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Sian
Senior Scribe

Denmark
596 Posts

Posted - 16 Oct 2006 :  12:31:15  Show Profile  Visit Sian's Homepage  Click to see Sian's MSN Messenger address Send Sian a Private Message  Reply with Quote
theres proberly more drow to go around allready than any other races ... with the 'small' races even together ... give us another thing ... drows are boring and stereotypic

i know for sure that i wouldn't buy it ... basicly because drows never even remotely interested me, proberly because it have been tied up on young roleplayers that think they know anything ... and then only know something about drows because they threwed though a couple of books

what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe

USA
947 Posts

Posted - 21 Oct 2006 :  18:23:50  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
for an FR player, this may be useless especially if they have Underdark and older drow materials.



When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  14:54:03  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
... and may be not, specially if the book came full of lore, good ideas, and interesting plots.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  14:57:14  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin

... and may be not, specially if the book came full of lore, good ideas, and interesting plots.



I agree...but then again, with a large library of 1E and 2E material I didn't find the Draconomicon that original...it was mostly a 3E conversion manual to me (with nice pictures)

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1120 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  15:22:31  Show Profile  Visit Chosen of Moradin's Homepage  Click to see Chosen of Moradin's MSN Messenger address Send Chosen of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originality, basically, is defined by the degree of sucess that an old concept is remodeled.

Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2007 :  18:09:34  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Some excerpts from the product are up at WOTC's site now:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070430a

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2007 :  18:18:23  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Looking through the ToC, I'm still interested in this one. I know that it can be used for Drow PCs, but it definately looks like most of this is geared towards using drow as really nasty villains in a campaign (hence why its kind of set up like the other "Expanded Monster" series books).

Several of the feats answer some problems that 3.5 created with they changed how some of the signature drow abilities work, so they definately appear to be useful (I may shift back from having my drow use Veil of Shadows instead of Darkness).

Since its a core book and not an FR one, I'll be interested in seeing how they flesh out Lolth's relationships with the other drow deities (there is a mention of Kiaraunsalee in the preview materal).

I'm not sure where they are going with the albino drow entry for the monsters. FR has had at least two albino drow that I can think of, but neither of them had any special traits other than their lack of pigments. I'm wondering if they are going for some kind of "malenti" thing here?

At any rate, I'll give it a look when it comes out, and it could be useful for fleshing out my City of the Spider Queen 3.5 conversions (someday I will run this thing, I swear!)

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2007 :  18:42:32  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Know what you mean KEJr, though some of the feats were, wth? to me, but I will reserve final judgement til after I have it in hand. And will most likely get it regards of how good or bad it is.

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2007 :  19:00:42  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had to reread the one that allows you to burn your Darkness ability to gain hide in plain sight, because for some reason, when I first read it, I kept thinking that they meant you couldn't hide in the concealment from your own darkness unless you did this . . . then it struck me that they mean that instead of causing darkness, you just go straight to hiding in plain sight without the telltale sign of darkness going off.

The faerie fire feats just look like an attempt to make the ability useful beyond the one use that everyone associates it with, which is kind of funny. "Well, I'd better outline this guy so I can keep track of him," says drow 1, "Well what else would you use it for," replies drow 2.

Not sure what the various "square switching" feats have to do with drow.

Knight of Lolth isn't going to be especially practical since most drow in FR ride lizards since spiders are too holy to use as mounts.

But as you say, it will be interesting to see what can be used out of here.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 03 May 2007 :  23:17:50  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A few more bits about this book in the previews for this month:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20070503a

Since darkvision doesn't work like infravision used to, I'm wondering if Narbondel might have some kind of effect similar to Darkvision Powder now?

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2007 :  23:16:05  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote


The book isn't even out yet, and there is already an Errata out on it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2007 :  23:41:48  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had to laugh at that too. I take it that the base creature made it in, but the example "advanced" creature was cut from the entry, but was still referenced.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2007 :  02:18:09  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

I had to laugh at that too. I take it that the base creature made it in, but the example "advanced" creature was cut from the entry, but was still referenced.



