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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2006 : 20:53:51
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** big scroll and possible minor spoilers**
The inspiration for this scroll came to me soon after I bought Realms of Dragons but it was I post I made today (in the Lost Empires of Faerun Poll/Scroll) that got my butt in gear to write it...
Ok, for those not in the know, Epic Spells come from the Epic Level Handbook, chapter 2 (this is a very generalized summary, and I don’t claim to know everything about epic magic)
- you need a feat (epic spellcasting) to cast epic spells (prerequisites: cast Lv 9 spells, have 24 or more ranks in your “knowledge” skill (arcane for wizards/sorcerers, religion for clerics, nature for druids) and you need the feat per type of spell cast (e.g. wizard/cleric needs the feat twice, one for wizard and one for cleric if you want epic arcane and divine spells)
- they are “super spells” without a “real” level (i.e. 0 to 9 level spells) instead you can cast 1 epic spell per day per 10 ranks (round down)
- they are developed/constructed by the spellcaster, needing to spend XP and GP to make the spell (similar to magic item creation) and it could take years to develop and cast the spell
- once you finish making the epic spell you don’t need to write it down or anything, you just know it...and you can choose to prepare it normally
- when you cast an epic spell it is not an automatic success, each epic spell has a Spellcraft DC check to make to see if the spell works (done every time the spell is cast)
- there is no limit to the power of an epic spell except the Spellcraft DC...the more powerful spell the higher the DC (in the Epic Handbook the highest spell DC listed is a DC 419)
- the core of an epic spell is a certain effect (e.g. creation, transportation, life, animation, etc.) called a “seed”
- there are factors in an epic spell’s development that will lower it’s DC so it will be easier to cast, “mitigating factors” (like HP damage, spending XP, use of very rare components, other casters helping cast it, etc.)
- the DM has the final say to allow an epic spell to be created
Now I have contemplated the idea of a “world spanning mythal” (abbreviated WSM for this thread) for a while now, I don’t want to seem pessimistic but I think the epic rules need to be errata’ed for the Realms as WSMs are a bit of a slippery slope if you actually think about the magical legacy of the Realms
Now for example, the Dracorage Mythal
Dragons of Faerun, p. 121-122: it takes [531,000 gp, 41,240 XP and 11 days] to develop and the final Spellcraft DC for the spell is DC 59...and has a pile of mitigating factors:
* 10 days and 20 minutes to cast
* only to affect dragons/dragonblooded and is linked to a to a keyed trigger (the comet)
* has a “cap stone” (physical embodiment)
* burns 20,000 XP
* 6 spellcasters that can cast epic spells needed
* 6 spellcasters that can cast 9th lv spells
* all spellcasters die with no resurrection
This is truly an epic spell, to affect all of Fearun (so it is not a true WSM) but if you look at it in a game mechanics way and add some Realms canon and logic, it is not too “epic” IMO
The elves could have increased the casting time even further (up to 100 days, 10 minutes, reducing the DC by another 180) or added a pile of more spellcasters (reducing the DC by hundreds) or even limit the spell area but then etch it on a stone tablet so others could cast it (without having to develop it) thus covering the same amount of area by multiple castings...the only horrible mitigation is the “death” one...but there are ways to get around that too...the point is as every epic spell is personal (except when etched) another spellcaster could duplicate the Dracorage Mythal but with totally different casting methods...
And see, the source of the problem is that other spellcasters can add their magical energies to the epic spell when it is being cast (they can contribute 1 spell slot for the spell, the spell slot is “cast” for the day”) and it doesn’t matter if the epic spellcaster is an arcane or divine spellcaster, if you have a spell of the right level you can contribute...so if it is a wizard casting the spell, a 2nd lv spell can be donated by a wizard, sorcerer, cleric, druid, paladin, ranger, bard, etc. So even the donator’s class type doesn’t really matter
Imagine if an epic-level wizard and a huge circle of other spellcasters got together:
2 casters (at least LV 22 spellcaster) that can cast epic spells (-38 DC)
5 casters (at least LV 17 spellcaster) that can cast Lv 9 spells (-85 DC)
5 casters (at least LV 15 spellcaster) that can cast Lv 8 spells (-75 DC)
10 casters (at least LV 13 spellcaster) that can cast Lv 7 spells (-130 DC)
10 casters (at least LV 11 spellcaster) that can cast Lv 6 spells (-110 DC)
20 casters (at least LV 9 spellcaster) that can cast lv 5 spells (-180 DC)
20 casters (at least LV 7 spellcaster) that can cast lv 4 spells (-140 DC)
40 casters (at least LV 5 spellcaster) that can cast lv 3 spells (-200 DC)
40 casters (at least LV 3 spellcaster) that can cast lv 2 spells (-120 DC)
60 casters (at least LV 1 spellcaster) that can cast lv 1 spells (-60 DC)
that is a total of -1138 to the DC of the (ritual) epic spell...that is not even counting any other mitigating factors...and the unaltered DC of the Dracorage mythal is DC 1185 (925 of that is due to covering Faerun).
