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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 27 Dec 2006 :  22:59:35  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor


Tell me, one good that were more briliant than Myrkul ?



All the ones that didn't take the Tablets of Fate.

Or that managed to successively remain "alive" after the ToT itself.

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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore

Denmark
1063 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2006 :  00:34:24  Show Profile  Visit Victor_ograygor's Homepage Send Victor_ograygor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor


Tell me, one good that were more briliant than Myrkul ?



All the ones that didn't take the Tablets of Fate.

Or that managed to successively remain "alive" after the ToT itself.




Okay i can see the funny part here , but plz anser my question?


Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master

Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.

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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2006 :  13:08:56  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just curious Victor, what is it that makes Myrkul brilliant to you? I prefer the older Gods as well, but I never thought of Myrkul as especially clever or wise.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 28 Dec 2006 :  17:41:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor

quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor


Tell me, one good that were more briliant than Myrkul ?



All the ones that didn't take the Tablets of Fate.

Or that managed to successively remain "alive" after the ToT itself.




Okay i can see the funny part here , but plz anser my question?





Seriously, I fail to see the brilliance in getting oneself destroyed in a plot that is sure to anger the one being that can totally end your existence. It would be more intelligent to assault the entire US 7th fleet with a rowboat and BB gun.

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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 05 Jan 2007 :  20:27:48  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Or, as per my new theory, it's all a con job by Xvim.



You too? I really loved the idea that despite the Banefog and every other attempt by Xvim to prove he's much more badass than Cyric or Bane ever was, that people refused to take him seriously (possibly because of his name).

So he just decided to say he's Bane.

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boddynock
Learned Scribe

Belgium
258 Posts

Posted - 12 Jan 2007 :  23:29:51  Show Profile  Visit boddynock's Homepage  Click to see boddynock's MSN Messenger address Send boddynock a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After reading the novels prince of lies and the trial of cyric the mad I began to like Cyric the mad. In my own campaign my players have ended one of Cyric's plans. So ... at this very moment they have to watch their back for the black sun's vengeance :-)
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe

341 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2007 :  03:12:53  Show Profile  Visit Mazrim_Taim's Homepage Send Mazrim_Taim a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have to agree that Xvim is so much...well cooler than Bane. If you read the 'Current Clack' in Cloak and Dagger you will know why.

And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 13 Jan 2007 :  03:23:25  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane only made a couple of novel appearances where he was decidedly less than impressive.

he became famous by his return.

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Grandmaster Kane
Seeker

64 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2007 :  12:01:29  Show Profile  Visit Grandmaster Kane's Homepage Send Grandmaster Kane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bane 4 life!!!!
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2007 :  12:25:58  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I voted for Leira. It's quite possible that Cyric is an illusion spun by her.

As regards Iyachtu Xvim, the name sounds like it was a result of a sale at Consonant U Like. Nice diety in his approach but cursed with a terrible name. Not a name that I'd cry out in the throes of passion (whether relgion inspired it or otherwise.)

With respect to Myrkul, should he now be the God of Irony since some refer to him as the slain god of death?

I've never really understood the dead gods concept. To my mind the only way to kill a god is for no-one to pray to them and no-one to hear the name and think of the deity. The power required to do that would be immense. Once a god always a god in my mind.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


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Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
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Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 22 Jan 2007 12:27:34
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2007 :  12:31:51  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
I voted for Leira. It's quite possible that Cyric is an illusion spun by her.


That idea actually sounds good to me. A being of no existence being driven mad by its own being. A sort of Moorcock meeting Poul Anderson. Welcome back by the way.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 22 Jan 2007 :  20:09:59  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Welcome back by the way.



Thank you.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
569 Posts

Posted - 11 Jun 2008 :  21:50:38  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Myrkul - Former god of corruption, the dead, death, old age. Slain by Mystra.

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2008 :  02:16:35  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bring them all back...

'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler
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Hawkins
Great Reader

USA
2130 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2008 :  16:50:44  Show Profile  Visit Hawkins's Homepage Send Hawkins a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Personally, I like Kelemvor and his different feel for a death deity, and Myrkul likes not being a deity, so I see no reason to swap this. I would not mind if Bane completely put the beat down on Cyric and stole his portfolios. Mixed feelings about the new Mystra (Midnight), not that it matters now that she is dead again. I find it sad that Leira is gone, and with such little noise as well.

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Ardashir
Senior Scribe

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 12 Jun 2008 :  23:57:30  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Cyric, to me, is an opportunistic git, and someone who perfectly fits the concept some players have that being evil means being a murderous psychopath. Since his ascension, he's been "Ooh, look at me, I'm evil!" I don't like that, so I don't like Cyric.

