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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Sep 2006 : 15:22:30
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Warning the following contains spoils on events covered in Steven Schends novel Blackstaff
Over the last couple of days Ive been musing about what changes Blackstaffs death is going to cause in Waterdeep and else where.
Blackstaffs death left the following position vacant
The Lords of Waterdeep are down one
The Archmage of Blackstaff Academy (Especially as Laerals leaving Waterdeep and will presumably be bound for Shadowdale or Evermeet)
The leadership of the Moonstars
Mystra's down one chosen
Now Blackstaff did declare Tsarra to be his heir before he died but I cant see her inheriting all the positions Blackstaff held.
I doubt she'll inherit Blackstaffs Lord of Waterdeep role. I think the other Lords will replace him with someone else probably a powerful Arcane spell caster (If it was me Id give the Helm to Telbran Nelarn hes one of the most powerful spellcaster in waterdeep, hes lived for a very long time, he has first hand knowledge of Netheril which given Shades return and the fact Waterdeep is built above a Netherese ruins would make him a good choice)
Archmage of Blackstaff Academy this role is probably the one Tsarra most likely to keep (and is like the one shes most comfortable with)and with Laeral leaving shes unlikely to face any challeneges for the job and she seemed to enjoy teaching in the novel
Leader of the Moonstars: Blackstaff recruited a number of evil people into the Moonstars and I dont think that Tsarra's "Morally flexible like Blackstaff especially on the subject of undead. I think after word gets out that Blackstaffs dead then the Moonstars will likely implode with those Moonstars who where formerly Harpers returning to the fold, the Undead and evil Moonstars either being hunted down and destroyed or at best Tsarra will ignore them and have nothing further to do with them. Those Moonstars who live locally in Waterdeep may join Blackstaff academy (If there Arcane spell casters) or sign up with some other group like the Red Sashes, the Grey hands or even the Confluence
Mystras down one chosen: This is probably the position that has the least urgency for filling as it will take a great deal of time for Mystra to mold a replacement to her liking
I think it would be an amusing twist if Savengriff/Prespur/Grimwald had come across Khelban the Younger and brought him back to Waterdeep now that his identity is no longer being used!
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 18 Sep 2006 15:36:35
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Sep 2006 : 15:25:51
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| can we put spoiler in the title of this thread too. I read past the first line and went *^&*%^&^$%&$. I am almost done with the book. I suspected some of this though. my own fault, but it might help others not do what I just did |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 07:29:31
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In no particular order:
The impression I got was that the Moonstars primary function was to help Blackstaff towards his ultimate goal. With that accomplished, I’d imagine they’d disband, with surviving members migrating back to the Harpers, going their own way or perhaps secretly working to ‘prop up’ Tsarra, to some degree.
It seemed to me like Blackstaff used up the power Mystra was storing in him...I wonder if she’s not weaker now? If yes, I wonder how long until she recoups that power and even then if she’ll be forced to ‘bequeath’ it unto another mortal.
In the short term I think Tsarra will hold all the offices and titles Blackstaff did. Long term....? I dunno.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 11:14:34
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| I think Khelben still has a lot of plans that he wants the Moonstars to carry out, even without his direct leadership. I'd imagine that Tsarra knows all of the things that Khelben felt "must" be done, and "must" be done without the Harper's usual mindset. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 11:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
The impression I got was that the Moonstars primary function was to help Blackstaff towards his ultimate goal. With that accomplished, I’d imagine they’d disband, with surviving members migrating back to the Harpers, going their own way or perhaps secretly working to ‘prop up’ Tsarra, to some degree.
I'm not inclined to think this was his ultimate goal. It doesn't seem to match the prophecy from Amagal's Tome...
From page 25 of Cloak & Dagger:
quote:
At least one sagely member identified an ancient prophecy in Amagal's Tome, an ancient elven text of early Cormanthor, as noting that the Tel'Teukiira "will come hidden and in many guises and faces. They dwell in shadow and speak in omens, yet they shall bring about waking dreams and save us from the Three Threats Who Wait In Darkness, the Prefects, and ourselves." None of the Tel'Teukiira can say what all this means, though many suspect Khelben knows and simply does not say.
