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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  02:11:07  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It is VERY interesting to note, that the Vikings who worshiped Tyr, saw him as the god of warriors, and also as a judge of sorts. I LOVE how Ed Greenwood included the Viking god Tyr into the pantheon. He is the Viking god Tyr in all respects. He is blind like the Viking God (Notice even the Vikings thought justice should be blind), and he has only one hand like Tyr of the Vikings...
Norse Tyr lost his hand to Hel's hound Garm. Faerun Tyr lost his hand to Kezef the Chaos hound.

I have extended this a bit further. Since Deities and Demigods (3e) was published, I am now allowing Valkyrie as servants of Tyr. He is the Only god of the Forgotten realms that has Valkyrie as servants. Why? He is the only god with any connection to Asgard. My view of the planes is really that of a multiverse. The planes are infinite, and that Cosmology in FR Campaign setting, I still follow, but each of the deities domains is part of one of the classic planes. For example Bane's realm is located on Acheron. You can travel to the god's realms through the realms cosmology or through the classic planar pathways set up in the 1st edition.

How did I get on this subject?


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 17 Apr 2003 :  04:25:47  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's pretty good, Mournblade. I like that. Any other such tidbits that you added?

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe

USA
428 Posts

Posted - 29 Apr 2003 :  00:53:05  Show Profile  Visit branmakmuffin's Homepage Send branmakmuffin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Faiths & Pantheons web enhancement has a lits of all the paladin (and monk) orders in the Realms. Presumably, the deities listed are the only deities who officially have paladins.
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 06 May 2003 :  10:00:11  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself. Since u are close to the mind of the one u judge u must feel the same... And don't tell me that there is no judge in elf kingdoms. Elf don't judge by an other way and are defenitivly chaotic by nature. And so?
Its u who make the laws, so a judge god don't follow any other laws than its, or maybe those of Ao? But i don't think so, only Helm may know what Ao want exactly, and Ao doesn't care about mortels.
Chaotic judgment is not always how u feel, but i could be how people feel at this time, which is quite different.
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  02:37:44  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel

Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself. Since u are close to the mind of the one u judge u must feel the same... And don't tell me that there is no judge in elf kingdoms. Elf don't judge by an other way and are defenitivly chaotic by nature. And so?
Its u who make the laws, so a judge god don't follow any other laws than its, or maybe those of Ao? But i don't think so, only Helm may know what Ao want exactly, and Ao doesn't care about mortels.
Chaotic judgment is not always how u feel, but i could be how people feel at this time, which is quite different.
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?




Eilinel!!! STOP! Your trying to cast that CONFUSION spell with the STILL SPELL feat again aren't you?????


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2003 :  16:11:36  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have got that feat and the silent spell feat too... i don't try, if u want my advice, i do.
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zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2003 :  12:56:27  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel

I have got that feat and the silent spell feat too... i don't try, if u want my advice, i do.




As you may have notice she doesn't use her silent spell feat often...
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Aeriden Raven
Acolyte

11 Posts

Posted - 25 Jun 2003 :  10:49:37  Show Profile  Visit Aeriden Raven's Homepage Send Aeriden Raven a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel

Ok, all of that is true... but a lawful judge will favore a lawful guy against a chaotic one, anyway, just because they can understand themself.


No, that's what a chaotic judge might do A lawful judge will uphold the law and judge everyone in the same way. Naturally judges are no robots, so there will always be individual differences, but I think a lawful judge is the best you can do.
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Besides, the lawful people use to care only about men or humanoids, so to speak. At least in DnD. Chaotics tend to care also about nature, animals, and the relationship with them. Is it really strange?


I was wondering where you got that information. In my opinion this has nothing to do with alignment, only with classes and specific characters. I can think of plenty chaotic characters who do not care a lot for nature and animals (I don't mean evil characters) and of lawful characters who might.

I think the paladin discussion is an interesting one. I think they should be lawful, but everything about his alignment has already been said by people who have a lot more background knowledge than I do

Edited by - Aeriden Raven on 25 Jun 2003 10:50:59
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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 02 Feb 2004 :  23:41:25  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
mmh
i don't see any main difference between the way dwarves and elves judge. and i don't think one is better than the other.
and, however dwarves are mostly loyal when elves are chaotic.
has alignment any relation with judgment?

i personaly don't think so.
that's why i think Tyr shouldn't be lawful good.
or, he should be the god of one type of judgment...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2004 :  06:03:46  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
::coughs at the dust from the old scroll::

Dwarven society is clan-based. The clan comes first, then the family, then the individual. With elves, things are less ritualized, and more inclined to spirit than form.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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eilinel
Learned Scribe

France
296 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2004 :  20:53:37  Show Profile  Visit eilinel's Homepage Send eilinel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
and... then?
is one of those ways better than the other?
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2004 :  21:23:18  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
No, I was just explaining the alignment for you.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe

USA
172 Posts

Posted - 19 Feb 2004 :  04:54:42  Show Profile  Visit Darth KTrava's Homepage  Send Darth KTrava an AOL message Send Darth KTrava a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'd say this has been a very intense, and informative discussion that I've just finished reading. ::whew!::

I think that I can agree with whichever poster who said that Tyr was basically a "stick in the mud" kinda guy(god).... And that's basically how I play a paladin to him that I'm playing... I wonder how many people play the kind of paladin that basically shouts "I'M A PALADIN!!" no matter where he goes. I don't. Mine that I play was the kind that "hinted" at her abilities like an off-hand comment about the detection of evil over there or such as that.

