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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 01:47:34
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So this randomly popped into my head today, for no particularly good reason. What if Lolth isn't really a goddess in the traditional sense of the word? How can this be you ask? Well, let me elaborate on my fevered ruminations (okay, its really just a lukewarm rumination).
Corellon strips Lolth of her power, and we know when she first fell, she was indeed a demon. She was no longer a goddess, but just an imortal embodiment of chaos and evil living in the Abyss. Now, over the years, she gets more and more powerful, and eventually she is now regarded as either an intermediate goddess or a greater goddess if conjecture about the end of the War of the Spider Queen series is correct.
One of the big questions everyone asked during the series was why Lolth had to do the whole "cocoon/rebirth" thing when no other god does, and why she became more powerful when she did this, even though all of the other gods of the Forgotten Realms now only get more powerful from gaining more (or more fervent) worshipers. While she may have made some of her followers more fervent with her silence and return, she hardly had to wall herself up in a cocoon and make herself vulnerable to being destroyed by Vhaeraun in order to do this.
And what the heck did the yor'thae have to do with her coming back? After all, the way the whole Lady Penitant things is shaping up, Halistra is acting more like Lolth's Chosen than Danifae, and Danifae seems like she is just one aspect/avatar of Lolth now. So why did Lolth need her.
Maybe because Lolth isn't really a goddess after all.
I started thinking about this, and the information about the Spider Queen from the Councilor and Kings trilogy sprung to mind. Lolth absorbed the essense of the Spider Queen, a Ilythiiri elf with a propensity for spiders and knowledgeable about the song of the Unseelie faires, and used her "guise." Lolth also abosorbed Zinzerena, drow goddess of assasins. It was implied in the WOTSQ novels that Lolth might have a yor'thae for each facet of her portfolios.
What if somehow Lolth is still "just" a demon, but she somehow taps into each of the aspects that represent one of the facets of her worship. It could be that the whole "rebirth" issues is her way of linking up to another yor'thae to power her "as if" she were a goddess. Each of the yor'thae are actually demi-goddesses in their own rights, but somehow they are all linked to Lolth and she gets to siphon off their power. When she turned Danifae into a demigoddess, it cemented her ability to "act" as a greater goddess.
Or perhaps, "Lolth" the goddess is a composite being, made up of the "core (the demoness Lolth)" and the eight yor'thae, and the bond between them has to be reforged once in a while, especially if one of the demigoddesses that comprises the yor'thae begins to burn out and fade away. In general, Lolth (the demoness) is the main being in charge of the composite goddesses mind, but from time to time the yor'thae exhibit traits as well.
In the greater scheme of things, it may not be a big deal, but its a random thought that occured to me that might make some of the events of the WOTSQ make a bit more sense (although, you never really know what is going on with gods).
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 02:15:17
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*shrugs* Maybe she was always an elder power, that have no divine rank at all?
Making sense of cast down, losing portfolios and gaining different ones , does tend to fit into Divine rank system then being an elder power. Perhaps others have fell (or been cast dowon in rank and rose again, we know some dieties are fading away to nothing.
Corellon named her Demon, and banished her as well. Her children went with her but there is not any official lore I know of saying he stripped any of the their of Divine Rank (In 3.X terms just sent them away. There are many ways to try to explain how things occur, but ISTR that Ed has said divine rank is in the percection of mortals and may never reflect the true nature of deities of the Realms.
All us poor mortals know is that Lolth lost the portfolio of "Elven Destiny" or at least the mortals so believe *wink*, espcially I would think the fair elves. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 01 Aug 2006 17:46:13 |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2006 : 17:30:23
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| Wow, that is most certainly a way to think as Lloth as...I really dont know what to think. |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
954 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2006 : 22:20:37
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| I think that's a very cool observation. |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2006 : 00:57:55
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
So this randomly popped into my head today, for no particularly good reason. What if Lolth isn't really a goddess in the traditional sense of the word? How can this be you ask? Well, let me elaborate on my fevered ruminations (okay, its really just a lukewarm rumination).
Corellon strips Lolth of her power, and we know when she first fell, she was indeed a demon. She was no longer a goddess, but just an imortal embodiment of chaos and evil living in the Abyss. Now, over the years, she gets more and more powerful, and eventually she is now regarded as either an intermediate goddess or a greater goddess if conjecture about the end of the War of the Spider Queen series is correct.
