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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 01:21:56
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Maybe she only permits multiclassed Rangers, logic does not apply to the realms.
Maybe in 2nd if one wanted to be a Ranger they needed to muticlass and be female. I will note that DD did not list Rangers as Clergy (Though Vhaeraun has listed as Clergy Thieves) *shrugs*
Internal consistancy has been a problem even in 2nd because of how much lore, expansions, etc. that came out. 3.X trying to convert older lore clearly runs the same risk. The F&P text is of course one thing that fueled the belief that gender restriction might have been listed.
Oh also as best I can tell Ghaunadaur has no gender bias , there again many of his followers have no gender. *wink*
Lolth clearly had some, which became more enforced in transition to 3.0 (she killed or transfromed all her male Priests).
I really would need to do a detail comprasion of other deities to see if there is an increase in gender bias. (This scroll should not just be about Drow deities, human ones were mentioned as well.)
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 01:23:16 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 02:53:32
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| I am pretty sure among the clergy of Sharess, females outnumbered males by a ridiculous proportion. However, the picture of the Sharessan Specialty Priest was a (rather attractive) male. :) So, take that as you will. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 06:50:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
So, like I said, WOTC can't even keep their rules straight in the same sourcebook because according to that sourcebooks chart, she shouldn't have rangers.
Ah well. I'll go with the 2e lore, which did allow her to have rangers.
However, none of this changes that fact that those rangers would still be female only.
For the most part have to agree with you.
Though I do allow any deity to have Rangers though, mainly because other than "Rogue" classes, the Ranger is the closest thing to a "Cleaner" that any of the gods can get.
Just more "urban" deities should have rangers that use the Urban Ranger variant in Unearthed Arcana. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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w2b
Acolyte
Italy
30 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 21:45:00
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i would like to say that i'm quite sure in 3.5 eilistraee can have male clerics. i can't give you references or anything, but nowhere i know it is stated that isn't a possibility. sword dancers are limited to females, yes, but clerics are not. of course if in 2nd ed eilistraee's clerics aren't allowed that's another matter... there are many discrepancies between the editions... we all know. choose what you like the best.
also, nowhere i've seen stated that in order to be a ranger your patron deity must be one of the realmsian nature deities, so i would say eilistraee indeed can have rangers. paladins do seem to be outside her reach though, that's true. but that is it (i repeat: as far as i know). |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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w2b
Acolyte
Italy
30 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 18:06:34
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yes, so it would seem according to my limited sources. if there are other deities allowing paladins it must be a detail hiding in some book or pdf i don't have.
as for the original question of this thread, i can't recall any other deity who actively forbids a gender or another from their priesthood or even lay followers, but i might very well be wrong, and/or things might have changed since 2nd ed, of which, alas, i have very little knowledge. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 19:22:55
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All of this talk of single-gender clergies, made me wonder if there might be room for these feats.
Dude looks like a lady:
Pre:Male, must have been turned into a woman for a month
Benefit: The player may join female only groups and at well choose to be treated as a female.
She look-a-like a man
Pre:Female, must have been turned into a man for a month
Benefit: The player may join male only groups and at well choose to be treated as a male.
Just a little silly idea, which does have a historical base (With opposite gender faking being the other one. Like in Terry Pratchett's Monsterous Regiment (may have the title wrong)).
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Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 22 Oct 2006 : 13:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.
I don't know why they although it with Sune only. It seems a strange god to make the exception. |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 05:26:50
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In regards to Eilistraee's clerics, check out Ed's thread about ten days from now. Ed tells me that a definitive (and long, and highly detailed) reply to this one (which has generated over 20 questions on Ed's threads over the last 3 years, all of them thus far unanswered) is about ten replies "down the road."
love,
THO |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 06:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
In regards to Eilistraee's clerics, check out Ed's thread about ten days from now. Ed tells me that a definitive (and long, and highly detailed) reply to this one (which has generated over 20 questions on Ed's threads over the last 3 years, all of them thus far unanswered) is about ten replies "down the road."
