| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
zoso1977
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 18:58:36
|
|
I just finished reading this wonderful trilogy. But was left with the feeling that the ending was rushed to fit into a page limit. This isn't the first time I have felt this way in reading a FR novel. I also noticed that the vast majority of the novels run under the 320 pages. It leads me to wonder how much of these novels are cut/edited to fit in a certain amount of pages. With these edits how much of the story am I missing or do the authors change there stories to fit into the format??? Don't get me wrong I will continue to read and collect these novels. It's just sometimes I feel I have been cheated somehow. Has anyone else feel this way and what novels in particular felt shortened or rushed.
|
We are drifting in blind orbits helpless and alone-Jim Morrison |
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 22:48:25
|
I know for a fact that for Dalamar the Dark the author, Nancy Varian Berberik (and I hope I got her name right), had to cut a big chunk out of the novel to fit the 320 scheme.
Personally, I'd rather see the entire story even if it takes a second, fourth or tenth book, than to read something that feels like a patchwork.
But I doubt my opinion counts with Wizards |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
 |
|
|
scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 04:17:34
|
Your post went from the counselors and kings trilogy to an issue about being rushed with realms novels in general.  I have experienced thihs mostly with ed'S novels, but not so much with EC. This trilogy is great and any more discussion on your thoughts would be welcome |
|
|
|
maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 09:24:58
|
This is more due to the book trade industry than the author/editor relationship.
Apparently WotC only has a certain number of pages each year that can be printed. If one novel went over by 50 pages, it would mean that another would have to be 50 pages shorter. So authors are more than likely given a guide to the number of words and then write their story. If it goes over the count, then bits have to be cut.
So if you feel cheated, blame the book trade indutry who determine how many pages WotC can print in a year. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 13:04:36
|
| Yet books by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman and a few others cross this boundary with no obvious impact (to me) on the publishing schedule |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 13:26:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
This is more due to the book trade industry than the author/editor relationship.
Apparently WotC only has a certain number of pages each year that can be printed. If one novel went over by 50 pages, it would mean that another would have to be 50 pages shorter. So authors are more than likely given a guide to the number of words and then write their story. If it goes over the count, then bits have to be cut.
So if you feel cheated, blame the book trade industry who determine how many pages WotC can print in a year.
Hi, maransreth. I'm guessing that this was said in jest, but I'll respond as if you were stating fact.
Authors ARE given word counts, this much is true, and stories must be tailored to fit those parameters. The manuscript can vary by about 5,000 words either way and still be fit into the desired page count by playing with font and white space.
Page count is determined by a number of factors, but economics plays a large role. Simply put, it is more expensive to print and ship a 450 page book than a 320 page book, and since these two books would likely have the same cover price, there's no compelling financial reason to produce longer books. There is a demand for long fantasy books, certainly, and for a while, I wondered if the trend toward "epic" fantasy stories would persuade WotC to test the waters with longer, more complex novels. But it seems likely that they will stick with trilogies and series, at least in the shared world settings. Perhaps the new creator-owned line will have more flexibility in such matters as scope and length.
A consistent page count throughout a line is not a bad thing, at least from a financial point of view. If you know you're going to publish, say, twelve books in a calendar year, knowing the page count ahead of time makes it easier to budget for printing and shipping expenses. Knowing ahead of time how many pages the finished book will be makes life easier for the artists and cover designers. Perhaps some of the booksellers here could comment on issues of brand identity and shelf space.
Zoso, I'm glad to hear that you enjoyed the story. Your observation is one I've heard about more than one of my books. This is partly a storytelling decision. As the moment of final conflict approaches, the pace speeds up, the chapters get shorter, and the narrative appears in flashes of quickly-perceived impression, rather than leisurely description. Sometimes this adds intensity to the story, as it was intended to do, but sometimes it ends up feeling too condensed, too abrupt. It's a balancing act, and I don't always get it right--and certainly not in a way that will work for every reader.
For my next book, I'm trying something different: I'll write the "first act," then skip to the ending. I want the conclusion to feel complete and well-paced, almost like a short story that could stand on its own. Since this book ends the Songs & Swords series and will be the last book I write about these characters, a satisfying ending is particularly important. |
|
|
|
Renzokuken
Acolyte
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 13:28:25
|
| It may not be obvious. For example, if what maransreth says is true and Weis, Hickman, and Pierson all write novels in one given year and each of their novels is ~400 pages, then that may completely obliterate a novel printing for a lesser known author. |
Currently reading: Dark Elf Trilogy (FR) |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 13:33:05
|
| Elaine, in my experience, which still is somewhat limited as I don't get paid for writing my prose, it kinda is hard to stick to a specific word-count if you want to tell a story "right". Sure you can cut certain areas to make the word-count fit the requirements but this can bite you in the proverbial arse when you reach a point in a sequel story that now has to rehash all the stuff you wanted to put in Book One in the first place. Plus it might hurt the narrative if you did that part in a flashback. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
zoso1977
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 16:15:22
|
Elaine,
I throughly enjoy your stories and look forward to the next. My complaint seems to be geared toward the page limit imposed to the author. In sticking with the topic Counselors and Kings trilogy how much of the story was cut out due to editting, not included, or not told because of said limits? Also do you think Wizards will ever try "epic" type stories?? If so would you be interested if they did or with another publisher??
