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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 09:50:35
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Dear fellow scribes!
Beforehand I want to point out that this thread shall ONLY answer my question. It is NOT my intention to discuss the novel itself in length. Please keep that in mind. Thanks.
So now to my question:
As it was stated on page 1 of the book by the author himself, the novel takes place in the Year of Wild Magic 1372 DR. However, I wonder how many hours, days, weeks or month Elminster has to endure the torments of his capturer?
Any ideas?
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Talanfir Swiftfeet
Learned Scribe
Finland
143 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 11:22:04
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You got to remember that time may not flow at the same speed in hells as it does in the Prime. So what in the Prime may be only few day can be tendays in hell (or the other way around).
Someone who has the Return of the Archwizards trilogy and/or Elminster in Hell could answer your question. |
I am Talanfir Swiftfeet. (In)famous across the Swoardcoast as "Tal the Swift", Brandobaris´ seraph of mischief. If ye find yer shoelaces tied together while trying to catch a thief or meet a king who is angry because somebody switched the places of his chamberpot and his crown, ye can usually (try to) find me near.
If I had a halfling mother and a human father, would I be a half-halfling or a threequarterling? |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11699 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2006 : 21:15:56
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>>You got to remember that time may not flow at the same speed in hells as it does in the >>Prime. So what in the Prime may be only few day can be tendays in hell (or the other way >>around).
No, there is no difference in time flow between the FR nine hells and the prime material. That would be listed as a planar trait in the Player's Guide to Faerun.
As to how long Elminster was there, dunno, but if you put in the research I'd love to know.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2006 : 11:58:50
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| If i recall correctly, Elminster was not back till the end of the archwizards trilogy so it may have been quite a few months. My memory may be quite rusty, can someone refresh it for me? |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 01:14:09
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| I always thought he was in Nergal's clutches for a week or so at the most... maybe a month. The majority of his disappearance was due to his recovery, both physically and mentally, which I believe took several months. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 19 Nov 2006 01:15:05 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2006 : 04:14:59
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| Agreed--after what El went through, it only makes sense that he'd need monthes to recover. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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sparhawk42
Learned Scribe
104 Posts |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2006 : 21:59:14
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He was in Hell just long enough for the Shades to be brought back to Faerun without him having anything to say about it...and not a moment longer. Apart from that the dates are pretty insignificant, since it was just a contrived way to explain him out of the story.
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 11:12:01
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quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
This link has some information about when the events in Elminster in Hell end, how long it took him to recover and such. Hope it helps out.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-elwhere.htm
The article/text linked here is signed by 'Ed'.
Now, I wonder if this is an authentic text by the one and only, the true 'Ed', the one that also adds tidbits of lore via THO at these very boards, Mr. Ed Greenwood?
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 11:15:36
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I answered the question myself by following the only link provided on that page to the main pages from the sages where it reads:
'From time to time, Ed Greenwood and others weigh in on various discussions on the Forgotten Realms Mailing List, clarifying points of Realmslore and other errata. Gathered below are some of their answers and speculations. Minor changes have been made to correct spelling and protect the identities of the innocent :-).'
All said.  |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 11:20:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sparhawk42
This link has some information about when the events in Elminster in Hell end, how long it took him to recover and such. Hope it helps out.
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-elwhere.htm
Thanks for the link. It does provide the answer it seems, to how long Elminster is not actively involved in the ongoing dealings and political affairs on Fearun, as in Ed's article is stated:
'So regarding Elminster's whereabouts, we're left with almost all of 1372 and the first few months of 1373 to account for, and for almost all of that time he would indeed be absent from Shadowdale.'
However, it still leaves the question open, as to how long he actually remained in hell!
*continuing the research* Ergdusch
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 15:51:04
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| I thought mystra healed elminster back to almost full strength immediately? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 17:53:18
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| All the physical healing in the world won't affect what's been done to a person psychologically. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2006 : 18:31:59
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And the loss of memories that make you what you are may be worse than the mind-rape.