love,
THO
"Promise , Promise , promise?" (two points for where that comes from)
It indeed will be good if ten questions can be answered in 10 days. *Smiles* I hope a few oters might be included as well with discusion of Eilistraee's followers. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 11:35:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
In regards to Eilistraee's clerics, check out Ed's thread about ten days from now. Ed tells me that a definitive (and long, and highly detailed) reply to this one (which has generated over 20 questions on Ed's threads over the last 3 years, all of them thus far unanswered) is about ten replies "down the road."
love,
THO
"Promise , Promise , promise?" (two points for where that comes from)
Class 2 B's bus-trip to the Thor Heyerdal museum in Oslo 2002. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 11:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.
I don't know why they although it with Sune only. It seems a strange god to make the exception.
Actually, if you read her dogma it's fairly logical (to me at least). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 13:06:05
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I have always seen it as fitting that Sune had paladins among her servants, although I always envisioned them as something more like the Gallant from the Bards Handbook.
And Kajehase, OK, you got me curious, what are you talking about? |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 13:53:04
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| The bits about protecting and preserving beauty. I'd give you a full quote, but since my own computer have been messed up for some time I haven't got access to my books when I'm online. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 13:56:03
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IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 14:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.
I don't know why they although it with Sune only. It seems a strange god to make the exception.
Actually, if you read her dogma it's fairly logical (to me at least).
then she should be NG |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 15:59:50
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Well as Sune and her portfolio of love is chaotic and unpredictable by nature, chaotic seems to be the right alignment to me.
And Kaje, I meant the Promise, promise, promise answer |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 17:18:29
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin
I've always felt the opposite -- that people focus too much on the lawful aspect. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 17:44:48
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I think one reason some Paladins are hated is because they say "It is the Law"
I do not see many Paladins helping old ladies across the street or reaching out to be good to the weak and needed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 18:09:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin
I've always felt the opposite -- that people focus too much on the lawful aspect.
I don't really think most anyone really "gets" a paladin...like the True Neutrality of a druid (pre-3E)
That is why the biggest reason I enjoyed the Pools novel series were the paladins, the old paladin mentor and the undead paladin...both paragons of paladinhood without the stigma of the "uber-paladin" mentality...which is what I think turns people off... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 18:15:00
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin
I've always felt the opposite -- that people focus too much on the lawful aspect.
I don't really think most anyone really "gets" a paladin...like the True Neutrality of a druid (pre-3E)
That is why the biggest reason I enjoyed the Pools novel series were the paladins, the old paladin mentor and the undead paladin...both paragons of paladinhood without the stigma of the "uber-paladin" mentality...which is what I think turns people off...
This is why I hesitate to allow paladins in my games when I DM. Most people play them as fanatics that must kill all evil after they find them on their "evil radar". It bothers me to much and so most of the time I think long and hard about a PC playing a paladin. Yes, some paladins are like that depending on their deities but in 10+ years of DMing, almost every PC paladin that I've seen as a DM or a player are like that. GAH! |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 18:25:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
This is why I hesitate to allow paladins in my games when I DM. Most people play them as fanatics that must kill all evil after they find them on their "evil radar". It bothers me to much and so most of the time I think long and hard about a PC playing a paladin. Yes, some paladins are like that depending on their deities but in 10+ years of DMing, almost every PC paladin that I've seen as a DM or a player are like that. GAH!
I'v only known a couple of people that have even wanted to play a paladin...and after that Dragon magizine (310 I think) with the other alignment-varients of paladins I'v had more requests for those than any LG paladin
heck, very few characters I'v ever seen even play LG alignment  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Oct 2006 : 19:30:32
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin
I've always felt the opposite -- that people focus too much on the lawful aspect.
I don't really think most anyone really "gets" a paladin...like the True Neutrality of a druid (pre-3E)
That is why the biggest reason I enjoyed the Pools novel series were the paladins, the old paladin mentor and the undead paladin...both paragons of paladinhood without the stigma of the "uber-paladin" mentality...which is what I think turns people off...
