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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  23:48:26  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm it appears the rules were bent as a Ranger of Ghaunadaur (or another Drow deity) exists. Reason why I believe is Ghaunadaur is because he has (Caverns) apparently one way to becoming a ranger.

Edit: This was not quoted but a composit of some posts from the boards that should not be mentioned concerning Drow and Rangers. It was not a direct quote. It appears that there was a Drow Ranger of a "Drow Deity" in either novel or source book. There was another post about caverns as being a portforilo or domain that permitted a ranger of a "Drow Deity" to exist. Ghaunadaur is only "Drow Deity" listed with Caverns.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 00:56:15
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  00:15:59  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmm a little more 2nd
quote:
Sword dancers can multiclass as a sword dancer/fighter or as a sword dancer/ranger provided that their race is allowed to multiclass as a cleric/fighter or cleric/ranger, respectively. Half-elven sword dancers are allowed to multiclass as sword dancer/bards.


So 2nd might not have allowed a straigt Ranger, have not found that yet, clearly muticlassing as one was permitted (and Ranger did cast divine spells) *wink*

The Bard in 1st Edition was allowed to cast Divine spells as well.

Edit:

From 3rd
quote:
Eilistraee's clerics often multiclass as fighters, bards, rangers, or sword dancers (see Chapter 4).


Of course the one transition from 2nd to 3rd was Speciality Priests became a PrC.

I would expect these 3.X rangers of suficent level to cast Divine spells granted by the Dark Maiden.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 00:24:32
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  00:26:01  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
True enough of her specialty priests. Good enough for me. However, that would still make them female only then since her specialty priests were truely female only.

Chapter four of which book btw? You keep quoting some passages without saying which book you are quoting from. Like the NPC you mentioned above.

However, WOTC can't even keep their rules straight in the same sourcebook because F&P has that ranger patron list and then later in the same book it says that she does have rangers in the info about her prestige class. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 25 Sep 2006 00:30:39
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  00:42:38  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The chapter 4 guote came from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a F&P (3.X)

The first quote is from Demihuman Deities (2nd)

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 00:43:36
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  00:53:29  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, like I said, WOTC can't even keep their rules straight in the same sourcebook because according to that sourcebooks chart, she shouldn't have rangers.

Ah well. I'll go with the 2e lore, which did allow her to have rangers.

However, none of this changes that fact that those rangers would still be female only.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  01:21:56  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe she only permits multiclassed Rangers, logic does not apply to the realms.

Maybe in 2nd if one wanted to be a Ranger they needed to muticlass and be female. I will note that DD did not list Rangers as Clergy (Though Vhaeraun has listed as Clergy Thieves) *shrugs*

Internal consistancy has been a problem even in 2nd because of how much lore, expansions, etc. that came out. 3.X trying to convert older lore clearly runs the same risk. The F&P text is of course one thing that fueled the belief that gender restriction might have been listed.

Oh also as best I can tell Ghaunadaur has no gender bias , there again many of his followers have no gender. *wink*

Lolth clearly had some, which became more enforced in transition to 3.0 (she killed or transfromed all her male Priests).

I really would need to do a detail comprasion of other deities to see if there is an increase in gender bias. (This scroll should not just be about Drow deities, human ones were mentioned as well.)

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon

Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 01:23:16
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore

USA
1103 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  02:53:32  Show Profile  Visit GothicDan's Homepage  Send GothicDan an AOL message  Send GothicDan an ICQ Message  Click to see GothicDan's MSN Messenger address  Send GothicDan a Yahoo! Message Send GothicDan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am pretty sure among the clergy of Sharess, females outnumbered males by a ridiculous proportion. However, the picture of the Sharessan Specialty Priest was a (rather attractive) male. :) So, take that as you will.

Planescape Fanatic

"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  06:50:11  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

So, like I said, WOTC can't even keep their rules straight in the same sourcebook because according to that sourcebooks chart, she shouldn't have rangers.

Ah well. I'll go with the 2e lore, which did allow her to have rangers.

However, none of this changes that fact that those rangers would still be female only.



For the most part have to agree with you.

Though I do allow any deity to have Rangers though, mainly because other than "Rogue" classes, the Ranger is the closest thing to a "Cleaner" that any of the gods can get.

Just more "urban" deities should have rangers that use the Urban Ranger variant in Unearthed Arcana.

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w2b
Seeker

Italy
30 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  21:45:00  Show Profile  Visit w2b's Homepage Send w2b a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i would like to say that i'm quite sure in 3.5 eilistraee can have male clerics. i can't give you references or anything, but nowhere i know it is stated that isn't a possibility. sword dancers are limited to females, yes, but clerics are not. of course if in 2nd ed eilistraee's clerics aren't allowed that's another matter... there are many discrepancies between the editions... we all know. choose what you like the best.

also, nowhere i've seen stated that in order to be a ranger your patron deity must be one of the realmsian nature deities, so i would say eilistraee indeed can have rangers. paladins do seem to be outside her reach though, that's true. but that is it (i repeat: as far as i know).
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2006 :  04:29:31  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.

