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Drakul
Senior Scribe

USA
363 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  15:54:55  Show Profile  Visit Drakul's Homepage  Click to see Drakul's MSN Messenger address Send Drakul a Private Message  Reply with Quote
More Drow?? I might get it for my 31st if I don't get it sooner. Can't wait to get my hands on that book.

Realms of Roleplaying *We are recruiting DMs/GMs and Players*
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Faraer
Great Reader

3291 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  16:38:46  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some of the drow art is closer to albino than obsidian anyway.
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  19:16:45  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Won't be til next Thursday before I get this, if even then broke my glasses last week so had to get new ones

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Ardashir
Senior Scribe

USA
544 Posts

Posted - 16 May 2007 :  00:40:34  Show Profile  Visit Ardashir's Homepage Send Ardashir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've often wondered why some artists and games feel compelled to have elven ears that extend three feet beyond the elf's head...



How else are you supposed to know that they're elves? :D
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  02:12:11  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just found one thing that really really irks me about this book so far.
They are giving us a new Drow Language, instead of using/building on the one that was given in the original.

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FireKnife
Seeker

USA
48 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  06:04:59  Show Profile  Visit FireKnife's Homepage Send FireKnife a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was hoping they'd have the quagoths as a character race. trying to figure out what the racial bonuses to ablity scors would be. Any ideas?
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  14:20:48  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR


Some examples? Long blocky faces, female drow with mullets, and (my least favorite) drow with World of Warcraft elf ears (seriously, this SHOULD NOT BE).


I've often wondered why some artists and games feel compelled to have elven ears that extend three feet beyond the elf's head...



I think it's more of a marketing thing. You have to admit, the WoW thing is blowing up. So, maybe the artist, or the art director decided to go that way to try to sell more... Honestly, I agree with KEJr and Wooly, long ears =/= FR elves.

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  14:29:24  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I was really surprised a few years back when I read an editorial by Erik Mona that mentioned that many of the people that work on WOTC products and Paizo's magazines actually don't know much about D&D. One of the reasons that the "iconics" were invented for Paizo was to have set visual reference without having to explain what an elf is suppose to look like, or a drow, etc.

So it may be that whoever that particular artist is, they may only be familiar with WoW elves . . . that having been said, that doesn't let the art director/editors off the hook when they recieve the piece.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  18:57:23  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I can "live" with the 2-foot long ears, but I draw the line at the 2-foot long eyebrows.

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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  20:40:20  Show Profile  Click to see Crennen FaerieBane's MSN Messenger address Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh c'mon - Just because my blood elf has 2 ft long red eyebrows that twitch like a grasshopper. :) J/k

Re-rail topic:

Is this a general overview of the Drow? Are there any specific references to FR, or does it stick with the standard Greyhawk Canon? As Drow/Fey'ri are my favorite races, I need to know if I should pick this up.

C-Fb

P.s. - Back to my eyebrow ladies. :)

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  22:26:20  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said in my overinflated post (heh), I don't regret buying it. The feats and spells make sense for drow, at least some of the new monsters are interesting, and the overall psychology of the drow seems to be right in line with FR drow. That having been said, the sample city is the city in the Vault of the Drown on Oerth, and FR is actually mentioned as an aberration in there is a drow pantheon instead of just Lolth (which strikes me as strange, since the old 1st edition references to GH drow mentioned that they seemed less devoted to Lolth, though she was their main deity, and more likely to worship other demon lords and arch devils, and one of the main conflicts in the Vault of the Drow was which houses were loyal to the Elder Elemental God and which ones were loyal to Lolth).

While the book constantly mentions that its about "core" drow, in some places it falls into a sort of pattern of "generic paragraphy, generic paragraph, generic paragraph, In the Realms . . ."

One of the problems with this syndrome is that they feel like FR drow with all the FR stuff filed off of them in parts. Plus, they make a note in the monster section that all of the "In the Realms" sidebars assume that Lolth's silence hasn't ended yet. Huh?

In the Realms products its been over for over a year . . . why would they do that?

As mentioned above, the drow language section reinvents the wheel, and explains that the reason drow and elven sound different is because drow use undercommon along with their elven words. Personally I would have gone with Abyssal influencing elven, but hey, that's me.