So I'm inclined to think this was merely a part of the overall plan. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Sep 2006 11:20:48 |
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Bladedancer
Learned Scribe
USA
149 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 12:57:50
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| Hmm maybe Khelben the Younger will make his return from Oerth and resume his life on Toril. |
Solarr Bladedancer
Mercenary For Hire
Master of the Ginsu Knives
They Slice They Dice They Will Cut through A Tin Can |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 14:09:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Bladedancer
Hmm maybe Khelben the Younger will make his return from Oerth and resume his life on Toril.
that would make sense when we were in the 2E environment...but as now the 3E Realms is practically seperate from the rest of the "D&D multiverse" it would be more difficult to explain why Khelben the Younger left and then returned and could possibly conflict with new canon  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 14:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Bladedancer
Hmm maybe Khelben the Younger will make his return from Oerth and resume his life on Toril.
that would make sense when we were in the 2E environment...but as now the 3E Realms is practically seperate from the rest of the "D&D multiverse" it would be more difficult to explain why Khelben the Younger left and then returned and could possibly conflict with new canon
Not to badly if they ignore the Greyhawk reference and simply say that he was off exploring the Planes (Piergions daughters doing the same thing) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 15:04:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Not to badly if they ignore the Greyhawk reference and simply say that he was off exploring the Planes (Piergions daughters doing the same thing)
thats true enough...good old ret-con canon change   |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2006 : 03:28:07
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quote:
Originally posted by woolyvar
I'm not inclined to think this was his ultimate goal. It doesn't seem to match the prophecy from Amagal's Tome...
Good point! That prophecy sure gets me excited though. Seems like lots of room there for future novels and for DMs to get creative.
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
that would make sense when we were in the 2E environment...but as now the 3E Realms is practically seperate from the rest of the "D&D multiverse" it would be more difficult to explain why Khelben the Younger left and then returned and could possibly conflict with new canon
I don't see how it'd be any more or less difficult than explaining that someone was on some other plane. The Greyhawk reference should stay, IMO, because it's still quote possible to get to there from the Realms.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1707 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2006 : 17:03:55
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I don't want to disrupt or step on the discussion here, but Wooly's closer to right than he knows. The plots in Blackstaff have ties to but do not fulfill the prophecy. In fact, there's tons of hints and buried links to Moonstar lore all through the book, but I've now said too much.
Oh, and Laeral's not going off anywhere; I thought I left it clear that she's staying in Rhymanthiin, at least until the twins are born.
Steven |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2006 : 17:06:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
The plots in Blackstaff have ties to but do not fulfill the prophecy. In fact, there's tons of hints and buried links to Moonstar lore all through the book, but I've now said too much.
I'm still convinced that the reference to the Prefects in the prologue has something to do with the prophecy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 12:55:43
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To some of the earlier comments on Tsarra not working with some of the darker Moonstar agents I would have to say I disagree. She was constantly shown the sacrifices Khelben made and became even more understanding of why he does what he does, the pain that comes with it, and the ultimate good of his actions. The Moonstars are as complex as Khelben generally speaking. You can't even define a typical moonstar agent by my marks. Once again Steve keeps us on our toes. I loved the Semmemon and Ashemmi references though. The FRCS lore on those two keeps tugging at my mind, making me wonder what is in store for those two.
Oh, does any one else miss Khelben yet? What a hero! He went down in a glorious bang but still I cringe when my fellow gamers mention him. They still don't know that he is dead.  Only my brother does. Gosh, Steve wrote that book well! |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 13:24:36
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I have not read the book and I will not manage to read it for quite some time. So I desided to join despite my little knowledge of the book. I basically have two questions regarding Blackstaff's death.
1. Did he not die some time way back in history already only to reappear as his "own" son (IIRC)?
2. Is it not likely possible that he will make his way back onto the face of Toril similarly or by some other means? I jsut cannot believe him to be gone for good!!!
Thanks in advance to enlighten me and share thy thoughts. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 13:39:39
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In the past Blackstaff faked his own death in the novel he actually dies
As for Tsarra no I dont see working with the evil Moonstars, the undead in particular given her family history. She may underdstand WHY Blackstaff made a "Pact with the devil" but that doesnt mean she agrees with them or that shes going to make the same choices he did (I actually suspect that she has a good alignment)
Also Blackstaff occurs over a 3 day period |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 26 Sep 2006 13:40:48 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 13:57:37
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Thanks for the fast answer, Dragoth. makes me sad! Truely sad!