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w2b
Seeker

Italy
30 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2006 :  18:06:34  Show Profile  Visit w2b's Homepage Send w2b a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes, so it would seem according to my limited sources. if there are other deities allowing paladins it must be a detail hiding in some book or pdf i don't have.

as for the original question of this thread, i can't recall any other deity who actively forbids a gender or another from their priesthood or even lay followers, but i might very well be wrong, and/or things might have changed since 2nd ed, of which, alas, i have very little knowledge.
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe

Canada
592 Posts

Posted - 26 Sep 2006 :  19:22:55  Show Profile  Click to see Foxhelm's MSN Messenger address  Send Foxhelm a Yahoo! Message Send Foxhelm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
All of this talk of single-gender clergies, made me wonder if there might be room for these feats.

Dude looks like a lady:
Pre:Male, must have been turned into a woman for a month
Benefit: The player may join female only groups and at well choose to be treated as a female.

She look-a-like a man
Pre:Female, must have been turned into a man for a month
Benefit: The player may join male only groups and at well choose to be treated as a male.

Just a little silly idea, which does have a historical base (With opposite gender faking being the other one. Like in Terry Pratchett's Monsterous Regiment (may have the title wrong)).


Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems!
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe

USA
947 Posts

Posted - 22 Oct 2006 :  13:20:05  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.



I don't know why they although it with Sune only. It seems a strange god to make the exception.



When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight.
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5043 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  05:26:50  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In regards to Eilistraee's clerics, check out Ed's thread about ten days from now. Ed tells me that a definitive (and long, and highly detailed) reply to this one (which has generated over 20 questions on Ed's threads over the last 3 years, all of them thus far unanswered) is about ten replies "down the road."
love,
THO
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  06:12:20  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

In regards to Eilistraee's clerics, check out Ed's thread about ten days from now. Ed tells me that a definitive (and long, and highly detailed) reply to this one (which has generated over 20 questions on Ed's threads over the last 3 years, all of them thus far unanswered) is about ten replies "down the road."
love,
THO



"Promise , Promise , promise?" (two points for where that comes from)

It indeed will be good if ten questions can be answered in 10 days. *Smiles* I hope a few oters might be included as well with discusion of Eilistraee's followers.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  11:35:07  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One

In regards to Eilistraee's clerics, check out Ed's thread about ten days from now. Ed tells me that a definitive (and long, and highly detailed) reply to this one (which has generated over 20 questions on Ed's threads over the last 3 years, all of them thus far unanswered) is about ten replies "down the road."
love,
THO



"Promise , Promise , promise?" (two points for where that comes from)



Class 2 B's bus-trip to the Thor Heyerdal museum in Oslo 2002.

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  11:36:34  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale

quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.



I don't know why they although it with Sune only. It seems a strange god to make the exception.



Actually, if you read her dogma it's fairly logical (to me at least).

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  13:06:05  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I have always seen it as fitting that Sune had paladins among her servants, although I always envisioned them as something more like the Gallant from the Bards Handbook.

And Kajehase, OK, you got me curious, what are you talking about?
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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  13:53:04  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The bits about protecting and preserving beauty. I'd give you a full quote, but since my own computer have been messed up for some time I haven't got access to my books when I'm online.

There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  13:56:03  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe

USA
947 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  14:41:44  Show Profile  Visit MerrikCale's Homepage Send MerrikCale a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase

quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale

quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

I think Sune is the only deity with Paladins that isn't LG, NG, or LN.



I don't know why they although it with Sune only. It seems a strange god to make the exception.



Actually, if you read her dogma it's fairly logical (to me at least).



then she should be NG



When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight.
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Jorkens
Great Reader

Norway
2950 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  15:59:50  Show Profile Send Jorkens a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well as Sune and her portfolio of love is chaotic and unpredictable by nature, chaotic seems to be the right alignment to me.

And Kaje, I meant the Promise, promise, promise answer
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30624 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  17:18:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin



I've always felt the opposite -- that people focus too much on the lawful aspect.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  17:44:48  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think one reason some Paladins are hated is because they say "It is the Law"

I do not see many Paladins helping old ladies across the street or reaching out to be good to the weak and needed.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2006 :  18:09:03  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

IMO I think people often concentrate a little too much on the "good" aspect of a paladin more than the "law" aspect of the paladin



I've always felt the opposite -- that people focus too much on the lawful aspect.



I don't really think most anyone really "gets" a paladin...like the True Neutrality of a druid (pre-3E)

That is why the biggest reason I enjoyed the Pools novel series were the paladins, the old paladin mentor and the undead paladin...both paragons of paladinhood without the stigma of the "uber-paladin" mentality...which is what I think turns people off...

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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