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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 07:24:10
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Does it seem like most gods in FR seems to prefer their clerics to be the same gender as them?
Cases of examples are
Sune = Female
Lolth = Female
Bane = Male
Cyric = Male
Tempus = Male
Deneir = Male
Mod Edit: Moved to the correct shelf. 
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Sep 2006 07:44:39
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 09:46:51
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Lolth is a special case, but the others... I don't think it really matters:
Sune, remember Adon?
Bane, Walinda of Bane.
There is no other gender preference as far as I can see... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 10:00:45
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I seem to recall Elistraee favours Females to
the Walinda of Bane story is the one where idea that Bane prefers males comes from (Ie the Banelichs action at the end of Finders bane) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 10:31:00
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| I think the female priest preference of Eilistraee's is more to accomodate the matriarchal drow society and not a "gender" preference. I can very well see male drow priests of Eilistraee |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 14:20:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I think the female priest preference of Eilistraee's is more to accomodate the matriarchal drow society and not a "gender" preference. I can very well see male drow priests of Eilistraee
I think there was already a thread about this 
and I think the "human" gods (i.e. Realms gods) are alot less picky about gender than the demi-uman gods...though some special clerical orders do have gender restrictions |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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w2b
Acolyte
Italy
30 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 17:29:23
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i think it's less like 'the gods prefer people of their same gender' as much as 'people prefer gods that fit their world view'...
i mean sune is all about beauty and love and cute lil' bunnies and tempus is a god of war, war, war... it is after all part of human nature that women and men think and behave differently, so i guess that's why sune appeals more to women and tempus to men. of course there are lots of great warrior women in the realms- first of all tempus' ally, red knight. but when the moon goddess is tied to fertility, moon-cycles and that kind of thing... well, unless you happen to be a werewolf the appeal to women is clear.
lolth of course hates men and denies the power to any male drow (and after the fate corellon inflicted her i guess i understand her). luthic wouldn't be worshipped by any male orc in his right mind- and if she were, she'd probably refuse him.
but lots of rangers of all genders worship mielikki. same with diviners and savras, necromancers and velsharoon, wizards and sorcerers with mystra and azuth, merchants and waukeen... narona of high forest is a female werewolf and worships malar... scyllua darkhope worships bane, adon worshipped sune as mace pointed out, and elminster, well, we all know where his loyalties lie.
it's just that women and men are biologically and often culturally (read- calimshan, uthgardt, mulhorand...) different- so they gravitate towards different interests- and of course different gods/goddesses. imho, of course. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2006 : 18:20:25
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One thing to remember about Lolth is she used to have male priests. I do not believe it is a matter of deities choice but rather the understanding of the scribes that describe the knowledge of religion.
I have not seen any explaination of what happened to Lolth's priests. They just do not exist anymore. Also as pointed out not all deities have gender restrictions. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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w2b
Acolyte
Italy
30 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2006 : 18:54:00
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| lolth used to have male priests? O__O honest? when? |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2006 : 19:06:42
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I am pretty sure it says in the 2E Drow of the Underdark book that there are male preists of Lolth but they never reall get past Lv 6 in the hierichy (sp?) of the Church of Lolth (never trusted by the females)
As Lolth is also a goddess of choas it is not illogical to think there could be male priests of Lolth hiding in the Underdark like hermits with high levels of priest
And you have to remember, a god's/goddess's strength is dependent on the number of believers and worshippers...it makes no sense for a god/goddess to exclude one gender from serving in worship...considering for most races the gender ratio is, give-or-take, around 50/50 |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 22 Sep 2006 19:07:05 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2006 : 19:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by w2b
lolth used to have male priests? O__O honest? when?
Actually they existed in 1st and 2nd.
1st listed as lore of there not being known a male higher then Level 4 , which left open posibility there might have been higher level males just not known about.