Just shows that apparently the editors are taking nice long naps or something...

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 08 May 2007 :  03:19:06  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
For what its worth, I kind of like the weird goblin things, and it gets back to the feeling that I've always gotten from Ed's work mentining drow, that being that they perform weird mutation and breeding experiments on their slaves and captives.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore

Germany
1719 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  13:36:36  Show Profile Send Ergdusch a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco



The book isn't even out yet, and there is already an Errata out on it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a



Unbelievable!!! But at least those buying the book know the errors in advance!

"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht."
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe

USA
418 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  16:51:00  Show Profile  Visit dwarvenranger's Homepage Send dwarvenranger a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco



The book isn't even out yet, and there is already an Errata out on it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a


I've had my copy since May 4th. It's pretty interesting, like all books some of it I will use, some of it I won't.

If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29636 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  17:12:00  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch

quote:
Originally posted by warlockco



The book isn't even out yet, and there is already an Errata out on it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a



Unbelievable!!! But at least those buying the book know the errors in advance!



I think its likely that it was not as much an error, as it was something lost in the shuffle. Its easy to overlook or forget something, particularly when you're in a hurry.

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  18:34:33  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger

quote:
Originally posted by warlockco



The book isn't even out yet, and there is already an Errata out on it: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070504a


I've had my copy since May 4th. It's pretty interesting, like all books some of it I will use, some of it I won't.



Interesting, since WotC books usually aren't out til the 2nd or 3rd week of the month. Sounds like a possible "street date" violation.

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5399 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  22:54:49  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I picked this one up today. I've had a little time with it, but my initial impression is that I'm not disappointed with the purchase, though I've noticed a few oddities. Overall, I like the feats, spells, and monsters in it, and I think its handy to have "generic" stats for drow in various positions in an average house (there are stat blocks for various drow of different positions in drow society).

What's interesting to me is how drow society is presented in the book. Given that its a "core" book and not a FR book, and the fact that there is an overview of Ereli-Cinlu in the book, I was expecting a more "Greyhawk" view of drow. By that I mean that, way back in 1st edition, Lolth was listed as the primary dieity of the drow, and in the Queen of Spiders series, Lolth was dominant but the "Dark God" had a lot of followers in the Vault of the Drow as well.

Further, other 1st edition souces mentioned that while Lolth was the main goddess of the drow, many drow worshiped other archdevils and demon lords. So it kind of surprised me when the drow presented in the book are definately FR style drow. Lolth is all to them, and she is the only deity really detailed in the book (I'm sure I missed a few, but so far I've only found very fleeting references to Ghaunadaur, Vhearaun, and Kiaraunsalee).

And while its a core book and it wouldn't automatically be binding one way or another, for those keeping track, Lolth is still presented as an intermediate diety.

Other "halfway FR" oddities: There is a brief mention of the old elven myths referring to Lolth as Araushnee. Also, Hanali and the Seldarine are mentioned (I know, in 2nd edition these concepts weren't FR only, but in 3.5 "Core" they haven't been mentioned before).

One of the strange thigns about the drow creation myths and the information on Lolth, however, is that there is not reference to Lolth ever having been a demon lord/lady at all, and Yochlol's are mentioned as servants of Lolth "in the Forgotten Realms," even though they are mentioned in the Fiendish Codex I.

I like that they have given a place in drow society to warlocks, given their association with demons and the like.

There is also a sidebar at the end that updates half-drow and creates a regional feat for them specifically for FR half-drow.

I normally don't complain about artwork. If it doesn't do much for me, then it just doesn't. But some of this art, especially when the text is trying to play up how alluring the drow are, is just ugly. It doesn't match the feeling they are trying to convey.

