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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe

Finland
143 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  17:07:22  Show Profile  Visit Talanfir Swiftfeet's Homepage Send Talanfir Swiftfeet a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I'm starting to think that there's more to Ivar than meets the eye.
He doesn't care what other people think about him, yet he seems in some almost divine way to get the right people on his side. He does not care about money or fame or respecting the authority or the completed object he has made. He cares only about making new things. And he makes them better than anyone else (he also makes them himself even if he could sit back and let his underlings do the hard work). He has made hundreds of new inventions just as tools to make bigger inventions. He also started the biggest architectural project ever in Faerun.
Phyreas ghosts seem to fear him. He is very smart, but does not care about magic. In "Lies of Light" he went to great lengths to get his hands on some smoke powder even though he could have used magic to do the job easier.
And at no point during the Watercourse Trilogy have we read any chapter from his point of view. It's always how others react to him. We don't know what goes on in his brain.

So my theory is that he is an avatar of Gond, or at least a Chosen or something. What do you think?

I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.

If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling?

Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  18:24:26  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My gut feeling is just that he's a poorly written character (in the sense that anyone who "matters" likes him), and a way for the author to be preachy about how a certain philosophy is better than most others. And that's coming from someone who likes these novels, just not their "star".

Ivar being Gond or a Chosen would be hilarious (in a bad way) since Ivar is essentially the equivalent of a real world Objectivist/Atheist who could not care less about the supernatural.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Dec 2006 18:29:23
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  18:47:33  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
In "Lies of Light" he went to great lengths to get his hands on some smoke powder even though he could have used magic to do the job easier.



I have not read the second book, but if you really mean "smoke powder" and not "black powder", know that the first one is magical (and that the second one doesn't work in the Realms).
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  20:21:08  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:


So my theory is that he is an avatar of Gond, or at least a Chosen or something. What do you think?



He is not a Chosen, but i aggre with you he is special - i think he is divine orecal of some sort.

Plz read this
http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_athansinterview2005

Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

Links related to Forgotten Realms
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=9571

Adventuring / Mercenary Companies / Orders / The chosen from official sources
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=11047


Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 13 Dec 2006 20:25:26
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  21:53:33  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

quote:


So my theory is that he is an avatar of Gond, or at least a Chosen or something. What do you think?



He is not a Chosen, but i aggre with you he is special - i think he is divine orecal of some sort.

Plz read this
http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_athansinterview2005



If Athans is trying to make a point about the Objectivist philosophy, though, making Ivar any kind of divine conduit or godly servant (or god!) would be a way of totally shooting himself in the foot. The big deal about Ivar Devorast is that he is a complete individualist who does everything for himself, and believes in using only his own creativity to achieve what he desires. He does NOT do anything on behalf of deities, nor does he credit divine inspiration for what he does. As I read the story, one of Athan's points is that Ivar is special because he isn't religious like that.

Again, I'm not saying I'm in love with the character--I'm not fond of most characters who seem like they are written in a way that manipulates the reader into thinking they are "special", or as a way to preach a certain viewpoint to the reader (ie. the only people who disagree with my viewpoint are evil/stupid/ignorant people).

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Dec 2006 21:57:59
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  22:02:41  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with RF . . . I would be surprised if Ivar ends up being any kind of divine agent, even an unlikely one. It seems like the whole "point" of his character is that he is a guy that is good at "traditional" things, things that we can relate to in the real world, like engineering, and is so good at them and so dedicated that he makes an impact on a world where there is magic and divine servants that are granted miracles, and supernatural creatures, et al.

Showing that he is "good" because he is divinely blessed, or at least specifically stating such, would really kind of undermine the character, unless of course the denumount of the whole piece is to completely destroy Ivar by letting him know that he is just a puppet on a string despite what he has beleived the whole time.

