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Chataro
Learned Scribe

Singapore
114 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  07:24:10  Show Profile  Visit Chataro's Homepage  Click to see Chataro's MSN Messenger address Send Chataro a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Does it seem like most gods in FR seems to prefer their clerics to be the same gender as them?

Cases of examples are

Sune = Female
Lolth = Female
Bane = Male
Cyric = Male
Tempus = Male
Deneir = Male

Mod Edit: Moved to the correct shelf.

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Sep 2006 07:44:39

Mace Hammerhand
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Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  09:46:51  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Lolth is a special case, but the others... I don't think it really matters:

Sune, remember Adon?
Bane, Walinda of Bane.

There is no other gender preference as far as I can see...

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Dargoth
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Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  10:00:45  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I seem to recall Elistraee favours Females to

the Walinda of Bane story is the one where idea that Bane prefers males comes from (Ie the Banelichs action at the end of Finders bane)

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Mace Hammerhand
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Germany
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Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  10:31:00  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the female priest preference of Eilistraee's is more to accomodate the matriarchal drow society and not a "gender" preference. I can very well see male drow priests of Eilistraee

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  14:20:35  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

I think the female priest preference of Eilistraee's is more to accomodate the matriarchal drow society and not a "gender" preference. I can very well see male drow priests of Eilistraee



I think there was already a thread about this

and I think the "human" gods (i.e. Realms gods) are alot less picky about gender than the demi-uman gods...though some special clerical orders do have gender restrictions

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
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- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand
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w2b
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Italy
30 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  17:29:23  Show Profile  Visit w2b's Homepage Send w2b a Private Message  Reply with Quote
i think it's less like 'the gods prefer people of their same gender' as much as 'people prefer gods that fit their world view'...

i mean sune is all about beauty and love and cute lil' bunnies and tempus is a god of war, war, war... it is after all part of human nature that women and men think and behave differently, so i guess that's why sune appeals more to women and tempus to men. of course there are lots of great warrior women in the realms- first of all tempus' ally, red knight. but when the moon goddess is tied to fertility, moon-cycles and that kind of thing... well, unless you happen to be a werewolf the appeal to women is clear.

lolth of course hates men and denies the power to any male drow (and after the fate corellon inflicted her i guess i understand her). luthic wouldn't be worshipped by any male orc in his right mind- and if she were, she'd probably refuse him.

but lots of rangers of all genders worship mielikki. same with diviners and savras, necromancers and velsharoon, wizards and sorcerers with mystra and azuth, merchants and waukeen... narona of high forest is a female werewolf and worships malar... scyllua darkhope worships bane, adon worshipped sune as mace pointed out, and elminster, well, we all know where his loyalties lie.

it's just that women and men are biologically and often culturally (read- calimshan, uthgardt, mulhorand...) different- so they gravitate towards different interests- and of course different gods/goddesses. imho, of course.
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Kentinal
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4312 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  18:20:25  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
One thing to remember about Lolth is she used to have male priests. I do not believe it is a matter of deities choice but rather the understanding of the scribes that describe the knowledge of religion.

I have not seen any explaination of what happened to Lolth's priests. They just do not exist anymore. Also as pointed out not all deities have gender restrictions.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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w2b
Seeker

Italy
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Posted - 22 Sep 2006 :  18:54:00  Show Profile  Visit w2b's Homepage Send w2b a Private Message  Reply with Quote
lolth used to have male priests? O__O honest? when?
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe

Canada
956 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2006 :  19:06:42  Show Profile  Visit Kalin Agrivar's Homepage  Click to see Kalin Agrivar's MSN Messenger address Send Kalin Agrivar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am pretty sure it says in the 2E Drow of the Underdark book that there are male preists of Lolth but they never reall get past Lv 6 in the hierichy (sp?) of the Church of Lolth (never trusted by the females)

As Lolth is also a goddess of choas it is not illogical to think there could be male priests of Lolth hiding in the Underdark like hermits with high levels of priest

And you have to remember, a god's/goddess's strength is dependent on the number of believers and worshippers...it makes no sense for a god/goddess to exclude one gender from serving in worship...considering for most races the gender ratio is, give-or-take, around 50/50

Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar

- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand

Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 22 Sep 2006 19:07:05
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2006 :  19:30:53  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by w2b

lolth used to have male priests? O__O honest? when?



Actually they existed in 1st and 2nd.

1st listed as lore of there not being known a male higher then Level 4 , which left open posibility there might have been higher level males just not known about.

2nd offers "there are male priests of Lolth (4%), but the Spider Queen very rarely allows them to rise above 7th level of experience."
which still leaves open a rare male being higher then 7


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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w2b
Seeker

Italy
30 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  10:31:43  Show Profile  Visit w2b's Homepage Send w2b a Private Message  Reply with Quote
this is very interesting!

imagine a male priest of lolth... after all these years not even one has ever appeared in any accessory or novel to my (very limited!!) knowledge.

i wonder what would have lolth decide to make one. i bet she'd do it once in a while, just for the sake of looking at her priestesses' face! she's so crazy... ^___^

but after the wotsq events... maybe... with the males somehow getting just a little more emancipated... it could happen slightly more frequently... who knows?...
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  10:57:58  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

I am pretty sure it says in the 2E Drow of the Underdark book that there are male preists of Lolth but they never reall get past Lv 6 in the hierichy (sp?) of the Church of Lolth (never trusted by the females)

As Lolth is also a goddess of choas it is not illogical to think there could be male priests of Lolth hiding in the Underdark like hermits with high levels of priest

And you have to remember, a god's/goddess's strength is dependent on the number of believers and worshippers...it makes no sense for a god/goddess to exclude one gender from serving in worship...considering for most races the gender ratio is, give-or-take, around 50/50



Lolth (in 3E) is perfectly content with having males as Lay Followers (which still gives you power), she just doesn't want them to wield Clerical Power is all.