Now how many nations in Toril’s past could have fielded that many spellcasters? Most of them...How many in the present time? Halruaa, Thay, Evermeet, maybe even the Harpers and the Zhentarim (if they recruited/conscripted) just as a brief list...
So what is the problem in the Realms? It is the numerous of epic level magic using nations...Netheril, Imaskari, Aryvandor, Narfell, Raumthar (sp?) off the top of my head...not to mention the Phaerimm, the Dragons and the Creator Races...and then there is the (undefined) magical history of Kara-Tur and Zakhara, both highly magical cultures...there are even hints that the rune magic of the giants and dwarves rivaled the elves and dragons...The fact that “mythical” magical effects in 2E are not that “mythical” anymore in 3E
We have already seen a lesser version of this example recently in the novel Blackstaff...that the Killing Storm wasn’t just a mass evocation but much more...and how Khelban “cleaned” it up...and the Raising of the Mythal in Elminster in Myth Drannor was an awesome climax to the novel  but in 3E doesn’t seem like that much of a huge task...heck, even Silverymoon has a mythal now (instead of “multiple wards” as the art of a true wizard or high mythal was supposed to be a lost art). The Elven Dracorage, the Elven Sundering, the Sarukh’s moving the Narrow Sea, Netheril’s mass weather magics, the great exodus of slaves by the Imaskar and their “god-bane” mythal, the Killing Storm, etc. Maybe even how the genies in Zakhara kicked out the dragons...all super-magical feats that can now be explained (and duplicated by a player’s PC) in 3E RPG mechanics.
Want to reforest Faerun? Want to leave the orcs in chaos forever? Want to fill in all the mountain passes around your kingdom? Want to ban the gods of evil forever? Want to create a line of forts along your kingdom’s border? Want to construct a channel to the ocean so your inland city can be a port? Want to make a land bridge between Evermeet and the mainland? This could all be done with epic magic, all you need is just to get a few of your friends together for an epic-spellcasting party  
Seriously though I understand the logistics of actually casting an epic spell in the Realms (relatively rarity of epic casters, Mystra’s permission [which is another point, Mystyl was a “let it all happen goddess of magic” so there should have been a lot more of these spells going on Pre-Fall of Netheril] and her Chosen, enemy spellcasters, demographics, etc.) and I love the fact that this kind of magic is in the Realms (which makes it unique, compared to Oerth, Krynn and Eberonn) but logically I think the vast potential of epic spell use and misuse in the Realms haven’t even been touched...with so may epic spellcasters there should be that many epic spells being flung around
*gets off of podium*
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
657 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2006 : 21:38:42
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I just want to say, additional participants in ritual is way unbalanced and needs a revision, there should be a limitation to the number of participants in the ritual. What would happen if ten thousand Halruaan wizards would contribute their own spell slot, or even worse what would happen if all arcanaloths would be ordered to participate in a ritual ...
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Wizbane
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 12:57:11
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*applause*
I say format the essay in a better way, throw in an "epic spellcasting" image of your choice and send the whole thing to Dragon.