That having been said, I don't know that the third book will show him as having been successful. It may just be that he made an impact, but still failed. There are some things in the second book that I think you could argue might forshadow that, but then again, I could be completely off base.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  23:38:38  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

I agree with RF . . . I would be surprised if Ivar ends up being any kind of divine agent, even an unlikely one. It seems like the whole "point" of his character is that he is a guy that is good at "traditional" things, things that we can relate to in the real world, like engineering, and is so good at them and so dedicated that he makes an impact on a world where there is magic and divine servants that are granted miracles, and supernatural creatures, et al.





You know, that's actually something I *do* like about Ivar, and about the series in general. These books seem to be about the "regular" people in the world who do things like construction--and do it without magic. For the same reason, I really like City of Splendors: A Novel of Waterdeep.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 13 Dec 2006 :  23:54:13  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Its definately been interesting. Something about the complete "differentness" of the series is very attractive, and I applaud Athans for coming up with this experiment in the first place. I have noticed as well that often we see the fantasic elements in a different light as well. For example, a lot of "regular" people react the way they should to monsters of various types, rather than whipping out a sword or spell to attack them, or even calmly studying them . . .

Also, I thought it was interesting to see Rymut's spell selection through much of the book. Yes, he does create a demi plane in the series, but he also uses a lot of "utility" spells for eavesdropping and the like, and I find that interesting as well.

I am kind of glad that Athans didn't make Ivar more likable. There is something more substantive about him being as much of a pain as he is. I just wish he weren't the combat savant that he is in the books.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2006 :  00:00:23  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Its definately been interesting. Something about the complete "differentness" of the series is very attractive...


I totally agree.

quote:
I am kind of glad that Athans didn't make Ivar more likable. There is something more substantive about him being as much of a pain as he is. I just wish he weren't the combat savant that he is in the books.



As is usually the case, my problem with the character isn't so much that he's unlikable as that his lack of social skills don't seem to matter...as least, not to the people who "count". I am reminded of how Phyrea found him attractive in the first book...even though she was seeing him from afar, and he doesn't seem to go out of his way to look attractive or even presentable. That is ridiculous. It's also a matter of how many times that seems to happen--if one person is enchanted by such a character for no apparent reason, that's one thing, but if a bunch of other people in the book react the same way, it becomes unbelievable.

And yes--I dislike how Ivar seems to be so great in combat, even though (in the first book, anyway) there was no mention of him ever having any martial training, nor reason to believe he would have had such.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe

USA
350 Posts

Posted - 15 Dec 2006 :  01:23:30  Show Profile  Visit ShadowJack's Homepage Send ShadowJack a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A very interesting idea, Ivar being an avatar or chosen of Gond, not likely , but interesting... I too was always surprised by Ivar's combat ability, and his fearlessness in jumping into battle with creatures he has never seen before. After thinking about this for a while I decided that Ivar is a driven man. He is driven by his own need to try what others have never attempted. He will strive to fulfill his vision despite others and if someone tries to block his efforts, it is another problem to be solved... So, when a monster attempts to attack a project (the only thing he cares about) he will attack it with the same drive, energy and keen mind that he uses to solve any difficulty. In a nutshell he fights so well do to his need to see a vision fulfilled. The same reason many people "fought" againist hopeless odds throughout history... I do not care for Ivar's character either, but, I think RF and KEJr hit the nail on the head when they said the story was about "normal" people striving with mostly normal means to accomplish the impossible... Your comments about the complete "differentness" of the series was accurate. That may be the reason why I like the story so much...

ShadowJack

Edited by - ShadowJack on 15 Dec 2006 01:26:54
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youtoo
Acolyte

Ukraine
3 Posts

Posted - 15 Mar 2017 :  18:29:48  Show Profile Send youtoo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i had originally thought he was divine-touched by gond when i read the books, but the more i think about it the more the naga's words make sense: ivar is "Senthissa'ssa" - a great teacher or maker of great works - engineering, building, craft, arts, mechanics - i think the naga (and everyone else) feels the force of nature that is ivar devorast.
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