I'd say that the poster, Mournblade, knows his history stuff! I kinda like history myself but aren't as knowledgeable nor have any sort of a degree in it. A friend of mine minored in history and my ex-boyfriend is an ancient history and WWII buff. My mother is a Civil War (American) buff. Anything I've learned of those periods, I learned from them as I never learned that nifty stuff in school (stupid USA school system! )


Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  18:15:00  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The main problem with American education is that kids get too bored, usually because the teachers can't actually teach. They just recite and expect you to remember.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore

USA
1298 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  18:18:56  Show Profile  Visit Shadowlord's Homepage  Send Shadowlord an AOL message Send Shadowlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course, I had an excellent physics honors teacher, who was eventually replaced by some college moron (No offense for those in college, I am referring to this one person only, not you.) who didn't know what she was talking about!

The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  18:31:13  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've never had a professor who didn't know what he was talking about. But I have had a few who simply couldn't teach. One actually did almost nothing but read from the book! Why did I pay for that class, anyway? I might as well have just paid for the book for all I got out of it. And since it was using the same book as part one of the course, which had a wonderful professor, I wouldn't have taken a loss.

These people are why I want to be a teacher. In fact, it was my Biology professor who convinced me of it. I was absolutely sure that for most of that semester, I could have taken her place and taught better by reading from the book -- and as you might have guessed, I don't conider such an act to be actually "teaching."

D&D ought to be required for teachers, don't you think? Of course, a bunch of them would just become munchkins, probably.

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore

USA
1298 Posts

Posted - 20 Feb 2004 :  18:39:11  Show Profile  Visit Shadowlord's Homepage  Send Shadowlord an AOL message Send Shadowlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, and that would be such a disgrace to the Realms......

The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader

USA
4740 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  19:36:13  Show Profile  Visit Bookwyrm's Homepage  Click to see Bookwyrm's MSN Messenger address Send Bookwyrm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But at the very least, it might get idiots like Jack Chick from going to/putting their kids through our colleges. Then they wouldn't get degrees, would have to settle for low-paying jobs, and generally pass out of society. Forget survival of the fittest -- it would be more like survival of the sane!

Ah, what a nice thought. Too bad it wouldn't be that easy . . . . As it is, it would make for a great addition to John Lennon's Imagine.

Imagine all the world . . . playing D&D . . . .

Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.

Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more.
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore

USA
1298 Posts

Posted - 21 Feb 2004 :  22:26:56  Show Profile  Visit Shadowlord's Homepage  Send Shadowlord an AOL message Send Shadowlord a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hehe, I like it. Of course, if we all got low-wage jobs, McDonalds would have an influx of employees.....

The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri.
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
759 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2018 :  16:00:09  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great Reader Bookwyrm,

I am certain I am about to step into a pit of hatred with my answer here, but here goes...

Paladins are just martial clerics, who have given up a certain amount of magical skills in lieu of the martial ones. Paladins are just simply a force multiplier of protection, enforcement, and determent. Now, the thing about it is...why were at one time Anti-Paladins the "bad" paladins of evil gods, and paladins were "good" paladins for good gods? What about the neutral ones? No paladin of Silvanus, or how about Kossuth? If you take into account what I've said, and use in my campaigns, you realize quickly that alignment restrictions on paladins are useless. Paladins in the founding days of Gary Gygax were quite simply a romanticization and comingling of the ideas of divine magics and martial skills of knights from a hybrid High Germanic Manorial time in Earth history. When juxtaposing materials from 1st edition Dungeons and Dragons against what and where it is now, one can quickly see that it was very old school, romanticized Medieval stuff.

A paladin of Shar, should be no different than a Paladin of Lathander, Oghma, or Moander (were he still alive, wait...).

Just my 2.3344908343 cents worth.

Best regards,



P.S. Let the heresy trial begin!!!! lol


quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm

Here's what I want to know. Why do non-martial gods and goddesses have paladins? For instance, Chauntea and Sune; they don't seem to be the types. And it was mentioned elsewhere that Kelemvor, who was now considered Lawful Neutral, also has paladins. If a paladin can only be Lawful Good, how can that fallow? Do the neutral powers have alternate classes to the paladin? (I ask that because I've heard of the anti-paladin.)


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
759 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  07:13:45  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey all, and specifically Great Reader Bookwyrm,

Just over two years of waiting and still, no hatred towards my response here! ;)

I figured I would stir the pot with my outlooks on things. There must be a great many Eldath worshipers here. :)

Best regards,



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5706 Posts

Posted - 12 Feb 2020 :  07:34:19  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, the times have caught up to your genius cpthero2. In 5E paladins can be any alignment so all of the things you note above are perfectly valid. Kudos to you.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
759 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  05:15:43  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

I just want to thank the academy, all of my supporters, the Old Mage, and especially Kadh yn Ororm al Mjol in supporting my endeavors. I wouldn't be up here with this Golden Paladin award without you all!
__________________

In all seriousness...I am really glad that they did that. One of my more favorite subjects to read on is ethical modeling and especially how it affects policy creation in economics and law. It is good stuff for my brain.

In fact, I've been thinking about starting up a scroll regarding ethical modeling for analyzing character's of the Realms, as well as for figuring out character builds. What do you think?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Well, the times have caught up to your genius cpthero2. In 5E paladins can be any alignment so all of the things you note above are perfectly valid. Kudos to you.

-- George Krashos


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
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