Well, as I've said before, some people just don't get the whole alignment gig. They either read it incorrectly (like CN, or any evil alignment), or they stick with a stereotype. I don't feel it's a fault of the system (as some do); it's a fault of the players.
I've never played a paladin, but it's because of my aversion to playing the religious-based characters, not because of the alignment. I've played a couple of LG characters, and neither one was "lawful stupid" or "awful good". |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2017 : 09:40:15
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Sorry for necro but best than creating another topic on the same subject !
Do all the gods on Faerun have fighting clerics in 3.5ed ? Or some gods have all their clerics not fighting at all (which ones) ?
Thanks |
Edited by - Titus le Chmakus on 29 Dec 2017 09:41:19 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2018 : 13:31:13
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Power of Faerun is a nice tome to ponder over questions such as these. Actual percentages of the amount of clerics vs other classes can be found in the old Faiths and Avatars tome series, under "The Church" headers. From most one can guesstimate the amount of acolytes vs actual fighting clerics active in the church.
Most large churches have lots of people affiliated to a place of worship and that wield no divine power but are responsible for a particular aspect of the daily life of that temple/cathedral. Think temple gardeners, guards, chefs, scullions and scullery maids, scribes, carpenters and others that perform the menial tasks of running a religious building. One would be wise to take in consideration that most large temples in Faerun perform a particular social function, becoming the center (of learning) of that activity for many more than their church members alone during the cities daily bustle.
Gods with portfolios that somehow align with temple activities have actual clerics busying these aforementioned jobs themselves; Oghmas priests are scribes in addition to fighting clerics, Sunites are expert gardeners, Gondites are craftsmen, Tempus and Helmite clerics are temple guards, Tyrrans are lawyers and judges, etc. Many faerunians would discover their faith while being an acolyte to the temple learning the particular skill that temple provides.
Temples with large amounts of active clerics and paladin orders probably need them to protect the economic and political positions they have acquired, be that from external threats like monstrous activity, theft, rival churches, war and espionage or internal dangers of wasteful management, heresy and hierarchic turmoil. Having a large and versatile strata of the religious organization as fighting clerics gives most temples the ability to respond to happenings around there area. Mounted paladin orders are known to greatly expand the reach of the Arm of the Church.
Lesser Gods or those who don't care much for organized religion and who merely require unattended shrines might not have a social support structure at all, and would need less protection and financing. They have no large groups of fighting clerics, but each cleric tends to be more in touch with the divine (and is a higher level spellcaster) because of the traveling lifestyle. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2382 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2018 : 06:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
One thing to remember about Lolth is she used to have male priests.
[...]
I have not seen any explaination of what happened to Lolth's priests.
They just never got any limelight (except Rai-guy Bondalek). Being rare and ever the second class.
Lolth's priestesses distrust them (more than usual, that is) and consider them "more expendable" underlings, while other drow dudes distrust them and see them as a sad joke (IIRC in one novel a drow actually used comparison to these fellows as a contemptuous joke). This adds up to having life expectancy dubious even by the drow standards. It's just not a good career choice. Which is why they always were rare.
Being a servant of Selvetarm (in the cities where it's allowed) is also second class, but a better deal. Because roles are well-defined, and they have a separate hierarchy with different duties. Less of "below the priestesses" and more of "above the warriors". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
Edited by - TBeholder on 11 Jan 2018 06:23:20 |
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Titus le Chmakus
Acolyte
45 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2018 : 10:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Power of Faerun is a nice tome to ponder over questions such as these. Actual percentages of the amount of clerics vs other classes can be found in the old Faiths and Avatars tome series, under "The Church" headers. From most one can guesstimate the amount of acolytes vs actual fighting clerics active in the church.
Most large churches have lots of people affiliated to a place of worship and that wield no divine power but are responsible for a particular aspect of the daily life of that temple/cathedral. Think temple gardeners, guards, chefs, scullions and scullery maids, scribes, carpenters and others that perform the menial tasks of running a religious building. One would be wise to take in consideration that most large temples in Faerun perform a particular social function, becoming the center (of learning) of that activity for many more than their church members alone during the cities daily bustle.