A nice essay indeed..almost professional, if the topic allows for such statement :)
Wizbane |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 14:51:41
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I thought there was an Errata article or something that stated only High Magic not Epic magic could have unlimited participants. Epic magic surely has some limit on the number of casters... right?
either way, the rules regarding tableture of spells is strictly reproductional. Therefore if the spell requires the death of casters can't be altered when the person learns it. the new casters must redevelop the spell from scratch in order to do so.
also, the rules on backlash damage dont really explain how it interacts with multiple casters...
but otherwise yes, the spells development block is rather weak... compared to the dc 80 or so flood spell. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 15:06:37
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Thanks Wizbane
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
I thought there was an Errata article or something that stated only High Magic not Epic magic could have unlimited participants. Epic magic surely has some limit on the number of casters... right?
either way, the rules regarding tableture of spells is strictly reproductional. Therefore if the spell requires the death of casters can't be altered when the person learns it. the new casters must redevelop the spell from scratch in order to do so.
also, the rules on backlash damage dont really explain how it interacts with multiple casters...
but otherwise yes, the spells development block is rather weak... compared to the dc 80 or so flood spell.
Beirnadri, before I made the thread I downloaded the errata on the Epic Level Handbook from the WotC site and I didn't read anything about a limit to the number of participants to contribute to a epic casting...what gets me more is the fact that as long as you can cast that level of spell, any spellcaster can be a participant...I would think that if a arcane caster was casting an epic spell the other participants should be atleast other arcane casters
And I thought of that too...does the backlash and and XP cost affect every participant, or can it be divided up between the participants (making the ease of epic casting even more mind-boggling)
and you are right, if the epic spell has a "death" requirement then it cannot be removed, for that exact epic spell...and considering you cannot teach another an epic spell (unless you etch it, which doubles the DC) it is practicaly unalterable...but the effect of the epic spell can be copied, sometimes in a more effecent manor
personally, my guess for the DC for the Dragorage Mythal before the Dragons of Faerun book came out would ahve been at least around 150 or so...considering the area of the spell and the fact it can affect even the greatest of dragons |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 17:52:39
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Very good reasoning, Kalin!
Also a great explanation for all the tremendous world-shaking magics that the Realms has experienced... When was a mythal put around Silverymoon? I must have missed something... |
ShadowJack |
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Alediran
Acolyte
Argentina
36 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:17:00
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| What about the Waymeet, the Last Mythal of Aryvaandar? |
Alediran of House Tir'ent from Evermeet, the most knowledgeable elven family about Faerûn.
- Member of the Elven Netbook proyect |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Very good reasoning, Kalin!
Also a great explanation for all the tremendous world-shaking magics that the Realms has experienced... When was a mythal put around Silverymoon? I must have missed something...
I think it is a ret-con...for a long while (i.e. 2E) it was said that Silvermoon was surrounded by multiple wards akin to a mythal but not a ture mythal..then in Lost Empires of Fearun, as an example of a mythal they use "Silverymoon's Mythal"
It wouldn't surprise me now that many locations with "multiple wards" will ret-conned now to become mythals now (e.g. Hellgate Keep before it's destruction)...
and remember the strength of a mythal is equal to it's DC during casting..so there could eb alot of minor, low power/low DC mythals out there now.. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:21:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Alediran
What about the Waymeet, the Last Mythal of Aryvaandar?
I'm not sure what Waymeet really was...to me, Waymeet may have been the pinnacle of mortal magic in the Realms...a huge extra-dimensional space filled with hundreds (thousands?) of constructed portals..all controlled by a sentience..
I can't imagine how it was constructed outside of thousands of participants, an actual god stepping in to construct it or maybe it was more of a "closed" demi-plane that was seeded ages ago (that last bit is RPG/Planescape lore, novel fans may not understand it) |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:24:45
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Silverymoon is not a true mythal. Mythals recquire the mythal seed.
I would love to try and reconstruct mythals from legends..... hmm
Anyway, yeah mitigating factors to epic spells are in dire need of errata.
I think there should only be a certain number of casters (of course i agree with you of the same type) that a primary ritual leader can govern. I think the system for spellcasting should be redone completely more like the seed component and morphable spell formulas (some that favor some routes and classes can use only some seeds_ but this will obviously never happen bc it requires an overhaul to d&d. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
Silverymoon is not a true mythal. Mythals recquire the mythal seed.
are you sure? I don't have LEoF with me now...I remember the powers of the Silverymoon Wards being described in terms unter the mythal seed description |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:34:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
Silverymoon is not a true mythal. Mythals recquire the mythal seed.
are you sure? I don't have LEoF with me now...I remember the powers of the Silverymoon Wards being described in terms unter the mythal seed description
Aye, it is a mythal.