One last oddity . . . albino drow are listed in the mosnters section, even though they litterally are just albinos. They have the exact same stats as drow, but without any pigment in their hair and skin (and red eyes, but they ARE drow). Does this mean that the Monster Manual V will have entries for albino dwarves, humans, halflings, elves, gnomes, etc? The cool thing is that at least they specifically mention Irae T'sarran in the entry.

Some examples? Long blocky faces, female drow with mullets, and (my least favorite) drow with World of Warcraft elf ears (seriously, this SHOULD NOT BE).

Especially if you are looking to use drow as villains, there is a lot to like in here. New poisons, magical poisons, some nasty PrCs that as a DM I want to use (but I'd pull my hair out if my players ever wanted to use). Lots of utilitarian spells and magic items.

I do wish that they had detailed a few other drow deities (Zinzerana is mentioned as a drow mythic hero). I would have liked to have seen a feat that allowed a drow to cast darkness at a distance (I wonder why) or a spell of the same. But overall, a lot to like in the book.


"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29636 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  23:18:02  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR


Some examples? Long blocky faces, female drow with mullets, and (my least favorite) drow with World of Warcraft elf ears (seriously, this SHOULD NOT BE).


I've often wondered why some artists and games feel compelled to have elven ears that extend three feet beyond the elf's head...

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Faraer
Great Reader

3291 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  23:45:17  Show Profile  Visit Faraer's Homepage Send Faraer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Dark God is T-------n: Lolth's big rival in Erelhei-Cinlu is the Elder Elemental God -- not the same, whatever Monte wrote. Non-demonic Lolth sounds bizarre.

Hypertrophied bunny antenna-ears must be one of the few bits of the Warcraft look not pilfered from Games Workshop. I guess they like them -- some kind of aesthetic gap.

I want to see the mullets. I saw a beautiful girl with a beautiful, sharp, graceful mullet in a Polish supermarket.

Edited by - Faraer on 09 May 2007 23:55:18
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 09 May 2007 :  23:52:51  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

One last oddity . . . albino drow are listed in the mosnters section, even though they litterally are just albinos. They have the exact same stats as drow, but without any pigment in their hair and skin (and red eyes, but they ARE drow). Does this mean that the Monster Manual V will have entries for albino dwarves, humans, halflings, elves, gnomes, etc?




That's absurd, and when you think about it, kind of offensive (that albinos are "different" and need to be distinguished from the "normal people").

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  00:05:38  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR


Some examples? Long blocky faces, female drow with mullets, and (my least favorite) drow with World of Warcraft elf ears (seriously, this SHOULD NOT BE).


I've often wondered why some artists and games feel compelled to have elven ears that extend three feet beyond the elf's head...



Blame Anime for that. The super long ears on Elves is an Anime style.

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  00:09:45  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Definately have to agree with KEJR about the Art Department over at WotC.
The artwork in many of the books now is so horrid, it almost looks like I had attempted to make it.
Seems the only place that they really try for the good art anymore is on the cover.
Would be so nice if they would use more art from Todd Lockwood, Wayne Reynolds, Sam Woods, and many of the others that did the "iconic" art when 3E first came out.
Its not like they don't have a large talent pool to pull from, many of these same artists also do art for the Magic cards.

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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2949 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2007 :  15:11:30  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

One last oddity . . . albino drow are listed in the mosnters section, even though they litterally are just albinos. They have the exact same stats as drow, but without any pigment in their hair and skin (and red eyes, but they ARE drow). Does this mean that the Monster Manual V will have entries for albino dwarves, humans, halflings, elves, gnomes, etc?




That's absurd, and when you think about it, kind of offensive (that albinos are "different" and need to be distinguished from the "normal people").



I agree, this is one of the more tasteless things I have seen (or rather not seen as I have not read the book myself)in a D&D product for some time. Or thoughtless I should rather say. And a little strange as I would think there would be plenty of use for the space to detail other elements of the Drow. An attempt to tempt Elric fans perhaps?

As for the art thing, well 3ed. is not to my taste in that area. Not even Lockwood.
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