Gods with portfolios that somehow align with temple activities have actual clerics busying these aforementioned jobs themselves; Oghmas priests are scribes in addition to fighting clerics, Sunites are expert gardeners, Gondites are craftsmen, Tempus and Helmite clerics are temple guards, Tyrrans are lawyers and judges, etc. Many faerunians would discover their faith while being an acolyte to the temple learning the particular skill that temple provides.
Temples with large amounts of active clerics and paladin orders probably need them to protect the economic and political positions they have acquired, be that from external threats like monstrous activity, theft, rival churches, war and espionage or internal dangers of wasteful management, heresy and hierarchic turmoil. Having a large and versatile strata of the religious organization as fighting clerics gives most temples the ability to respond to happenings around there area. Mounted paladin orders are known to greatly expand the reach of the Arm of the Church.
Lesser Gods or those who don't care much for organized religion and who merely require unattended shrines might not have a social support structure at all, and would need less protection and financing. They have no large groups of fighting clerics, but each cleric tends to be more in touch with the divine (and is a higher level spellcaster) because of the traveling lifestyle.
Well it is not what I was asking in fact ! Thanks for your answer, but I was more asking if there are any gods in the Faerunian pantheon that NEVER have ANY fighting clerics ?
Or if all the gods have some clerics with martial abilities among their followers ? I mean not all the clerics would be warriors, but at least a part of them. |
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cpthero2
Great Reader
USA
2285 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2020 : 06:52:48
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Seeker Titus le Chmakus,
I suppose I need a little clarification here, apologies for being pedantic.
When you say "NEVER have ANY fighting clerics", do you mean fighting in an offensive manner, defensive, or both? I ask because what I feel matters the most is the dogma of the god. Followers of Eldath (of course clerics) are only suppose to fight in self-defense or for someone in their charge, for self-defense. That's it. However, if that is considered fighting, I do not belive you'll find any deity prohibits even self-defense.
Best regards,
quote:
Originally posted by Titus le Chmakus
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Power of Faerun is a nice tome to ponder over questions such as these. Actual percentages of the amount of clerics vs other classes can be found in the old Faiths and Avatars tome series, under "The Church" headers. From most one can guesstimate the amount of acolytes vs actual fighting clerics active in the church.
Most large churches have lots of people affiliated to a place of worship and that wield no divine power but are responsible for a particular aspect of the daily life of that temple/cathedral. Think temple gardeners, guards, chefs, scullions and scullery maids, scribes, carpenters and others that perform the menial tasks of running a religious building. One would be wise to take in consideration that most large temples in Faerun perform a particular social function, becoming the center (of learning) of that activity for many more than their church members alone during the cities daily bustle.
Gods with portfolios that somehow align with temple activities have actual clerics busying these aforementioned jobs themselves; Oghmas priests are scribes in addition to fighting clerics, Sunites are expert gardeners, Gondites are craftsmen, Tempus and Helmite clerics are temple guards, Tyrrans are lawyers and judges, etc. Many faerunians would discover their faith while being an acolyte to the temple learning the particular skill that temple provides.
Temples with large amounts of active clerics and paladin orders probably need them to protect the economic and political positions they have acquired, be that from external threats like monstrous activity, theft, rival churches, war and espionage or internal dangers of wasteful management, heresy and hierarchic turmoil. Having a large and versatile strata of the religious organization as fighting clerics gives most temples the ability to respond to happenings around there area. Mounted paladin orders are known to greatly expand the reach of the Arm of the Church.
Lesser Gods or those who don't care much for organized religion and who merely require unattended shrines might not have a social support structure at all, and would need less protection and financing. They have no large groups of fighting clerics, but each cleric tends to be more in touch with the divine (and is a higher level spellcaster) because of the traveling lifestyle.
Well it is not what I was asking in fact ! Thanks for your answer, but I was more asking if there are any gods in the Faerunian pantheon that NEVER have ANY fighting clerics ?
Or if all the gods have some clerics with martial abilities among their followers ? I mean not all the clerics would be warriors, but at least a part of them.
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Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring |
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Gods and their Clerics