2nd offers "there are male priests of Lolth (4%), but the Spider Queen very rarely allows them to rise above 7th level of experience."
which still leaves open a rare male being higher then 7
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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w2b
Acolyte
Italy
30 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 10:31:43
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this is very interesting!
imagine a male priest of lolth... after all these years not even one has ever appeared in any accessory or novel to my (very limited!!) knowledge.
i wonder what would have lolth decide to make one. i bet she'd do it once in a while, just for the sake of looking at her priestesses' face! she's so crazy... ^___^
but after the wotsq events... maybe... with the males somehow getting just a little more emancipated... it could happen slightly more frequently... who knows?... |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 10:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I am pretty sure it says in the 2E Drow of the Underdark book that there are male preists of Lolth but they never reall get past Lv 6 in the hierichy (sp?) of the Church of Lolth (never trusted by the females)
As Lolth is also a goddess of choas it is not illogical to think there could be male priests of Lolth hiding in the Underdark like hermits with high levels of priest
And you have to remember, a god's/goddess's strength is dependent on the number of believers and worshippers...it makes no sense for a god/goddess to exclude one gender from serving in worship...considering for most races the gender ratio is, give-or-take, around 50/50
Lolth (in 3E) is perfectly content with having males as Lay Followers (which still gives you power), she just doesn't want them to wield Clerical Power is all. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 10:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by w2b
this is very interesting!
imagine a male priest of lolth... after all these years not even one has ever appeared in any accessory or novel to my (very limited!!) knowledge.
i wonder what would have lolth decide to make one. i bet she'd do it once in a while, just for the sake of looking at her priestesses' face! she's so crazy... ^___^
but after the wotsq events... maybe... with the males somehow getting just a little more emancipated... it could happen slightly more frequently... who knows?...
I think RAS did introduce one in the Drizzt Novels as part of Jaraxle's band. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 11:09:05
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Well male priest were rare (I wonder what Lolth did to them in 3rd) so they might not appear in any product as a named NPC. It appears more likely that DMs generated them rarely for individual games.
As to overall topic, I tend to agree thatthere is not much gender bias, however if such exists it was increased in 3.X. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 11:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think RAS did introduce one in the Drizzt Novels as part of Jaraxle's band.
Err that might be a Priest of Vhaeraun, but I am not sure. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 17:00:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
I think RAS did introduce one in the Drizzt Novels as part of Jaraxle's band.
Err that might be a Priest of Vhaeraun, but I am not sure.
No, definitely a priest of Lolth. He even summoned a yochlol at one point. Theoretically, I suppose he could have been a Masked Traitor, but there wasn't any canonical indication of such. |
Edited by - TobyKikami on 23 Sep 2006 17:01:16 |
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe
USA
162 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 19:34:50
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So would she abandon them to lay worshipper status in the case of a belt of opposite gender?
EvilKnight |
Danali Index |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 20:18:49
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Belt of opposite gender is either a drawback or a curse and the effects can be negated, gender change is not premerment.
As for Lolth she is Chaotic so perhaps sometimes she will not care or even notice gender change, other times she indeed might punish the foolish Cleric for changing gender. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 23:28:17
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quote:
Originally posted by EvilKnight
So would she abandon them to lay worshipper status in the case of a belt of opposite gender?
EvilKnight
Hell, she abandons her female worshippers at the drop of a hat -- why should this belt situation be any different? |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 07:33:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by EvilKnight
So would she abandon them to lay worshipper status in the case of a belt of opposite gender?
EvilKnight
Hell, she abandons her female worshippers at the drop of a hat -- why should this belt situation be any different?
Ah the Fickle Whims of a Woman  |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Bladedancer
Learned Scribe
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 13:02:24
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| Rai-Guy was the drow cleric/wizard of Lolth from Ched Nasad. He was detailed in R.A Salvatore's Sileint Blade novel. |
Solarr Bladedancer
Mercenary For Hire
Master of the Ginsu Knives
They Slice They Dice They Will Cut through A Tin Can |
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 22:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I think the female priest preference of Eilistraee's is more to accomodate the matriarchal drow society and not a "gender" preference. I can very well see male drow priests of Eilistraee
I think there was already a thread about this
and I think the "human" gods (i.e. Realms gods) are alot less picky about gender than the demi-uman gods...though some special clerical orders do have gender restrictions
Doesn't Eilistraee only allow female clerics/divine spellcasters? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 22:09:58
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Actually I believe Eilstraee permits Rangers of any gender, she is precluded from having Paladins (though another CG deity has them).
