sharess may enjoy the pleasurable aspects of their love more than, say, the romantic [way of Sune]. Those who live along the path of Lliira may prefer to concentrate on the joy their relationships bring. Most importantly, those who live between two roads may value equally any two, or even three, of these attributes of love. Still, anyone who holds love for another will feel some of the blessing of each Goddess..."



Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess

Edited by - xaviera on 13 Jan 2014 17:58:11
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Sandra
Acolyte

1 Posts

Posted - 08 Jan 2015 :  15:59:37  Show Profile Send Sandra a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I personally believe that Sune is with the romantic part, but still, there is place for improvement. I am romantic as well, so, until I can figure it out about their sexuality, I try to figure it out of my own. Really, I am wondering a lots of questions... And I like to play lots of games, especially the killing ones And yeah, speaking about that, I like to watch videos as well, like those found here - link redacted and link redacted. Are you still with the romantic part of it?

Mod edit: Links removed. Not sure if this post is from a real person or a clever spambot, but if it's the former, we don't need links to adult sites like that here. This forum is not the right forum for that material.

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Jan 2015 05:34:24
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
211 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2015 :  00:26:44  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Neither. Love is ugly when stripped of lust and neither divinity embraces the repulsive. Love keeps the wife with her husband after he returns from war maimed and crippled and unrecognizably burned. Love keeps the husband with the wife as a wasting disease robs her of her movement, her vigor, and finally her memories. Love creates bonds that wax and wane but are unbreakable even when it is painfully obvious that two who are in love are just toxic to each other. And there is little more vicious than a one way love that is abused.

Love lingers on after the loved ones are buried and opens wounds over every memory of the lost seen in the present. Love creates pain and want in the absence of love's object. Love is the open doorway to despair if that love cannot or should not be returned. Love is the denial of self and the muting of personal morals & ethics for the sake of love. The rules of love are so strong they can break the bonds of loyalty, faith, and family. Love can lead one to kidnapping, murdering those that threaten, or selflessly obeying the object of love. (See Gollum in "Lord of the Rings" for his love and what it compelled him to do to keep it safe)

Sune may have a title, and both goddesses have pretensions to love but it is the Disney version of love that is being claimed and the free-wheeling passion that burns bright one moment and snuffed out the next. Love is hard and it binds tighter than any temporal chains. These flighty divinities would not truck with something so permanent and something that could be so loathsome. After all, which goddess do you think wants to see two overweight octogenarian humans using Viagra and Vagisil to overcome their impediments to the sex they are having, liver spots, sagging skin, false teeth, and all. And that's a pleasant image in comparison to what the realms has going on with its odd creatures and ugly hybrids.

By the by, with a public forum that the entire world can see, why are there so many people hung up on commenting about female homo-eroticism and voyeuristic mud wrestling? Given that D&D has a bad reputation of being a queer misogynistic diversion for virgin losers and social pariahs, why are you guys feeding into that stereotype? I know it's not all of you but the comments were across all four pages as of this posting. Talking about love being ugly and abusive, I love the FR but this is the kind of crap I gotta' put up with to research and run my games. The deity in charge of this has to be misanthropic and evil.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2015 :  05:40:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon


By the by, with a public forum that the entire world can see, why are there so many people hung up on commenting about female homo-eroticism and voyeuristic mud wrestling? Given that D&D has a bad reputation of being a queer misogynistic diversion for virgin losers and social pariahs, why are you guys feeding into that stereotype? I know it's not all of you but the comments were across all four pages as of this posting. Talking about love being ugly and abusive, I love the FR but this is the kind of crap I gotta' put up with to research and run my games. The deity in charge of this has to be misanthropic and evil.



Half a dozen posts, on two pages, from seven years ago, mentioning mud wrestling -- and I totally missed the ones on "female homo-eroticism" when I just went back looking for them. Perhaps not our finest hour, but I hardly think it worth being labeled "ugly and abusive" or "crap".

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
211 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2015 :  10:35:01  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertHalf a dozen posts, on two pages, from seven years ago, mentioning mud wrestling -- and I totally missed the ones on "female homo-eroticism" when I just went back looking for them. Perhaps not our finest hour, but I hardly think it worth being labeled "ugly and abusive" or "crap".


The sexual objectification of two fictional female deities creates a connotation for this entire thread. You are right that there were only six posts out of 83 that directly talked about mud wrestling. I let those initial responses lead me to hyperbole... except no one stepped forward to say "hey, cut it out."

For a discussion about the better "skilled" (which I took to be more qualified) of the two deities at being the goddess of love, there seems to be quite a number of posts about sex and at least a couple about orgies. Each of these things by themselves is not terribly offensive but when you add them together it casts a peurile shadow over the meaning of every ambiguous response.

