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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 02:33:07
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I have been thinking about instituting a new rule for low level characters in the campaign. While I'll likely write up the rules for it, its not something that I'm likely to actually clue players into right off the bat. My idea goes something like this. When you are first level, you haven't seen a lot of the rest of the world. A lot of creature types are new to you, and only exist as legends and stories.
My idea is for a new character to have to make a will save when he first encounters a new character type, with the save DC being 10 ± the difference between the CR of the creature and the level and of the character. If the character misses their save, they are shaken for the encounter.
I wouldn't make a character make a save for encountering something that is the same "type" as they are . . . for example, most PCs wouldn't have to make a save versus a humanoid creature, and I would also exclude anything that they are likely to have seen on a fairly regular basis, for example, a monstrous humanoid or an animal or vermin.
Once the character had made three consecutive saves against that type, they aren't shaken by them anymore, unless the particular type of creature has a separate effect that causes this to happen, and on top of that, the creature, if it does have a fear effect, may cause a worse fear effect than shaken if the character is already in that state.
Planetouched would be immune to this effect versus most outsiders, since its kind of intrinsic in them that such beings interact with the world from time to time. It would almost be subconcious for them to be able to deal with them, esepcially if such creatures are of the same "type" as they are.
Elves would be imune to this effect versus fey creatures, as they are likely to have been at least somewhat used to them, and I might even consider making dwarves imune to giants and elementals. Anything that wasn't a standard race would be determined on a case by case basis.
Also, in some cases, I might rule that the creature causes another effect until the character is used to its type. For example, a fey might cause a character to be dazed instead of shaken, given the fey a chance to do something without the PC actively opposing it. A creature that is an outsider, but of the good subtype might count as well, and even if the characters don't fight it, if they make three saves to get used to good outsiders, just knowing that such creatures have interacted with them and what they are like might embolden them for encounters with nastier creatures like demons or devils.
The fun of this, I think, could be in that the PCs wouldn't know what they are running into. Since zombies don't normally cause a will save or cause you to be shaken, their minds might wander all over the place. On top of that, I just like the logic of this. Even if you know what a zombie is, it has to be somewhat staggering to see the body of a dead creature get up and start walking, let alone if it shambles toward you and attacks.
What do you think? Like, dislike, or any refinements you would add to the system?
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
575 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 04:05:59
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| love it |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 04:45:50
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Refinements, regional and cultural should come into effect. Legends are one thing but if beholders raid a community once every ten years they will be more then legends. Also culture level of education can provide good guide lines to low level monsters. A Fighter is taught by a retired fighter (sometimes an adventurer as well) that could very well describe perhaps CR4 or less. I would not apply shaken to such low level foes.
I also am concerned about the case by case aspect of your formular.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 04:55:48
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Part of why I mentioned "case by case" is that there are always some creatures that just don't fit in with the standard logic. Any creature that doesn't appear to be "different" in its natural form, such as a Jann, for example, wouldn't provoke the usual issue with Outsiders. Just seeing a vampire, and not knowing what it is obviously wouldn't provoke a check, and of course neither would seeing a doppleganer or malaugrym in another form that isn't its own.
Part of why I wanted to try this is also kind of as a means of disregarding CR. A walking corpse should be scarry, even if its a CR 2 Zombie. Most aberrations are pretty freaky looking creatures, no matter how powerful they are. I want to kind of capture the feel of new adventurers seeing really nasty things for the first time.
I probably didn't explain it as well as I could have by describing the PCs knowing legends or folktales. Some of them may know for an absolute fact that a given creature exists, and may even have seen one from a distance, but the first time they have to face one, up close, and its all about THEM being the only one to either stop the creature or get the hell away from it, this should feel a little different.
Thanks for the input, and keep the brainstorms coming . . . |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 05:14:20
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Hello-
I like the idea, and I think it could add a really good element of realism.
Along the same lines, Ive never really liked how Every PC seems to know to burn a troll, etc when they encounter certain creatures. I thought of a similar system for knowing things about a creature. WOTC is covering this some in their 'Know Your Enemy' series of web-articles.
The only drawback is the bookkeeping involved... I thought about this Once in a 2.0 game - and keeping lists of creatures encountered seemed more of a pain than a beneifit.
One other question - would there be a level where, being superlative hero-types - they could avoid the saves altogether? Or would a 10th level character who is first encountering something big (say some ugly Daemon or some such) at a CR of 15 - would they need to make the save?
You mention needing 3 consecutive saves to basically be 'immune' to further encounters with the same creature. How about 2 or more saves at level 3+ and 1 save at level 5+, and no save needed at level 7+. Or, you could base it on the difference between the 10 DC and the CR: So - Any difference at 1st level needs 3 saves, then if the difference is say 5+ at 3rd - they would need 3 saves, but if it was 3+, only 2 saves, and 1 save if the difference was 1+. Of course - this adds some complexity.
Not bad though. :)
Dhomal
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 05:22:37
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I know what you are saying, but part of me likes the idea that that a Purple Dragon Knight that is 8th level, that has been a soldier for 20 years, but has never run into an aberration, would still be taken aback when he first ran into a beholder or phearimm. I know this doesn't really apply to an adventurer in the same way, since by 8th level they are more likely to have run into a few nastier things, but it could still come into play.
However, I get what you are saying as well . . . what if just three total saves would do the trick? And perhaps a +2 circumstance bonus for each previous save made? So by the time you are ready to rack up your third encounter with something, you are at +4 on the save to start?
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 27 Oct 2006 05:24:43 |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 06:11:51
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I think that it is a great idea, but one that could quickly become tedious if not properly managed.