Bane has never appealed to me, either. Though he's not the lunatic Cyric is, to me he comes across as being much like Cyric -- evil for evil's sake. I wasn't pleased with his return.


I have to disagree, as I like them both. It somehow just amuses me to think of the Realms having two gods of tyranny. Especially since Cyric is one of those deities whose followers can prompt normally antagonistic people to join forces to deal with them. This can lead to all sorts of torture amusement.

quote:
I'm happy that Bhaal is dead. I didn't see the point to him. "Ooh, I like to kill people!"


I saw him as more of a 'Kali and the Thugs' deity. I could still get behind a God of Murder if, say, said deity was also shown as doing something like destroying demons who threatened the Realms.

quote:
I like Myrkul's current state. I didn't have many feelings towards him as a deity, either positive or negative. But a former god who's now a powerful artifact, happily popping around the Realms causing trouble? Ooh, now that is a seriously fun concept!


Fully agreed. Myrkul makes a great long-term villain to oppose PCs with.

quote:
Kelemvor I like. I much prefer his "Death is natural, deal with it." approach to Myrkul's "Ooh, death is scary!" approach.



I didn't see Myrkul as so much a "Death is scary!" as "Death will be plenty scary if you don't fork over the funeral fees!" Hmm, also, if Myrkulyte priests handled the funeral parlors of the Realms, then does that mean that even normally good cities had small temples to Myrkul operating openly? ("When it's time to send your loved ones off to the afterlife, please remember the Grey Wastes House of Eternal Peace. Or we'll reanimate your grandfather and send him over to strangle your children. And remember, friends, our special bargains for anyone willing to allow the local Brotherhood of Bhaal to inter their own, ahem, 'projects' with your deceased loved ones.")
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Venger
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 16 Jun 2008 :  05:37:17  Show Profile Send Venger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If I could, I'd vote for all of them, save for Leira and Xvim (I never, ever, liked Xvim). IMO, you can have them all coexist. About half-a-dozen of Myrkul's Portfolios, for instance, currently lie unclaimed. He can snatch them up easy without any trouble. The only ones which've been claimed have been Death and Fall. Kelemvor could keep Death while Myrkul strips Fall off of Mielikki.

As for Bhaal, he to can be a God of Death and Murder. Demigods are the exception to the rule that only one god within a pantheon can possess a single Portfolio. So as long as Bhaal remains a Demigod, he can hold the Portfolios of Death and Murder even though Kelemvor and Cyric also have them. So if I had my way, this is how things would look...

CYRIC - Murder, Strife, Lies, Intrigue, Deception, Illusion
BANE - Hatred, Tyranny, Fear
BHAAL - Assassination, Murder, Violence, Death
MYRKUL - Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Fall, Exhaustion
KELEMVOR - Death, the Dead

"Beware what you say when you speak of magic, wizard, or you shall see who has the greater power."
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Joly
Acolyte

4 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2008 :  05:07:35  Show Profile  Visit Joly's Homepage Send Joly a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I didn't see Myrkul as so much a "Death is scary!" as "Death will be plenty scary if you don't fork over the funeral fees!" Hmm, also, if Myrkulyte priests handled the funeral parlors of the Realms, then does that mean that even normally good cities had small temples to Myrkul operating openly? ("When it's time to send your loved ones off to the afterlife, please remember the Grey Wastes House of Eternal Peace. Or we'll reanimate your grandfather and send him over to strangle your children. And remember, friends, our special bargains for anyone willing to allow the local Brotherhood of Bhaal to inter their own, ahem, 'projects' with your deceased loved ones.")



I played a cleric like this once :D. 10 years after the end of the time of troubles, so Kelemvor was still new on the scene. My cleric was just a mortician who was a cleric of Myrkul, prior to his passing. He was not very happy to see his beloved boss die. They HATED Cyric and were not fond of Kelemvor either. They were activley trying to ressurect Myrkul and that of course means reforming the church. They somehow managed to tap Myrkul's power(feat) and tried to open up a new funeral parlor.

Keep in mind the FOUNDATION of Kelemvors church was made up of.... clerics of Myrkul! When Myrkul died, his clerics almost wholesale went to Cyric and then again almost wholesale, to Kelemvor.

My cleric went to Baldur's Gate and opened up a new funeral parlor simply devoted to "the god of death". The local temple of Kelemvor was discredited and the clerics of it shamed after several missions to ruin their good name.

Several of Kelemvors clerics were stolen back to our side. It turns out the rest of them were animating undead, oh no! Everyone in the city was SHOCKED when (enchanted) clerics of Kelemvor were found leading a hoard of undead out of their chappel and slaying people in the streets! Dozens of innocent people were slain!