Given how little this seemed to reference anything but one city in Greyhawk, I think they could have done a bettter job had they made it a Realms sourcebook, but then they wouldn't have gotten all of the vehement anti Realms people to buy it. I will say this . . . its about a thousand times more relevant to someone running a drow in FR than it is to someone running a drow in Eberron . . . there is almost no drow lore in this book that works with Eberrons versions of them.


"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2007 :  23:20:02  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

Given how little this seemed to reference anything but one city in Greyhawk, I think they could have done a bettter job had they made it a Realms sourcebook, but then they wouldn't have gotten all of the vehement anti Realms people to buy it. I will say this . . . its about a thousand times more relevant to someone running a drow in FR than it is to someone running a drow in Eberron . . . there is almost no drow lore in this book that works with Eberrons versions of them.





Have to agree with that, and some idiot DM was convincing a player in his Eberron game to get this but I had saved the player at least temporarily, since I had got the last copy.

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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1792 Posts

Posted - 19 May 2007 :  06:04:00  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
KnightErant: help me out here... yay or nay? I'm still hesitating to buy and need a paladin-clear recommendation!
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore

USA
1280 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2007 :  02:52:45  Show Profile  Send SirUrza an AOL message  Send SirUrza an ICQ Message Send SirUrza a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Garbage. Garbage. Garbage.

4 designers. 2 editors.

Not a single one of them knows anything about the D&D product line apparently.

War of the Spider Queen is over. It's been over for a long time now, we're on to new things.

When I got to the campaigns & adventures section of the book and saw that the picture of Xil'etha the soulknife had the wrong color hair, the wrong color mind blade, and was carrying weapons... I was glad I didn't buy this book.

Borrow it from a friend and photocopy the feats section, get a PDF some how, buy it used in 10 years, but don't give Wizards of the Coast a penny for it.

"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy.

Edited by - SirUrza on 24 May 2007 02:53:42
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2007 :  13:23:15  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks especially for your thoughts KnightErrantJR and thank you SirUrza. Having browsed the Table of Contents and this scroll to discover that some of the drow have donkey ears (these _are_ the elves that live in tunnels, aren't they?), there is a Kinslayer prestige class (isn't that the point?) and that there is a Spider Form spell I think I'll file this one as a non-essential purchase.

It's strange after enjoying the drow for so many years to decide against buying a book titled Drow of the Underdark but I feel that my version of drow is really rather different from the drow that are portrayed in this book. I would have thought that a spell that mimics the holy spider would be blasphemous. (Perhaps that's the point) However, judging from KnightErrantJR's comments it seems that all the other deities are scarcely mentioned. so I'll assume that Spider Form is a spell that a Lolthite drow is meant to cast - according to this book.

Thanks again to those who've given their thoughts. I value them because I don't have the option of browsing a real copy.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2007 :  23:53:20  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

Thanks especially for your thoughts KnightErrantJR and thank you SirUrza. Having browsed the Table of Contents and this scroll to discover that some of the drow have donkey ears (these _are_ the elves that live in tunnels, aren't they?), there is a Kinslayer prestige class (isn't that the point?) and that there is a Spider Form spell I think I'll file this one as a non-essential purchase.

It's strange after enjoying the drow for so many years to decide against buying a book titled Drow of the Underdark but I feel that my version of drow is really rather different from the drow that are portrayed in this book. I would have thought that a spell that mimics the holy spider would be blasphemous. (Perhaps that's the point) However, judging from KnightErrantJR's comments it seems that all the other deities are scarcely mentioned. so I'll assume that Spider Form is a spell that a Lolthite drow is meant to cast - according to this book.

Thanks again to those who've given their thoughts. I value them because I don't have the option of browsing a real copy.



IMHO a much better Drow Sourcebook is Plot and Poison by Green Ronin, it is a 3.0E book though.
http://www.greenronin.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=1001&Product_Code=grr1103

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Edited by - warlockco on 30 May 2007 23:54:03
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2007 :  21:35:30  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

KnightErant: help me out here... yay or nay? I'm still hesitating to buy and need a paladin-clear recommendation!



Sorry I did't respond to this sooner. I guess it would depend on what kind of D&D fan you are. I doubt any of the "In the Realms" sidebars are going to be enough to make someone say, "wow, I have to use this in my campaign."

There is a lot of "ground floor" utility, i.e. if you just need stats for a quaggoth guard or a priestess of Lolth. Some of the feats would be good for other monsters beyond drow (nearly anything with innate darkness casting abilities would do well to be able to see through them, for example, I can picture some of the "bodyguard" feats working well for battleragers defending their king or Rashemi berserkers protecting their witches).