That poll entry of "kissing and making up" may have been made tongue-in-cheek but now it no longer is. Do you really think all 58 of those votes are about platonic, can't-we-all-just-get-along, kumbaya opinions to say one is not better than the other? After reading this thread I can't imagine a person clicking that option without a "hur-hur-hur, girls are kissin'" coming out of his mouth. Unfair, yes, but this thread has done little to dispel the negative impression that decades worth of bad PR has made for our hobby.

And let me call you out right back. "Jumper cables" ring a bell when you opined about whether love is noble or dirty? My mind is in the gutter but perhaps you have a more innocent and less abusive explanation for what you meant. Please, elaborate.

So, yeah, there is a load of crap one has to endure to get to the good content. When people were talking about love, the nature of love, the many facets of passion, the relationships of the goddesses, and other divinities were good writings. If I were easily offended I would not have made it passed the first post to see that there was something of value here.

I don't care if this makes me the forum jerk and a pariah to be banned. Someone needed to have said something. It doesn't matter if this was from a few years ago and it popped back on the front page because of a clever bot or website promoter, someone needed to have said something then. For that matter, what does it say about this thread that it was targeted for links to adult content websites out of all the threads in this forum?

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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Misereor
Learned Scribe

159 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2015 :  11:54:54  Show Profile Send Misereor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon
Unfair, yes, but this thread has done little to dispel the negative impression that decades worth of bad PR has made for our hobby.



Yes, a few tongue in cheek remarks from your average roleplaying geeks are obviously more damaging to our hobby than the trenchcoat wearing emo guy who is seemingly quite serious when he describes love as something repulsive and evil, that can lead to kidnapping and murder. You sure nailed it, buddy.

*edit*
Actually your response was interesting, and made for an alternative angle that could be used by other faiths. Right until the point where you started jumping down people's throats.
*/edit*


What is dead may never die, but rises again, harder, stronger, in a later edition.

Edited by - Misereor on 09 Jan 2015 12:00:11
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31518 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2015 :  13:57:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertHalf a dozen posts, on two pages, from seven years ago, mentioning mud wrestling -- and I totally missed the ones on "female homo-eroticism" when I just went back looking for them. Perhaps not our finest hour, but I hardly think it worth being labeled "ugly and abusive" or "crap".


The sexual objectification of two fictional female deities creates a connotation for this entire thread. You are right that there were only six posts out of 83 that directly talked about mud wrestling. I let those initial responses lead me to hyperbole... except no one stepped forward to say "hey, cut it out."


There was no need to, because everyone else understood that it was a joke, and it was dropped.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

For a discussion about the better "skilled" (which I took to be more qualified) of the two deities at being the goddess of love, there seems to be quite a number of posts about sex and at least a couple about orgies. Each of these things by themselves is not terribly offensive but when you add them together it casts a peurile shadow over the meaning of every ambiguous response.


I don't see that. Sex is quite often related to love, and discussions of one usually involve the other.

It's like trying to discuss war without mentioning death or tactics. Some discussions can't be separated from others.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon


That poll entry of "kissing and making up" may have been made tongue-in-cheek but now it no longer is. Do you really think all 58 of those votes are about platonic, can't-we-all-just-get-along, kumbaya opinions to say one is not better than the other? After reading this thread I can't imagine a person clicking that option without a "hur-hur-hur, girls are kissin'" coming out of his mouth. Unfair, yes, but this thread has done little to dispel the negative impression that decades worth of bad PR has made for our hobby.


I know why I voted for the option I did. If others stated their reasoning for their votes, then I know their reasoning.

If someone didn't state their reasoning, then I don't assume that I know their thinking, and I especially don't filter their vote through my own perspectives.

Honestly, most of the folks here come across as mature enough not to act in the manner you describe. If that was the motivation, I'd expect to see it expressed in more than just one thread -- yet I haven't.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon


And let me call you out right back. "Jumper cables" ring a bell when you opined about whether love is noble or dirty? My mind is in the gutter but perhaps you have a more innocent and less abusive explanation for what you meant. Please, elaborate.


The jumper cables line was a joke, and it did not specify who they were going to be used on or in what way. In fact, the original joke I got it from was spoken by a male comedian, and he mentioned a woman walking in with the jumper cables (the original joke was about the sex lives of married couples, as opposed to the sex lives of single people).

I honestly did not think of how to use the jumper cables -- the point of the joke was to imply something really kinky, and the best way to do that was to reference a sexual use for something very much not sexual in nature. I could have just as readily said can opener, pineapple, or Magic 8 Ball.