It took our party weeks of murder people, stealing corpses and animating them in a tunnel right beneath Kelemvor's chappel to build a big enough hoard.

Not to fear noble citizens, the noble priests of the TRUE god of the dead was here to save them from the imposter! Que my cleric and the other players who were Myrkulites clerics. They showed up "just" in the nick of time to turn back the evil hoard! A search of the building found symbols of CYRIC! A few clerics of Kelemvor were still hiding inside, the players lead the mob to drag them into the street and tear them to pieces.

Que my cleric and the party standing on a street corner. "FRIENDS! COUNTRYMEN! HEAR THE SACRED WORD! The great lie of Kelemvor is but that, A LIE! There is no KELEMVOR! It is but a mask for another face, the face of CYRIC THE LIAR! CYRIC who comes for your children! CYRIC who steals from your pocket and plots to murder your familly in your bed! THE TRUE LORD OF THE DEAD still lives and all of you are decieved! Our lord will ALWAYS PROTECT YOU from CYRIC THE LIAR! Our 4 clerics then raised dead 4 dead children to shock the crowd.

Our little funeral home became a large temple to Myrkul, operating in the open and drawing the faithful to the city :). We never returned Myrkul to godhood, the group had to disband but that was a GOOD campaign :).

Campaigns focused around raising dead gods are fun IMO.


Can you guess who I voted for?

Actually I voted for Bhaal, but I want Myrkul back too!

Unlike most here, I *LIKE* Cyric. He is a fantastic scape goat for evil characters. Everyone hates and fears Cyric, so a smart evil character will claim that their god will protect them from Cyric.
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1229 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  11:46:55  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aye, I ken, 'tis an old scroll indeed. Boo-hoo, 'tis a scroll about bringing back dead GODS and ye're quibbling about a scribbling or two being brought back?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

[quote]I don't think a true tyrant would flaunt his victory by leaving visible reminders of someone he had taken out. A true tyrant would, IMO, remove all visible signs of those who had gone before.

That's why I favor either the "Oops, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm Xvim Bane!" theory.


I don't know, I can't quite agree with that.

A Lord of Murder, Destruction or Oblivion might well do that that; but Tyranny implies control over someone, no?

One can't be a tyrant over empty thrones and wastelands, can one? As important as the awesome power one wields is someone to wield it over, someone to bully, frighten and control.

Flaunting his domination over Xvim would seem very in line for Bane's portfolio, at least. Tyranny over the bonds of family, tyranny over death itself and tyranny over the natural order where son is borne of father and not vice versa. In so many words, an ultimate act of tyranny.

With that being said, though, I can't imagine Xvim being destroyed. His essence resides in Bane, subdued by his power but subtly trying to influence his decisions. Just as the cowed populations of the Heartlands will one day (at least in Bane's dreams) scheme for position under his undying Black Throne.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1229 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  11:56:18  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Cyric, to me, is an opportunistic git, and someone who perfectly fits the concept some players have that being evil means being a murderous psychopath. Since his ascension, he's been "Ooh, look at me, I'm evil!" I don't like that, so I don't like Cyric.


Well, opportunistic lust for power at any cost is a valid model of 'evil'. And when there actually exist forces of Evil in the world that reward such behaviour, it's not at all unlikely that at least one God would be a person who got where he is by seizing his chances and lying, cheating and backstabbing more than the rest.

That being said, I liked Cyric's portrayal in James Lowder's 'Laughter in the Flames' Realms of Infamy (1994), page 293.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  15:21:33  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

Aye, I ken, 'tis an old scroll indeed. Boo-hoo, 'tis a scroll about bringing back dead GODS and ye're quibbling about a scribbling or two being brought back?

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

[quote]I don't think a true tyrant would flaunt his victory by leaving visible reminders of someone he had taken out. A true tyrant would, IMO, remove all visible signs of those who had gone before.

That's why I favor either the "Oops, I'm back!" theory, or the "Hey, look at me, I'm Xvim Bane!" theory.


I don't know, I can't quite agree with that.

A Lord of Murder, Destruction or Oblivion might well do that that; but Tyranny implies control over someone, no?

One can't be a tyrant over empty thrones and wastelands, can one? As important as the awesome power one wields is someone to wield it over, someone to bully, frighten and control.

Flaunting his domination over Xvim would seem very in line for Bane's portfolio, at least. Tyranny over the bonds of family, tyranny over death itself and tyranny over the natural order where son is borne of father and not vice versa. In so many words, an ultimate act of tyranny.