As for the evil Moonstars: is there some details on them in C&D or where can I find more infos about them? Maybe someone might wants to list a few .........? |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 14:04:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
As for the evil Moonstars: is there some details on them in C&D or where can I find more infos about them? Maybe someone might wants to list a few .........?
yes, two that I remember are in Cloak and Dagger...
a really rough memory: a vampire woman who is affiliated with the Twisted Ruin and a thief (elf) affiliated with the Shadow Masks
and then there is Khelban's relationship with other evil wizards, like Semmenon (sp?) and Maaril...maybe they were Moonstars too (even if they didn't know it  )
** SPOILER BELOW **
and maybe the "good" Semmenon is now a Moonstar...I wondered what could be done with him as a Monnstar vs the Zhentarim due to his indepth knowledge of the Zhentarim |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
Edited by - Kalin Agrivar on 26 Sep 2006 14:07:04 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 14:08:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Thanks for the fast answer, Dragoth. makes me sad! Truely sad!
As for the evil Moonstars: is there some details on them in C&D or where can I find more infos about them? Maybe someone might wants to list a few .........?
City of Splendors page 76 |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 26 Sep 2006 14:16:15 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 16:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Thanks for the fast answer, Dragoth. makes me sad! Truely sad!
As for the evil Moonstars: is there some details on them in C&D or where can I find more infos about them? Maybe someone might wants to list a few .........?
They're noted in both C&D and the new CoS.
-- Kiirma Blackmane (LE), a senior member of the Moonstars and Cloakmaster of Riatavin (of the Shadow Thieves).
-- Asraf yn Malik el Kahaman yi Manshaka of the Moonstars, the LE vampire who has joined with the Moonstars was a deepcover Harper agent. He's not yet made his reasons for staying with the Moonstars known to anyone -- besides possibly Khelben.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 Sep 2006 16:19:42 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 16:34:16
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What I would love to see is the reactions of Danilo, Arilyn and/or possibly Elaith's reaction to this news. It might be interesting to see what they would due if they learned the blackstaff has gone for good or what he died for given the nature of two of the characters.
But Elaine seems to have her plate full. So unless there is a Realms of the Blackstaff or Realms of Elaine Cunningham Vloume Two, I don't think we will be seeing it soon.
Also in a way, I wonder if Khelben will become much like the great druids of Sharnara (Sp?), being able to communicate with the living in a limited way. Like speaking crytic comments that one has to puzzle out (He always liked to keep a secret and this might not change in death).
Just a thought that might be helpful in a game as an option. Perhaps even a quest to find a way to contact the Blackstaff.
Just some thoughts. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
Edited by - Foxhelm on 26 Sep 2006 16:36:57 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 04:58:34
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| Another options would be to offer Blackstaffs Lord of Waterdeep helm to one of Waterdeeps dragon residents maybe Taraunramorlamurla or Jalanvaloss |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 05:43:17
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I am not even sure if Blackstaff academy is going to be in Waterdeep anymore after it was said that a new tower identical is in the new city. That and the fact that Tsara had a new home there. I know blackstaff handed her responsibility but There seemed to be many powerful apprentices of his not to mention allies like semmemmon and ashemi who were turning towards 'the hypothetical light'.
I was wondering more if halaster's actions ahd any effect on the ritual etc. I would love some follow up on the twisted run and semmemmon and other shady evilish characters involved in this event.
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"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1072 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 09:29:51
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I dident see SPOILER "Crap"....
Mod edit: Edited for content.
Sory i said the "sh" word.. I just hat SPOILER´s but sory to u all. I love Candelkkeep...
Put this longer down the page.. plz Dargoth
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Over the last couple of days Ive been musing about what changes Blackstaffs death is going to cause in Waterdeep and else where.
Blackstaffs death left the following position vacant
The Lords of Waterdeep are down one
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Victor Ograygor The Assassin and Candel keeps cellar master
Everything I need to know about life I learned from killing smart people.
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Edited by - Victor_ograygor on 18 Oct 2006 11:34:06 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 21:21:52
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By the way, I don't think Tsarra will or even should totally change her basic beliefs and methods just because she is "Khelben's heir". She's her own person, not a carbon copy of Khelben. That said, I have no doubt that she's changed as a result of her experiences in the novel.
Khelben likes to "mold" and groom people for things, but doesn't strike me as the type to try to make veritable Xeroxes of himself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Oct 2006 05:40:40 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 03:27:53
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| I agree, Khelben seemed to pick those that he was grooming based on them being good at being who they are. He mentions that he originally wanted to make Malchor is "heir," and Malchor doesn't do things exactly like Khelben does either (though I would like to see him show up a bit more often in Realmslore, and especially novels, so that we had a better idea of things he WOULD do). |
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SPOILERS: The Aftermath of Blackstaff Novel