Some of the best jokes are when the joke isn't actually made -- it's just set up for the audience to complete on their own. That was what I was doing.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

So, yeah, there is a load of crap one has to endure to get to the good content. When people were talking about love, the nature of love, the many facets of passion, the relationships of the goddesses, and other divinities were good writings. If I were easily offended I would not have made it passed the first post to see that there was something of value here.


A handful of posts -- less than 10% -- and your assumption of the meaning of generic poll results hardly strikes me as a load of crap.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

I don't care if this makes me the forum jerk and a pariah to be banned. Someone needed to have said something. It doesn't matter if this was from a few years ago and it popped back on the front page because of a clever bot or website promoter, someone needed to have said something then. For that matter, what does it say about this thread that it was targeted for links to adult content websites out of all the threads in this forum?



Again, nothing needed to be said because everyone else moved on.

As for what it says about this thread being targeted by spambots... The word "sex", by itself and in any context, could have been enough. But considering the spambots we've seen in the past, there may not have been any targeting at all. We've had plenty of spambots that posted links entirely unrelated to any discussions.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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xaviera
Learned Scribe

Canada
149 Posts

Posted - 09 Jan 2015 :  19:11:24  Show Profile  Visit xaviera's Homepage Send xaviera a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Given that D&D has a bad reputation of being a queer misogynistic diversion for virgin losers and social pariahs, why are you guys feeding into that stereotype? I know it's not all of you but the comments were across all four pages as of this posting.

There's certainly a lot of misogyny and objectification in gaming, as the recent GamerGate debacle brought to the fore, demonstrating that there's still some truth, I think, to the charge that (at least some) gamers are 'virgin losers and social pariahs'. There will inevitably be some 'hur-hur-hur' when talking about goddesses of love and sex, and it's right of you to call attention to juvenile misogyny. Hopefully those of us who are seriously interested in the concepts these goddesses represent will be able to overcome that sort of immature and insensitive thinking.

quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

Love is ugly when stripped of lust and neither divinity embraces the repulsive [...] Love creates bonds that wax and wane but are unbreakable even when it is painfully obvious that two who are in love are just toxic to each other. And there is little more vicious than a one way love that is abused [...] Love creates pain and want in the absence of love's object. Love is the open doorway to despair if that love cannot or should not be returned.

Sune may have a title, and both goddesses have pretensions to love but it is the Disney version of love that is being claimed and the free-wheeling passion that burns bright one moment and snuffed out the next. Love is hard and it binds tighter than any temporal chains. These flighty divinities would not truck with something so permanent and something that could be so loathsome.

At the same time, SaMoCon, I disagree with most of your thesis, which overflows with cynicism. Certainly, love can be toxic, but is it even love, then? Or is it simply obsession or fear of loss?

Love takes many forms, and I would argue that 'true love' is not the doomed co-dependency you're writing about. The 'Disney version', where one person falls swooning into the arms of their future partner at first sight or first kiss, knowing that this is their destiny, is arguably not 'true love' - but since we often don't know how those stories play out in the end, we can't really say. If they do in fact 'live happily ever after' then who's to say it isn't?

The fact that these deities (Sharess in particular) may be characterized personally as 'flighty' shouldn't prevent them, metaphysically, from giving/gaining power from any form of relationship, presumably in proportion to its intensity. In game terms, in a world where Good and Evil are realities rather than abstract concepts and where deities gain power from the instantiation of those concepts, I think we can entertain the idea of there being something in the universe that somehow assesses amount of (in this case) True Love in a relationship and apportions the number of units of divine power generated thereby appropriately.

Sune, for example, is claimed by some to be only interested in the outwardly beautiful, but if that is not the case (and I think this could be the source of a real factional split in the Sunite faith) then deep, abiding, life-long love is equally if not more worthy of her attention. Sharess (IMO) would probably say that love without sex is a waste, but at the same time even chastity is a mode of living worth exploring for a goddess of sensation, so I see no real contradiction with either deity being invoked in a sexless relationship, perhaps of the 'courtly love' variety.

I'm not saying that the sorts of relationships you describe don't exist, but I maintain that they are not what Sune and Sharess represent. The game universe has these two goddesses set up as, in effect, the 'flip sides' of Sune and Sharess - the extremes (more or less) of the dichotomies of love and sensation, respectively. To the degree that love or sex are 'tainted' by the negativities that you describe, they will fall under the purview of the darker goddesses, whereas those that are more 'pure' will be the province of the Firehair and the Lady of Lust. It's this sort of uncertainty that allows, for example, those who serve Sharess to slip under the influence of Shar. The twisted, dark parts of love and sex are where Shar and Loviatar rule.


Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess

Edited by - xaviera on 09 Jan 2015 19:21:11
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2015 :  05:07:23  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"Love is merely a conditioned response"

Or did I waste those two semesters of psych?

