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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 04:37:46
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Righteous...
I'm asking basicly if this has been addressed before officially... as the wording... because what the book says IMHO is a tad bit silly, but that may be because I don't understand the latent workings of the special material... so I thought I'd ask here...
In the sourcebook Magic of Faerun, on page 177, it begins to describe special materials used in armors and weapons. My questions relate mainly to polearms and such.
Let's quote the material known as Dlarun to start. I'll underline the words that relate to my question.
quote:
Magic of Faerun, Page 178
Dlarun: This bone-white metal, sometimes known as icesteel, can take a high polish and is often mistaken for ivory when seen in finished items, but has a distinctive greenish sheen in candlelight. Dlarun ore is found in the clay dug from riverbanks, and when first refined it is soft and easily carved. A second heating makes it hard and durable. This property makes the metal ideal for decorative work and figurines.
Armor made from dlarun grants fire resistance 2. Weapons forged of dlarun inflict +1 point of frost damage each time they hit (this is cumulative with other abilities, such as frost or icy burst). Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected. (A longsword or a suite of chainmail is affected, while a spear or suit of studded leather is not.) Dlarun can never be used in a magic item that uses fire effects, such as a flaming or flaming burst weapon.
Dlarun weighs the same as steel, has hardness 10, and has 30 hit points per inch of thickness.
Market Price Modifier: Armor +2,000 gp; weapon +1,500gp.
Righteous... Now... I can understand why Dlarun would not meaningfully affect studded leather armor, but spears?... that's where I start to question.
If you refer to materials like Adamantine in the DMG 3.5, it doesn't seem to matter if the weapon is mostly metal or not...
So the main Question is:
Shouldn't polearms (Spears of all types, Halberds, Ranseurs, Guisarme, etc) with a metal striking surfaces or heads, be able to recieve the damage bonus of all the "elemental" metals presented in Magic of Faerun, since it seems that offensive contact with the metal departs the elemental damage upon another?
Thoughts from other people here would be much appreciated :D If no official word and what not has been said as to why this is, or changing this ruling, I'll probably toss this question at Mister Ed after enough debate and if I still feel the need...
Thanks!
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Stuffness.... >,> |
Edited by - BainIthron on 12 Oct 2006 05:24:49
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 05:43:12
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I can see your concern about spearheads, however from the 3.5 SRD we have this " Only weapons, armor, and shields normally made of metal can be fashioned from adamantine." that could lead to if a pole arm is a metal weapon within the terms of the rules. I suspect it is there someplace as far as that goes.
To you main concern about Dlarun, I would offer this explaination. The icesteel warhead on a polearm is of too small a mass to noticible inflict elemental damage. That in effect the air warms the metal enough to counter a natural ice effect that could be maintained by a weapon made of a far greater amount of metal.
I can offer other theiries as well. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 06:45:15
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| I kinda second the motion that spear heads are tiny. they are smaller than daggers and therefore dont have enough oomph to 'em. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 06:46:30
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I've always interpreted rules such as these to mean that the majority of the weapon or armor must be of the material in question.
Whether or not the 'business end' of a weapon is made of the primary material is, well, immaterial (pardon the pun).
If you ask Ed, I'd venture he'd say something along the same lines.
That said, blurring the rules is fine, so long as you can fit it within the rules/setting.
So, how about a high DC Craft: Weapon/Armor Smithing check, or you can rule the creator must have at least 15 ranks in the appropriate skill in order to ignore the rule(s) you're asking about.
Or of course you can just house rule it out to suit your gaming tastes, without modifying the rules at all.
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As to the "official" ruling...I've never come accross anything in the FAQ that talks about this.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 12 Oct 2006 06:48:43 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 07:21:55
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This has always been a bit of a private bugbear for me, but not in respect of the special materials showcased in 'Magic of Faerûn', but the spell "ironguard". It doesn't take into account the wooden parts of weapons such as spears and arrows whose metal tips wouldn't affect the bearer of the spell, but whose wood component would give them some nasty blunt-force trauma. On with the discussion.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 07:45:46
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George,
One could consider such weapons to automatically deal subdual damage, to the tune of one step down on the damage dice and half strength bonus.
The trick (and probably the reason the rules for this spell don't 'worry' about non-metal parts) is that it could become a hairy call for the DM to make on a case by case (read: weapon by weapon) basis --with lots of room for player whining.
Or one could just say the spell is 'smart' enough to know that an object made of some metal is in its effect so it can protect its target from the object, or that the spell 'nullifies' (perhaps 'makes incorporeal' is better) any object with respect to the protected creature so long as some portion of the object is made of metal.
A hard thing, balancing playability vs. detail/suspension of disbelief.