With that being said, though, I can't imagine Xvim being destroyed. His essence resides in Bane, subdued by his power but subtly trying to influence his decisions. Just as the cowed populations of the Heartlands will one day (at least in Bane's dreams) scheme for position under his undying Black Throne.



I don't think flaunting his domination over Xvim would be out of character... But some details about Bane have changed, making him more like Xvim. Particularly the color change of his holy symbols... Making your own symbol a blend of yours and your vanquished foe's isn't flaunting domination, in my mind -- it's showing integration, and that's not tyrannical. Now if Bane's new symbol actually showed subjugation or defeat by consuming or crushing Xvim's symbol, then that would have been tyrannical.

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Icelander
Master of Realmslore

1229 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  17:14:44  Show Profile  Visit Icelander's Homepage Send Icelander a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't think flaunting his domination over Xvim would be out of character... But some details about Bane have changed, making him more like Xvim. Particularly the color change of his holy symbols... Making your own symbol a blend of yours and your vanquished foe's isn't flaunting domination, in my mind -- it's showing integration, and that's not tyrannical. Now if Bane's new symbol actually showed subjugation or defeat by consuming or crushing Xvim's symbol, then that would have been tyrannical.


Well, he is squeezing the green rays in his Black Fist. That, to me at least, is pretty evocative of domination over Xvim, over death and the natural order.

And it recalls the event when Bane burst out of Xvim in green flames. Which was the God Bane's finest hour and greatest victory.

But for all that, I still agree that the reborn Bane is in many ways influenced by the subsumed essence of his son, perhaps much more than he realises. Perhaps, if the Sellplague hadn't happened, there would be scope for Bane to defeat Cyric and steal his porfolio of intrigue, only to find out that the porfolio did not go do him, but to Xvim as his servitor God.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  19:22:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't think flaunting his domination over Xvim would be out of character... But some details about Bane have changed, making him more like Xvim. Particularly the color change of his holy symbols... Making your own symbol a blend of yours and your vanquished foe's isn't flaunting domination, in my mind -- it's showing integration, and that's not tyrannical. Now if Bane's new symbol actually showed subjugation or defeat by consuming or crushing Xvim's symbol, then that would have been tyrannical.


Well, he is squeezing the green rays in his Black Fist. That, to me at least, is pretty evocative of domination over Xvim, over death and the natural order.

And it recalls the event when Bane burst out of Xvim in green flames. Which was the God Bane's finest hour and greatest victory.

But for all that, I still agree that the reborn Bane is in many ways influenced by the subsumed essence of his son, perhaps much more than he realises. Perhaps, if the Sellplague hadn't happened, there would be scope for Bane to defeat Cyric and steal his porfolio of intrigue, only to find out that the porfolio did not go do him, but to Xvim as his servitor God.



But Bane's colors were red and black, Xvim's were green and black. If Bane is dominating Xvim, why does his symbol have Xvim's color's, not his own? And why would he burst out in flames that are Xvim's colors, instead of his own? He's also been shown to now be favoring critters that Xvim liked... Put all that together with the fact that it's not unheard of for one deity to impersonate another that has fallen, and it presents an interesting picture.

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Finder
Acolyte

Canada
9 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  20:04:52  Show Profile  Visit Finder's Homepage Send Finder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always felt that Xvim would have made a good focus on (lawful) evil raising again once more in the realms after the death of Bane and the overpowered Cyric (chaotic evil) dominating realms events for a time.

Xvim to me had possibilities for story telling in both the games and the novels as he was fighting to regain what his father had lost and was doing an ok job at it.

But the realms and authors I guess chose not to go down that root and took the easy way out in realms 3.0 as Banes return was sudden and surprising.

With Bane back I see no need for Xvim..... Perhaps his return asa demi-power could happen. If his father willed it I guess. Though I'm sure Fzoul needs no help.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 20 Aug 2008 :  00:58:06  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
During some of the earlier discussions between myself and Wooly about Bane's return, we speculated that Bane may have been experiencing some difficulties in completely subsuming the remnants of Xvim's essense. This was reflecting one of the theories about Xvim having more of a place in Bane 2.0's essence, and the fact that Bane 2.0 is essentially using Xvim's colours.

Bane's hand is squeezing the green rays [of Xvim] -- and if we look at that from the "Bane-eventually-subsumes-Xvim" stand point, that image itself could suggest Bane is perhaps closing in around Xvim's remnants, or rather, slowly squeezing it out of existence (or rather again, completely consuming it). Or, alternatively, looking at it from another perspective, with Xvim maintaining some place in Bane 2.0, maybe Xvim is fighting to maintain himself in spite of Bane's apparent [and overriding] presence.

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