Thanks
David |
We are drifting in blind orbits helpless and alone-Jim Morrison |
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 18:47:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Elaine, in my experience, which still is somewhat limited as I don't get paid for writing my prose, it kinda is hard to stick to a specific word-count if you want to tell a story "right". Sure you can cut certain areas to make the word-count fit the requirements but this can bite you in the proverbial arse when you reach a point in a sequel story that now has to rehash all the stuff you wanted to put in Book One in the first place. Plus it might hurt the narrative if you did that part in a flashback.
I suppose the trick is to come up with a story that CAN be told in 95,000 words. The next step is to build the story structure in a way that tells this tale within the desired framework. This is where outlines come in handy.
It's not always easy, and sometimes it takes a LOT of revision, but it can be done. And when you're writing work-for-hire fiction, one of the things you know going in is that you have to hit the word count. You can't approaches this gig thinking, "How could anyone possibly mind? The story needed an extra 15,000 thousand words of peerless, deathless prose to become the tale I was meant to tell."  |
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 18:58:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Yet books by Margaret Weis & Tracy Hickman and a few others cross this boundary with no obvious impact (to me) on the publishing schedule.
The word count is established by contract. Some books are longer than others. Most of the mass market paperback originals come in at 90,000-100,000 words. Silver Shadows was longer than my other Harper books (aka "Songs & Swords" books), with a contracted word length of 110,000. City of Splendors had a limit of 140,000 words, and we used every one of them.
So yes, some WotC books are longer than others. Books that are first released in hardcover tend to be longer than paperback originals. If readers are paying hardcover prices, a big, hefty tome seems like more value for their money.
But to the best of my knowledge, there is no "publishing industry" limit as to how many pages any given publisher can print in a given year. That determination is made by the publisher. If WotC wanted to put out 10 books one year and 20 books the next, no one's going to stop them. Publishing is a business, and as in any other business, a publisher is likely to put out as much product as a) they have the resources to produce and b) they believe the market will bear. The bottom line is, well, "the bottom line," and the issue is profitability. More books doesn't necessarily mean more profit. After a certain point, you're competing with yourself. Not every reader could afford to purchase six FR books every month, and most readers would be choosing among offerings. |
|
|
|
ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 19:07:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by zoso1977
I throughly enjoy your stories and look forward to the next.
Thanks! Glad to hear it.
quote:
My complaint seems to be geared toward the page limit imposed to the author. In sticking with the topic Counselors and Kings trilogy how much of the story was cut out due to editting, not included, or not told because of said limits? Also do you think Wizards will ever try "epic" type stories?? If so would you be interested if they did or with another publisher??
In all candor, I don't really recall much about the editing process on Counselors and Kings. Things were a bit hectic back then, and I had some fairly serious and long-running health issues. This series marked the first time I missed a deadline, and I'm only now getting my feet back under me, professionally speaking.
I have no idea what plans WotC has in mind for the future. Freelancers work on a need-to-know basis, so I really couldn't tell you whether or not WotC plans to go with big, hefty tomes at some point.
My writing philosophy is "never say never," but at this point I don't see an epic FR story in my near future. I think that kind of storytelling could be very rewarding, but I'd prefer to put the time and effort into building my own setting, and developing created-owned characters. |
Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 20 Oct 2006 19:09:01 |
|
|
|
maransreth
Learned Scribe
Australia
157 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 22:11:16
|
I think next time I will remember to put some smilies in so people will know that I am jesting. ;) I always forget that fact with forum posting.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but Elaine mentioned something - one last book for the Song & Swords series. So no more books will feature Arilyn, Danilo or the Serpent after that one? |
Edited by - maransreth on 21 Oct 2006 09:03:37 |
|
|
|
zoso1977
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2006 : 22:17:19
|
Hi again Elaine,
After the forthcoming Song and Swords conclusion is there any plans to do anymore FR novels?? Also you hinted at creating your own world will it be a fantasy world with magic, wizards, elves and such with no technology??? Or is this in it's prelimary stages and to early to give us any info??
Thanks
David |
We are drifting in blind orbits helpless and alone-Jim Morrison |
|
|
|
MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2006 : 02:24:48
|
quote:
but I'd prefer to put the time and effort into building my own setting, and developing created-owned characters.
really, when can we expect that? any details? I would love that. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2006 : 11:43:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by maransreth
I think next time I will remember to put some smilies in so people will know that I am jesting. ;) I always forget that fact with forum posting.
Sorry to hijack the thread, but Elaine mentioned something - one last book for the Song & Swords series. So no more books will feature Arilyn, Danilo or the Serpent after that one?
Yep, but as she already said one should never say never |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
counselors and kings trilogy