As for male Clerics of the Dark Maiden as already indicated there have been a few scrolls about this already some even got locked.
Clearly in 2nd Eilistraee only permitted female Clerics, opinion is divided as to if 3.X caused a change. There has been no official answer to this issue. Which is why some of the threads got looked, various scribes arguing their opinion with very little source to prove there was a change from 2nd. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 22:31:48
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Since rangers are still divine casters then they would be female only since she allows only female divine casters. However, she didn't allow rangers as members of her divine church in the old lore. So, does she in 3/3.5e?
I know she's not on the nature deity list in Faiths & Pantheons, which is the list druids and rangers are supposed to use to choose a patron. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Sep 2006 22:42:02 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 23:00:50
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2nd: CLERGY: Clerics, crusaders, mystics, specialty priests
Found on the web for 3X, so subject to verification. quote:
List of nature deities is in the FRCS as well, page 23 under the Druid entry. Rangers need not select from this list, but most do, and all Druids must.
And yes, all divine casters must be within 1 step of thier Patron's alignment according to the 3/3.5e rules. This includes Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins (plus divine casting non-core classes), though Rangers don't need to select one until they gain access to spells at level 4.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 23:17:36
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She's not on that list either. :) So, I don't believe that she has rangers since she didn't in the past and she doesn't in current lore according to the 2 sourcebooks that have lists of patron deities.
As I said above, F&P's list is specifically listed as a patron deity list for rangers and druids and that sourcebook came out after the FRCS. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Sep 2006 23:21:31 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2006 : 23:48:26
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Hmm it appears the rules were bent as a Ranger of Ghaunadaur (or another Drow deity) exists. Reason why I believe is Ghaunadaur is because he has (Caverns) apparently one way to becoming a ranger.
Edit: This was not quoted but a composit of some posts from the boards that should not be mentioned concerning Drow and Rangers. It was not a direct quote. It appears that there was a Drow Ranger of a "Drow Deity" in either novel or source book. There was another post about caverns as being a portforilo or domain that permitted a ranger of a "Drow Deity" to exist. Ghaunadaur is only "Drow Deity" listed with Caverns. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 00:56:15 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 00:15:59
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Hmm a little more 2nd quote:
Sword dancers can multiclass as a sword dancer/fighter or as a sword dancer/ranger provided that their race is allowed to multiclass as a cleric/fighter or cleric/ranger, respectively. Half-elven sword dancers are allowed to multiclass as sword dancer/bards.
So 2nd might not have allowed a straigt Ranger, have not found that yet, clearly muticlassing as one was permitted (and Ranger did cast divine spells) *wink*
The Bard in 1st Edition was allowed to cast Divine spells as well.
Edit:
From 3rd quote:
Eilistraee's clerics often multiclass as fighters, bards, rangers, or sword dancers (see Chapter 4).
Of course the one transition from 2nd to 3rd was Speciality Priests became a PrC.
I would expect these 3.X rangers of suficent level to cast Divine spells granted by the Dark Maiden. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 00:24:32 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 00:26:01
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True enough of her specialty priests. Good enough for me. However, that would still make them female only then since her specialty priests were truely female only.
Chapter four of which book btw? You keep quoting some passages without saying which book you are quoting from. Like the NPC you mentioned above.
However, WOTC can't even keep their rules straight in the same sourcebook because F&P has that ranger patron list and then later in the same book it says that she does have rangers in the info about her prestige class. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 Sep 2006 00:30:39 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 00:42:38
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The chapter 4 guote came from http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20020503a F&P (3.X)
The first quote is from Demihuman Deities (2nd) |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Sep 2006 00:43:36 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2006 : 00:53:29
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So, like I said, WOTC can't even keep their rules straight in the same sourcebook because according to that sourcebooks chart, she shouldn't have rangers.
Ah well. I'll go with the 2e lore, which did allow her to have rangers.
However, none of this changes that fact that those rangers would still be female only. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gods and their Clerics