The link is from a reply Ed made to a question from Crust on the rasalvatore.com boards (which I recommend you avoid unless you think moderators should reply to helpful, informed posts with ad hominem insults). |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Nov 2006 20:16:26 |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2006 : 22:54:16
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Good memory, Faraer! I do remember that response, but I was under the impression that he might have cut/pasted that from some other existing text, rather than get all into that as a casual response to my question.
I also remember feeling very privileged to get a response from him (if it actually was him). I was somewhat star-struck. 
Anyway, Ergdusch, judging from the novel, I would guess that El was trapped in Avernus for about one week, perhaps less (contradicting my previous post, but I stand by this). I didn't notice any hints at long periods of time elapsing during El's encounter with Nergal. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 24 Nov 2006 22:55:41 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2006 : 16:19:58
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Yes, it was Ed, Crust. Trust me. 
And yes, you're right: about a week. Eight or nine days (I think Ed once said "bits of nine days, if you include all the scenes").
Ergdusch, does that cover it?
love,
THO |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2006 : 22:44:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
All the physical healing in the world won't affect what's been done to a person psychologically.
Well..except that a simple heal spell removes all physical and mental (psychological) harm. If heal can undo feeblemind, insanity, or a dozen other magical ailments, then I am sure things like like miracle or Alter Reality or any of the other powers Mystra can call upon at will would trump whatever spellcraft was worked upon Elminster by an exiledArchdevil who was slain (twice) by the Simbul.
The reasons for why Elminster was gone and subsequently out of commission for much of the opening DR years of 3E wasnt intended to make sense...it was intended to explain Elminster out of the story so the Netherese Shadow Weave bad guys could be inserted into the campaign setting and safely rooted there without impediment. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 00:41:25
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| Remember though that emotional pain can promote personal growth and learning. Not saying I disagree with anyone here, just saying that I like the idea of Elminster coming away from the experience having...learned something, perhaps? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Dec 2006 00:43:04 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2006 : 01:01:34
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| Magic routinely (for the rich and high-level) curing mental harm is far too easy for drama, interesting characters, and the Realms as I know it. Either the spell as written doesn't exactly apply in the Realms, or there are major undisclosed reasons why it often isn't used (I favour the former). |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2006 : 12:20:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Yes, it was Ed, Crust. Trust me.
And yes, you're right: about a week. Eight or nine days (I think Ed once said "bits of nine days, if you include all the scenes").
Ergdusch, does that cover it?
love,
THO
It does indeed. Thanks for chimming in on this THO.
Ergdusch
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"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2006 : 16:01:16
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A pleasure.
As for why a heal spell couldn't restore Elminster's sanity enough for him to "go on functioning normally," the reasons are these, according to Ed:
With the death of Mystra, much of her root memories survive in two entities: Elminster and Azuth (and some are held only by Azuth, whereas others are held only by Elminster). The dynamic nature of the Weave means its "anchors" are ever-changing, but must be numerous, and scores of Elminster's memories were among them.
So a heal spell couldn't fix him. It would be like trying to pull a screwdriver out of a lug nut on a fast-spinning car wheel, whilst racing the car at high speeds, to try to tighten ANOTHER lug nut on the same wheel. Bootstrapping, in other words.
What was needed instead was loving fellow Chosen "walking the pathways of El's mind" with him, stitching here and refocussing there, knitting it all back together.
So saith Ed. Make sense, fellow scribes?
love,
THO |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2006 : 16:47:19
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| I loved this book. I just finished it and it was a great read! |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2006 : 23:01:08
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A pleasure.
As for why a heal spell couldn't restore Elminster's sanity enough for him to "go on functioning normally," the reasons are these, according to Ed:
With the death of Mystra, much of her root memories survive in two entities: Elminster and Azuth (and some are held only by Azuth, whereas others are held only by Elminster). The dynamic nature of the Weave means its "anchors" are ever-changing, but must be numerous, and scores of Elminster's memories were among them.