And I did kind of like the "binder lite" warlock PrC.

But in the end, I'll put it this way. Every other monster book, from the Draconomicon through the Fiendish Codex II gave me some really cool campaign ideas to throw around, story elements, villains, etc. I read through this one and thought . . . hm . . . drow.

If you have read any FR sourcebook or novel about drow, you've probably figured out everything (and more) that the "non mechanical" part of the book has to say. Matriarchal society, matron mothers, social climbing through warfare and assasination, Lolth is a number one, etc. So you aren't missing anything there (or rather, the book is missing a lot it could have done).

Which means FR fans will likely be sold on the book based on mechanics along. And they are functional, but not inspiring. Overall, I'd give it a 60% out of 100. Its not a failure, and its useful, but its definately a far way from a "must buy."

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1792 Posts

Posted - 01 Jun 2007 :  22:28:12  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cheers to all my peers!

I finally decided to go for it, despite the knowledge that it's probably substandard. Why? well, I kinda have this feeling that 4.0 will rear its ugly head soon, and have decided to buy most things 3.5 as my gaming group and I are making a stand on the current iteration of the rules... (there has been enough 3.5 stuff put out to last us for another 30 years methinks...)
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe

USA
947 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2007 :  04:58:16  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Why? well, I kinda have this feeling that 4.0 will rear its ugly head soon,


say it ain't so, Joe



When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2007 :  10:07:03  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Page 108.

If you have this book (and yes! contrary to my earlier post I did end up buying this book), turn to page 108 and read the paragraph about Adamantine Spiders in Faerun. Apparently, Menzoberranzan was over-run by the Kiaransaleen during the Silence of Lolth. Despite my oft-professed admiration for Kiaransalee, I'm not rejoicing since of course this event clearly did not happen.

How did such an obvious mistake slip through?

Or is a hint of things to come?

Any thoughts?

Aside to moderators: If this subject has been discussed in another scroll please direct me to it. Thank you. :)

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2007 :  12:08:51  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

Page 108.

If you have this book (and yes! contrary to my earlier post I did end up buying this book), turn to page 108 and read the paragraph about Adamantine Spiders in Faerun. Apparently, Menzoberranzan was over-run by the Kiaransaleen during the Silence of Lolth. Despite my oft-professed admiration for Kiaransalee, I'm not rejoicing since of course this event clearly did not happen.

How did such an obvious mistake slip through?

Or is a hint of things to come?

Any thoughts?

Aside to moderators: If this subject has been discussed in another scroll please direct me to it. Thank you. :)





Off the cuff I'm inclined to think that when someone wrote that blurb that they mistook the events in Maeremydra with Menzoberranzan, assuming that the events of "City of the Spider Queen" had to take place in THE city. Given that they keep saying that the Silence isn't over either, I wouldn't trust many of the "In Faerun" sections in that book, but that's just me.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29798 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2007 :  13:37:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's Kiaransaleen propaganda.

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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe

United Kingdom
762 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2007 :  15:52:08  Show Profile Send Kiaransalyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The line I like from that blurb is "Kiaransalee's devoted swept through and toppled the ruling regime of their enemies" since it implies that the Kiaransaleen destroyed the enemies of the ruling regime. At least, that is how it reads to me.

KnightErrantJR - Yes, you're right they probably did mean Maerimydra. I guess it is easy to confuse it with Menzoberranzan. After all, one is a city that is rarely mentioned and the other has almost constant exposure.

Wooly Rupert - You're probably right. It's ironic that it's the one thing that caught my interest in that book. The rest of it is rather disappointing.

Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness


Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29798 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2007 :  16:12:39  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn

KnightErrantJR - Yes, you're right they probably did mean Maerimydra. I guess it is easy to confuse it with Menzoberranzan. After all, one is a city that is rarely mentioned and the other has almost constant exposure.



And because of its near-constant exposure, some people seem to think it's the greatest city in all of the Underdark -- despite canon statements that it's not that noteworthy of a city, even among the drow.

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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1792 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2007 :  19:21:41  Show Profile  Click to see Purple Dragon Knight's MSN Messenger address Send Purple Dragon Knight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale

quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Why? well, I kinda have this feeling that 4.0 will rear its ugly head soon,


say it ain't so, Joe

Wow... I must be a seer or something... the 4th edition came out about a week after my post!
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