J. -who needs to find his muse RE: the Myth Drannor scroll he started- Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 12 Oct 2006 07:47:33 |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 13:40:51
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I tend to believe that it rather depends on the kind of spear. Several kinds of spears actually have very large broad blades. A Bisento would be the most stereotypical example, but would also relate to the Iklwa (made famous by Shaka Zulu, and copied for the Aiel of WoT fame). More traditionally both the Halberd and Glaive (as depicted in fantasy art) have very large, broad blades. I will also point to the film "Hero," wherein the first of the assassains utilizes a spear seemingly made entirely of metal.
Perhaps we could get Knight Errant Jr. to expound on this (I know that he has quite a bit of weapon lore).
-Walker |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 13:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by WalkerNinja
I tend to believe that it rather depends on the kind of spear. Several kinds of spears actually have very large broad blades. A Bisento would be the most stereotypical example, but would also relate to the Iklwa (made famous by Shaka Zulu, and copied for the Aiel of WoT fame). More traditionally both the Halberd and Glaive (as depicted in fantasy art) have very large, broad blades. I will also point to the film "Hero," wherein the first of the assassains utilizes a spear seemingly made entirely of metal.
Perhaps we could get Knight Errant Jr. to expound on this (I know that he has quite a bit of weapon lore).
-Walker
that is what I was thinking too...the archtype "boar" spearhead... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 15:00:10
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| Also, I've seen full metal spears that have hide wrappings on the 3 or 4 spots where you hold them. Their shafts are a lot thinner than their wooden counterparts, but they are an option. Same goes for axes (some axes have a metal haft). Granted, I'd only expect this on an expensive weapon... but if you're making a special material weapon you have money... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 16:26:42
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As much as this will be mostly enlightening for me to play for future PnP games I do play on occassion... I'm mainly researching this for another reason, otherwise, I would likely house-rule it :D. I'm developing an add-on pack of weapons and armors, and later PnP-izing the Martial and Exotic Weapon Feats, along with adding oh-so-many additional sourcebook weapons (provided I find the modellers) for the video game Neverwinter Nights 2. I still got a lot of work to go... but... I'd like to make all the said weapons and what not as accurate as possible :D The striking surface question came to mind because once I release it, people might ask why I didn't include certain weapons. The more I looked at it, it didn't seem to make an incredible ammount of sense of why the offensive properties of these metals didn't transfer. It would have made more sense if hardness/hp was just dropped, but the offensive property stayed. Eh, stuff :P
Another thought came to mind... has the said metals of darksteel, dlarun, fever iron, and hizagkurr ever been mentioned in source material or novels much beside Magic of Faerun? Maybe... it might give some idea as to a different reason they worded it the way they did? The current discussions are great so far though, it really helps :D. I'll make sure to link this post in the FAQ once I do finish. |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 16:57:50
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quote:
Originally posted by BainIthron
Another thought came to mind... has the said metals of darksteel, dlarun, fever iron, and hizagkurr ever been mentioned in source material or novels much beside Magic of Faerun? Maybe... it might give some idea as to a different reason they worded it the way they did? The current discussions are great so far though, it really helps :D. I'll make sure to link this post in the FAQ once I do finish.
most of those metals I think were mentioned in 2E Dwarves Deep and then revamped in 2E Volo's Guide to All Things Magical |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 17:30:59
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by BainIthron
Another thought came to mind... has the said metals of darksteel, dlarun, fever iron, and hizagkurr ever been mentioned in source material or novels much beside Magic of Faerun? Maybe... it might give some idea as to a different reason they worded it the way they did? The current discussions are great so far though, it really helps :D. I'll make sure to link this post in the FAQ once I do finish.
most of those metals I think were mentioned in 2E Dwarves Deep and then revamped in 2E Volo's Guide to All Things Magical
And the latter book is truly a wonderful resource, made better by the fact it's a free download from the Wizards downloads page.  |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 18:28:32
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| Wow... yeah, read through it... >,> Some of the metals were VEEEEEEEEEEERY different, and overpowered by todays standards in 2E :P |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 18:37:24
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They were, in some ways...but in 2E all the rare and unique metals and alloys were much more rarer than in 3E
The Book of Exalted Deeds has a few new metals too |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 19:45:01
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| Yeah, I'm using the Crystal Keep's d20 (3.0 and 3.5) Equipment lists, under the special material section... I -think- it has most of the new materals. However, the only materials I've had trouble with are the Magic of Faerun ones :D |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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BainIthron
Acolyte
USA
16 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 04:33:35
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Ah, it's a bit of a moot point now, but in case anyone is curious, or happens to find this during a search of the website... Sean K Reynolds, who was one of the lead designers on the Magic of Faerun book, responded here:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3805&whichpage=2
Thanks all for your responses! they've been helpful :) |
Stuffness.... >,> |
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Magic of Faerun Special Material Interpretations..