The example you make of the 8th level Purple Dragon Knight who has been a fighting man for 20years, well, he might be the kind of guy who isn't fazed easily because he's already "seen it all". The rookie beside him would look over at him during a battle and would just "soldier on", following his example. He'd be like a cop, who altough he hasn't seen everything, has seen enough that nothing really surprises him anymore.
Without rambling on too much more, I think that at lower levels, this is a great idea, and then after that, as a DM, you could arbitrarily make the players roll a save against any ridiculously nasty creature that they may face. This would mean that only occasionally would a 8th-or-so+ level character be forced to make this save. And also that you wouldn't have to record every single monster you ever fought.
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My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 21:06:40
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| Can't the players play that without the rule? |
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 00:34:31
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| Exactly my thoughts Faraer. IŽll admit that the rule might work well at lower levels and with certain types of nasties later, like Conlon suggested. But generally IŽd rather trust my players to know how to role-play their chars. And if they go KodT- or metagamehell-style on me...well IŽll surely have something in the back of my hand to...ahem...convince them of their errors. |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 03:14:42
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I wouldn't do it at lower levels because being shaken or dazed can get lower level characters killed.
Consider also that it takes the fun out of play if -every time you encounter something new- it automatically has an advantage over you.
The (3E) game introduces a level of the unknown already since DMs can add class levels and Hit Dice to creatures. If a DM goes a long ways towards detailed descriptions of encounters, he can achieve something of a level of fear in his players.
I think these sorts of rules work best if and only if the players are:
1) Clued in to them beforehand
2) They know the theme of the adventure is one of horror/terror
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldnt believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 28 Oct 2006 18:57:30 |
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Conlon
Learned Scribe
Canada
132 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 15:35:49
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Sanshiver makes some good points. I agree about the danger of being shaken at lower levels, but perhaps the characters would only be shaken for the initial round after seeing what they are up against? And I think that being shaken/dazed should only occur when encountering something that is either very intimidating/horrifying/gross. The first time you meet a goblin/kobold etc shouldn't probably shake you to your core, but maybe the first time you see an undead, large scorpion, giant? Anyways, I think this could be applied abitrarily by the DM, using common sense and this way long records wouldn't be required.
And Sanshiver, glad to see you enjoyed DMB. They were ridiculously good at the Molson Amphitheatre in Toronto this summer! Finally got to see them play Tripping Billies live! (if that seemed off-topic, Mods, these bards also stole the show at the last Shieldmeet!) |
My hopes are ashes, my dreams are dust. All my intentions mean nothing unless they are followed by action. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 06:04:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Part of why I wanted to try this is also kind of as a means of disregarding CR. A walking corpse should be scarry, even if its a CR 2 Zombie. Most aberrations are pretty freaky looking creatures, no matter how powerful they are. I want to kind of capture the feel of new adventurers seeing really nasty things for the first time.
What you might also consider is adjusting the check relative to the number of times the character has experienced the creature. While no characters should ever end up feeling casual or blase' about a walking corpse, for higher level characters it would eventually become an easier thing to stomach when they encounter one.
Your idea is a good one. I think I'm going to have to write up a NWP for 2nd edition for my game to cover this now.  |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 06:16:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Hello-
The only drawback is the bookkeeping involved... I thought about this Once in a 2.0 game - and keeping lists of creatures encountered seemed more of a pain than a beneifit.
True, it is. One way to get around this is to have photocopied images of creatures that you anticipate them encountering as they adventure, and hand them out to the players, sort of as a collage of creatures they've encountered. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 15:42:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Varl
True, it is. One way to get around this is to have photocopied images of creatures that you anticipate them encountering as they adventure, and hand them out to the players, sort of as a collage of creatures they've encountered.
Hello-
Wow - I'm imagining a player needing a 1" ring binder just to keep the creatures he has met handy! LOL When I had considered this - I was leaning towards a simple physical list, but could not decide if I wanted to try and make the 'complete' list to act like a checklist - or keep writing down entries on sheets for each PC, having to re-alphabetize as I go....
It did not matter in the end - I scrapped the idea as too heavy in bookkeeping.
Another side question - if we use this sort of an idea for PC's - what do we do with commonors and other non-adventuring types? Is it more difficult for the farmer or blacksmith to keep their pants dry than an adventurer? Or - are they automatically 'freaked out'?
Dhomal
(*Who was watching SNL last night - when the skit showed an angry mob running up to kill Frankenstein (the monster) and Frankenstein countered with - what if You were the monster (referring to one of the front peasants) Look - balding head, and a scraggly, patchy beard. What if You were the monster, Weirdbeard? LOL - I laughed at the use of Ed's nickname I've seen mentioned here. :) *) |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 16:58:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dhomal
Wow - I'm imagining a player needing a 1" ring binder just to keep the creatures he has met handy! LOL When I had considered this - I was leaning towards a simple physical list, but could not decide if I wanted to try and make the 'complete' list to act like a checklist - or keep writing down entries on sheets for each PC, having to re-alphabetize as I go....
I don't think it'd be cumbersome to have a group set of pics for the creatures the group has encountered. I don't know of any other way to insert "neophyte-ism" into each character a player plays without using some kind of props to show what the character knows about and has encountered. It also would help the player roleplay it out too.
quote:
Another side question - if we use this sort of an idea for PC's - what do we do with commonors and other non-adventuring types?
I don't know. I don't have too many farmers or blacksmiths traveling with adventurers in the wild, in fact, I've never had one.
quote:
Is it more difficult for the farmer or blacksmith to keep their pants dry than an adventurer? Or - are they automatically 'freaked out'?
Unless they were an adventurer before retiring and becoming a smith or farmer, then probably yes.
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I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Starting adventurers (monsters and familiarity)