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  10:59:11  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by w2b

this is very interesting!

imagine a male priest of lolth... after all these years not even one has ever appeared in any accessory or novel to my (very limited!!) knowledge.

i wonder what would have lolth decide to make one. i bet she'd do it once in a while, just for the sake of looking at her priestesses' face! she's so crazy... ^___^

but after the wotsq events... maybe... with the males somehow getting just a little more emancipated... it could happen slightly more frequently... who knows?...



I think RAS did introduce one in the Drizzt Novels as part of Jaraxle's band.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  11:09:05  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well male priest were rare (I wonder what Lolth did to them in 3rd) so they might not appear in any product as a named NPC. It appears more likely that DMs generated them rarely for individual games.

As to overall topic, I tend to agree thatthere is not much gender bias, however if such exists it was increased in 3.X.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  11:13:20  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco



I think RAS did introduce one in the Drizzt Novels as part of Jaraxle's band.



Err that might be a Priest of Vhaeraun, but I am not sure.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe

USA
113 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  17:00:33  Show Profile  Visit TobyKikami's Homepage Send TobyKikami a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by warlockco



I think RAS did introduce one in the Drizzt Novels as part of Jaraxle's band.



Err that might be a Priest of Vhaeraun, but I am not sure.


No, definitely a priest of Lolth. He even summoned a yochlol at one point. Theoretically, I suppose he could have been a Masked Traitor, but there wasn't any canonical indication of such.

Edited by - TobyKikami on 23 Sep 2006 17:01:16
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EvilKnight
Learned Scribe

USA
162 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  19:34:50  Show Profile  Visit EvilKnight's Homepage Send EvilKnight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So would she abandon them to lay worshipper status in the case of a belt of opposite gender?

EvilKnight

Danali Index
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  20:18:49  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Belt of opposite gender is either a drawback or a curse and the effects can be negated, gender change is not premerment.

As for Lolth she is Chaotic so perhaps sometimes she will not care or even notice gender change, other times she indeed might punish the foolish Cleric for changing gender. *wink*

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30624 Posts

Posted - 23 Sep 2006 :  23:28:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by EvilKnight

So would she abandon them to lay worshipper status in the case of a belt of opposite gender?

EvilKnight



Hell, she abandons her female worshippers at the drop of a hat -- why should this belt situation be any different?

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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  07:33:34  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by EvilKnight

So would she abandon them to lay worshipper status in the case of a belt of opposite gender?

EvilKnight



Hell, she abandons her female worshippers at the drop of a hat -- why should this belt situation be any different?



Ah the Fickle Whims of a Woman

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Bladedancer
Learned Scribe

USA
149 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  13:02:24  Show Profile  Visit Bladedancer's Homepage Send Bladedancer a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Rai-Guy was the drow cleric/wizard of Lolth from Ched Nasad. He was detailed in R.A Salvatore's Sileint Blade novel.

Solarr Bladedancer
Mercenary For Hire
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Aquanova
Seeker

USA
63 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  22:00:49  Show Profile  Visit Aquanova's Homepage Send Aquanova a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

I think the female priest preference of Eilistraee's is more to accomodate the matriarchal drow society and not a "gender" preference. I can very well see male drow priests of Eilistraee



I think there was already a thread about this

and I think the "human" gods (i.e. Realms gods) are alot less picky about gender than the demi-uman gods...though some special clerical orders do have gender restrictions


Doesn't Eilistraee only allow female clerics/divine spellcasters?
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4312 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  22:09:58  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually I believe Eilstraee permits Rangers of any gender, she is precluded from having Paladins (though another CG deity has them).

As for male Clerics of the Dark Maiden as already indicated there have been a few scrolls about this already some even got locked.

Clearly in 2nd Eilistraee only permitted female Clerics, opinion is divided as to if 3.X caused a change. There has been no official answer to this issue. Which is why some of the threads got looked, various scribes arguing their opinion with very little source to prove there was a change from 2nd.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  22:31:48  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since rangers are still divine casters then they would be female only since she allows only female divine casters. However, she didn't allow rangers as members of her divine church in the old lore. So, does she in 3/3.5e?

I know she's not on the nature deity list in Faiths & Pantheons, which is the list druids and rangers are supposed to use to choose a patron.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Edited by - Kuje on 24 Sep 2006 22:42:02
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Kentinal
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4312 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  23:00:50  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2nd: CLERGY: Clerics, crusaders, mystics, specialty priests

Found on the web for 3X, so subject to verification.
quote:
List of nature deities is in the FRCS as well, page 23 under the Druid entry. Rangers need not select from this list, but most do, and all Druids must.

And yes, all divine casters must be within 1 step of thier Patron's alignment according to the 3/3.5e rules. This includes Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins (plus divine casting non-core classes), though Rangers don't need to select one until they gain access to spells at level 4.



"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  23:17:36  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
She's not on that list either. :) So, I don't believe that she has rangers since she didn't in the past and she doesn't in current lore according to the 2 sourcebooks that have lists of patron deities.

As I said above, F&P's list is specifically listed as a patron deity list for rangers and druids and that sourcebook came out after the FRCS.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Edited by - Kuje on 24 Sep 2006 23:21:31
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