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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SaMoCon
Learned Scribe

USA
211 Posts

Posted - 10 Jan 2015 :  08:13:13  Show Profile Send SaMoCon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Love is not doomed so much as that doom is present in love. An analogy of my thinking is that love is like iron - it can be shaped into a sword edge and used to slay people or crafted into a plowshare to till the land and raise the food that will keep those people alive... and it can be changed from one to the other. My angle is there was plenty of discussion of the "happy, happy, joy, joy" kind of love with no mention of the other. It's not like we have a lack of popular media going into such downward spirals.

Love wants to hold on forever and ever because an absence hurts. What god is the guardian to whom the love-lost seek solace? What deity accepts the mortal pining faithfully for the dead? Its not just the graveside visits but the sense of being bereft like in Edgar Allen Poe's The Raven "Quaff, oh quaff this kind nepenthe and forget this lost Lenore! Quoth the Raven 'Nevermore,'" or William Goldman's The Princess Bride "Buttercup went into her room and shut the door. For days, she neither slept nor ate. 'I shall never love again.'" Even the eponymous characters of Romeo & Juliet followed each other into death rather than live without the other.

If love runs deep and it is all consuming then can it destroy? What if a single side decides to opt out? Car Underwater by Armor for Sleep sums it up, "I didn't care that you left and abandoned me. What hurts more, is I would still die for you." But I still prefer the Yvonne Elliman's version of If I Can't Have You swelling in Saturday Night Live's scene where Annette is spurned by Tony. What if one's lover is faithless? Does that love suddenly disappear like a shallow passion or is it the fuel for something else? In Gunslinger Girl when she fully realizes that her feelings are not and will not be returned, Elsa fatally shoots Lauro in the back and puts a bullet through her own eye. Henrietta says to Guise she would do the same thing if he stopped loving her.

Who stands as the patron of one-sided love? In Victor Hugo's the Hunchback of Notre Dame Claude, Pierre, and Quasimodo all love Esmerelda but Esmerelda only loves Phoebus who uses Esmerelda and neither loves her nor even publicly recognizes her. The Temptations' song Just My Imagination is about pining for a woman passing by the window every day, "I never met her but I can't forget her. Just my imagination running away with me." And where does unfaithful love stand in all this? Meat Loaf's Two Out of Three Ain't Bad is about a man leaving a woman "He kept on telling me I want you, I need you, But there ain't no way I'm ever gonna love you."

Isn't this also love? It is certainly not hate. That deep need which is happy if found in another that both fills and is filled mutually. There are movies, books, and songs all about love from that first euphoric feeling to the terrible ache when it is gone. It is why I think neither Sune nor Sharess are goddesses of love though Sune might be empowered by the beauty in love and the romanticizing of romance. It isn't Shar's doing either though she will feed on the broken hearts. For that matter, many deities will drink from love's cup as it runneth over with all its deeds. Maybe love doesn't have a god but it does have a pantheon for its trappings.

Make the best use of the system that's there, then modify the mechanics that don't allow you to have the fun you are looking for.
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xaviera
Learned Scribe

Canada
149 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2015 :  20:59:17  Show Profile  Visit xaviera's Homepage Send xaviera a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SaMoCon

What god is the guardian to whom the love-lost seek solace? What deity accepts the mortal pining faithfully for the dead?

If love runs deep and it is all consuming then can it destroy? What if a single side decides to opt out?

What if one's lover is faithless? Does that love suddenly disappear like a shallow passion or is it the fuel for something else?

Who stands as the patron of one-sided love?

And where does unfaithful love stand in all this?

Isn't this also love? It is certainly not hate.

To avoid creating deities ad infinitum to support all of the different human experiences, longings, desires, morals, beliefs, &c, we have to say that any divine power that results from human worship must be distributed amongst those that already exist by some unknown method (intrinsic to the universe, established by Ao, &c). It then becomes a case of where the lines between the various portfolios are drawn and which god gets what. I suggest that several deities at once might draw power from an individual experiencing certain emotions in proportion to its various components (in this case: 'pure' love, lust, joy, pleasure, anger, jealousy, despair, dedication, pain, vengeance, inspiration...), perhaps modified somewhat by who is the explicit target of the prayers or supplications. In addition to the multitudinous gods of love and pleasure (esp. Sune, Sharess & Lliira), others that come to mind as possible recipients of this energy are Kelemvor, Ilmater, Bane, Shar, and Loviatar. I could even see Cyric, Oghma, Torm or Leira drawing some power from an individual profoundly affected by an issue relating to love. In the end, though, this becomes the DM's call on the nature of divinity and exactly how worship and divine powers function in the game universe.


Writings on Sharess: Thoughts & Prayers by Xaviera ~ High Priestess of Sharess
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