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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 15:40:23
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Hi,
I have just found another of my old 2e char sheets. But it has caused a question regarding the 2e sabre compared to current rules.
In 2e the sabre was a light slashing weapon favored by swashbucklers using single weapon prof. yes
Now in 3.5e PHB and FRCS the sabre is listed as a long heavy sword specilized for mounted use, favored by the Tuigan and Nars.
Why the change??
I know I can use the rapier but something about the sabre just sat well. Please let me know.
Oh and why has the scimitar changed shape?
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 15:49:34
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::sigh:: D&D does many things well, but using weapon terminology isn't one of them . . .
Traditionally scimitars and "sabres" as they were presented in 2nd edition were really the same things in the "real world" and the thick bladed curved swords were much more like falchions. So in a way, scimitars are sabres from 2nd edition.
The problem is falchions really shouldn't be two handed weapons.
It gets even more confusing when you add great scimitars and great falchions from Sandstorm. Great scimitars from sandstorm are essentially 1st/2nd editions scimitars, which you can use with one hand if you take an exotic weapon proficiency. Great falchions are big falchions that you can only use if you have exotic weapon proficiency great falchion.
Personally, I would get rid of the "standard" falchion, and just go with scimitars, great scimitar/falchion as one weapon (use two handed with no proficiency just like bastard swords), and great falchions.
Traditionally (not in D&D) I beleive that sabre is a term for heavy curved horse swords, but later on it was a term used for a shorter curved version of the rapier used in dueling.
Anyone that knows more than me, feel free to chime in on this one. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 15:51:30
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| The duelling version is the one I know of and as I persived the 2e one to be. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 15:59:23
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If I remember correctly, that was pretty much how they presented it in the old 2nd edition Fighter books and in the Arms and Equipment Guide.
I'd say as a substitute in 3.5 you could either use scimitar (if you use it primarily as a slashing weapon) or a rapier if you primarily use it as a thrusting weapon/dueling weapon. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 16:04:44
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Thanks though I have my hands full at the moment but I will get around to converting this char soon, He also is on a foray into Spelljammer, so I will have to get him to the realms again.
He is a Half-elf Swashbuckler fighter type so i'll prob make him a fighter 1st then give him the Duellist PrC, I'll make up his levels to equal his current exp.
but thanks again |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 16:12:59
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Traditionally (not in D&D) I beleive that sabre is a term for heavy curved horse swords, but later on it was a term used for a shorter curved version of the rapier used in dueling.
Anyone that knows more than me, feel free to chime in on this one.
That sounds about right, JR. Sabers evolved from the Western European horseman's sword, which, after some time (no one's really sure when the advent of the cavalry saber came) were almost exclusively curved, so as to maximize the cut with a ride-by attack. As armor became lighter and disappeared entirely, sabers became lighter and the style tended toward quicker, minimalist attacks.
(Note that the modern fencing saber is *NOT* the same weapon, no more than a foil is the same as a rapier. Sport fencing is meant to simulate actual swordfighting, to provide a sense of what it may have looked like. Actual sabers do not bend the way sport ones do, and neither do rapiers bend like sport foils.)
Now, of course, different cultures evolved with different swords at different times. The scimitar comes from the middle east (it's the dervish sword), which developed the concept of a curved blade (earlier Turkish swords had been straight; scholars say the scimitar appears in the 15th-16th centuries Turkey); the same principle with the katana of Japan (the samurai were noted horsemen), though that was much earlier. Scholarship is quite split on the dates and whatnot, and there's a deal of debate over who-had-what first. It's possible curved sabers were originally inspired from one of the eastern swords, or vice versa (I hold to the former view myself but am not really a sword historian, so I'll happily be corrected).
Wikipedia (if the PTB will excuse the outside link) has a fairly standard and helpful entry on the sword in question: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saber
As for falchions -- I (and scholarship, for that matter) don't have a perfect sense of what a falchion is (it's one of the more ambiguous weapons, since it was not as commonly used and has fewer surviving samples than other weapons, not to mention that there were a number of variations), but as far as I (and history) am concerned, it's NOT a two-handed scimitar. It's not even necessarily be two-handed. That's just game mechanics.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falchion
Basically, D&D tries to put together in one world all kinds of swords that evolved at different periods to suit warfare of the time. A man fighting longsword against rapier is much like a German luger against a modern, police-issue beretta (or, if you want a more dire comparison, a WWII rifle against an AK-47). It's just totally different.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 25 Sep 2006 16:15:26 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 17:14:46
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Problem is the term Saber/Sabre is used to several different sword types.
Because there were Calvary Sabres, which was basically a type of Longsword.
There were Fencing Sabres, a Heavy "Rapier" used for slashing.
There were Pirate Sabres, more akin to the Fencing Sabre than to a Cutlass.
The problem is many sword names we have, can be applied to several sword types.
Claymore for Example. Most people thing of the big Scottish Two-Handed Sword, but there is also a "Longsword" Claymore that has a basket hilt, and this is also Scottish. |
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Delzounblood
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
578 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 11:02:06
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Thanks Eric, that sort of clears up the sabre I think I'll either use 2e rules or just use a scimitar!
Warlockco, Claymore's now thats a totally different story!
There are two schools of thought for both Historians and Hollywood!
1: The Great Sword portrayed in Braveheart is said to be a claymore by Hollywood and a section of Arms Historians, unfortunatly joe public belives this mis-conception!!
2: And in my belife correct! The Claymore is a one handed basket hilt broad sword (blade sharp on both sides as opposed to a back blade where the blade is sharp only on one side!) also known as A Scottish Bastard Sword.
The reason I know so much is:
A: I am Scottish.
B: I have both a Great Sword and a Claymore, aswell as many other swords and knives.
C: I often wear a kilt and have for special occasions worn a sword.
D: I was a member of The Sealed Knot and had a licence to carry and use a sword for re-enactment events, aswell as for practice.
E: I have researched the claymore to get to the bottom of this issue before.
My original question was why WotC have changed specs, I know they are not exact all the time, something which we all should know and understand.
But thanks all for your imput. |
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2e Sabre change in classification to 3.5e