So a heal spell couldn't fix him. It would be like trying to pull a screwdriver out of a lug nut on a fast-spinning car wheel, whilst racing the car at high speeds, to try to tighten ANOTHER lug nut on the same wheel. Bootstrapping, in other words.
What was needed instead was loving fellow Chosen "walking the pathways of El's mind" with him, stitching here and refocussing there, knitting it all back together.
So saith Ed. Make sense, fellow scribes?
love,
THO
Yes...and it definitely makes for a more interesting story. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 06:45:34
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I was about to say that yes, Mystra can no doubt stitch someone back up instantly after such a devil-induced ordeal, and that Elminster's memory loss is perhaps due to a greater problem here, such as him becoming too old to 'hold it together.' Perhaps the devil's actions, and the very difficult healing afterwards, just gave us a glimpse as to what a senile Elminster could become. Perhaps this is a wake-up call to some of the Chosen, who must perhaps start to formulate a plan for El's retirement, a contingency/emergency preparedness of sorts. I dread to see how dark the Realms could become with an instable Elminster on the loose...  My guess is that El is way too honorable to succumb to the temptations of 'carrying on no matter what' or to a 'fear of dying.' If given the choice, he would probably choose 'planned death' to 'pain and death to his friends.'
I love THO's explanation much better though! |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 07:26:46
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
A pleasure.
As for why a heal spell couldn't restore Elminster's sanity enough for him to "go on functioning normally," the reasons are these, according to Ed:
With the death of Mystra, much of her root memories survive in two entities: Elminster and Azuth (and some are held only by Azuth, whereas others are held only by Elminster). The dynamic nature of the Weave means its "anchors" are ever-changing, but must be numerous, and scores of Elminster's memories were among them.
So a heal spell couldn't fix him. It would be like trying to pull a screwdriver out of a lug nut on a fast-spinning car wheel, whilst racing the car at high speeds, to try to tighten ANOTHER lug nut on the same wheel. Bootstrapping, in other words.
What was needed instead was loving fellow Chosen "walking the pathways of El's mind" with him, stitching here and refocussing there, knitting it all back together.
So saith Ed. Make sense, fellow scribes?
love,
THO
It does make sense, and of course adds to the drama as well. However, I wonder: Why did not all this information about Elminsters recovery and all appear in the book, like an 'Epilogue' sort of thing?
Ergdusch *musing* |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2006 : 20:35:10
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Probably, knowing Ed, because his original draft was long by five or six chapters and it had to get trimmed back just to what was published.
What... you didn't actually think all those memory fragments started as fragments, did you? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2006 : 11:48:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
What... you didn't actually think all those memory fragments started as fragments, did you?
Well... |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 13:20:05
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I was just wondering, now that elminster lost some of his memories. Was it more likely that he is now more energetic?
he used to complain about retiring because of having too many bad memories. Now since many of them are gone, any chance of him being more active? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 15:22:29
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| No, other direction. (He is retired.) |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2006 : 11:30:39
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| Whats his excuse this time? He is feeling vulnerable? |
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Shandar The Ashen
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2007 : 02:49:46
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This is less a question about how long El was in Hell, and more about when he was in Hell. I know he was there in 1372 DR, but can anyone tell me if the Hell he was in was Pre Reckoning or Post Reckoning?
I'm trying to nail down when in Dale Reckoning the Reckoning of Hell occured (as per {Paladin in Hell module and the Guide to Hell 2E sourcebook)
Can anyone help with a date for when Mammon became a Geryon wannabe and Baazebul turned into a slime spitting slug?
Thanks in advance
Shandar |
"What doesn't kill you only adds to your experience points."
http://adndholdout.blogspot.com |
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How long was Elminster in Hell?