As for if there was 2e lore about it, it was rumored that Silverymoon had a mythal in Volo's Guide to the North. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 18:38:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As for if there was 2e lore about it, it was rumored that Silverymoon had a mythal in Volo's Guide to the North.
I remember some lore saying that Silverymoon was to get a mythal, the third of three cities in the north...with Ascalhorn/Hellgate Keep and Myth Glaurach..and become Myth Laurar (sp?) but with Ascalhorn's fall that idea was scrapped |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 19:17:48
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As for if there was 2e lore about it, it was rumored that Silverymoon had a mythal in Volo's Guide to the North.
I remember some lore saying that Silverymoon was to get a mythal, the third of three cities in the north...with Ascalhorn/Hellgate Keep and Myth Glaurach..and become Myth Laurar (sp?) but with Ascalhorn's fall that idea was scrapped
Not sure but that's not how it read in Volo's. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2006 : 20:02:56
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The Ward over silverymoon is described as a mythal in PGtF but I recall distinctly reading that it was considered a lesser mythal or a Wizards mythal rather than a High Magic Mythal due to its creation using secondhand notes on the ritual.
oh and yeah i remember hearing about silverymoon as a part of a trilogy of mythals. I think it had something to do with the notes of mythanthor or whoever created the "create mythal spell" |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
Edited by - Beirnadri Magranth on 11 Oct 2006 20:04:29 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 01:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
Silverymoon is not a true mythal. Mythals recquire the mythal seed.
are you sure? I don't have LEoF with me now...I remember the powers of the Silverymoon Wards being described in terms unter the mythal seed description
Aye, it is a mythal.
As for if there was 2e lore about it, it was rumored that Silverymoon had a mythal in Volo's Guide to the North.
And The North boxed set.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11695 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 16:35:01
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Yeah, so a spell that someone designs to take 10 days could be reduced back to a single day by someone contributing a 9th lvl spell. The multiple participants thing needs review. This was kind of the same problem with the circle spell in 2nd edition (though it was better controlled by a max caster level then), but those who were participants in the circle gave up ALL casting ability (or item activation ability) for that day (and have not already used some spells) in order to enhance their masters. I'd like to see the rule changed to that for multiple participants. After all, a kingdom might be willing to put their finest spellcasters in an area to cast an epic spell, but if every one of them is effectively making themselves defenseless.... they'll at least think twice about it. Otherwise, this makes a very tempting target for enemy's to pop in on.... and considering at least SOME of a kingdoms wizards/priests would also be depleted putting up some basic wards to protect the participants (anti-scrying, anti-teleporting, maybe some form of wall of force over them, etc...) who are giving up all their casting ability. Make it not such a great option for people to do.
Secondarily, I think there shouldn't necessarily be a limit to the number of casters, but perhaps a limiting return. For instance, if you have more than 9 donators, then perhaps the DC "mitigation" is cut in half. If you have more than 27, its cut to a quarter. If you have more than 81, its cut by 1/8th. If you have more than 243, its cut by 1/16th. If you have more than 729 participants, its cut by 1/32nd. Of course, these numbers are off the top of my head and may need some work. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 16:55:29
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, so a spell that someone designs to take 10 days could be reduced back to a single day by someone contributing a 9th lvl spell.
I agreed with your post (though I think soem epic spells are worth taking the chance of being helpless for 24 hours...I have thought of each participant permanently sacrificing a spellslot to participate) but I think you made a mistake...the participant is part of the casting of the spell, not the development...when the epic caster develope the spell he turns it into a ritual to include a certain amount of casters...and only that the exact number, no more, no less |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2006 : 17:29:42
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| Agreed. I think however the problems that arise when they try to make spells involve multiple casters (the exception being the feat 'cooperate spell' which works wonderfully) is the original way that people cast spells on an individual basis. I would like to see in fourth edition (if there is one) spells being created with elements and themes and more casters enhance that power. Idk if thats clear or not, its just speculation. |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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World Spanning Mythals & Epic Spells in the Realms