One of the big questions everyone asked during the series was why Lolth had to do the whole "cocoon/rebirth" thing when no other god does, and why she became more powerful when she did this, even though all of the other gods of the Forgotten Realms now only get more powerful from gaining more (or more fervent) worshipers. While she may have made some of her followers more fervent with her silence and return, she hardly had to wall herself up in a cocoon and make herself vulnerable to being destroyed by Vhaeraun in order to do this.
And what the heck did the yor'thae have to do with her coming back? After all, the way the whole Lady Penitant things is shaping up, Halistra is acting more like Lolth's Chosen than Danifae, and Danifae seems like she is just one aspect/avatar of Lolth now. So why did Lolth need her.
Maybe because Lolth isn't really a goddess after all.
I started thinking about this, and the information about the Spider Queen from the Councilor and Kings trilogy sprung to mind. Lolth absorbed the essense of the Spider Queen, a Ilythiiri elf with a propensity for spiders and knowledgeable about the song of the Unseelie faires, and used her "guise." Lolth also abosorbed Zinzerena, drow goddess of assasins. It was implied in the WOTSQ novels that Lolth might have a yor'thae for each facet of her portfolios.
What if somehow Lolth is still "just" a demon, but she somehow taps into each of the aspects that represent one of the facets of her worship. It could be that the whole "rebirth" issues is her way of linking up to another yor'thae to power her "as if" she were a goddess. Each of the yor'thae are actually demi-goddesses in their own rights, but somehow they are all linked to Lolth and she gets to siphon off their power. When she turned Danifae into a demigoddess, it cemented her ability to "act" as a greater goddess.
Or perhaps, "Lolth" the goddess is a composite being, made up of the "core (the demoness Lolth)" and the eight yor'thae, and the bond between them has to be reforged once in a while, especially if one of the demigoddesses that comprises the yor'thae begins to burn out and fade away. In general, Lolth (the demoness) is the main being in charge of the composite goddesses mind, but from time to time the yor'thae exhibit traits as well.
In the greater scheme of things, it may not be a big deal, but its a random thought that occured to me that might make some of the events of the WOTSQ make a bit more sense (although, you never really know what is going on with gods).
That is a very cool and interesting observation, and you are not the first one to have this idea. http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=673
The flavor in that link should give you an idea of what your theory is like. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 04:05:11
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Thanks for the link, that did make for interesting reading. I like my version better of course, but then again, I'm biased, lol.
In case anyone asks, one of the reasons that I was picturing that Lolth might do this divine "power leeching" instead of just trying to instill worship enough to become a goddess herself is that she wanted her old power level back. For example, she might have been able to have enough worshipers to become a demigoddess, but she wasn't happy with that level of power. By linking herself to another demigoddess, she would "boost" her power level artificially.
When she did this again and again, she was "hooked" on doing it, and had already muddied up her ability to function "normally" as a goddess, and instead she had to go through her "rebirth" linking herself to her demigoddess aspects every few millinea to keep up her power level.
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 07:19:54
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| Just asking but is the dicefreaks information on Chaos, Pale Night and Lolth official cannon because i feel the concept is really cool but I've never come across it |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:31:43
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First things first: what is a Demiurge???
Now for the chunky bits:
The idea of a leeching Lolth is good, also (from the thread) the concept that Lolth was Tanar'ri to begin with has its merits. Maybe she was a demon all the time, the absense of any original dark skinned elf gods merits this. After all, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun were born later on but bore their mother's dark skin.
Dark skinned elves are a different matter, since I don't remember any specifically dark skinned deities for dark skinned humans in the Realms pantheon either.
What if the dark skinned elves were merely "another subrace", we got sun elves, moon elves, star elves. A logical continuation of this line would also be NIGHT elves, or dark elves, so we got all the colorations of a day cycle covered.
If the original dark elves were "only" a natural part of evolution so to speak, it would make sense that they were initially goverened by the same deities as the "pale" elves.
In this case the appearance of the dark elves may have been the best "cover" story for the demonqueen Lolth to "appear" as the goddess Araushnee in Arvandor.
Why would Lolth's domain retain the name "Demonwebpits" even after she removed it from the Abyss? Maybe the leeching part is also a ploy. She cannot win against more powerful abyssal lords, yet. To take a time out she moves her own domain.
The one thing that always made me wonder was Corellon "naming" or "pronouncing" (I do not remember the correct wording and don't have my books with me at work) Araushnee tanar'ri. Can a deity turn another god into a demon? If he basically saw through her web of lies and illusions the naming part would make more sense, if he discovered what she truly were...
just my thoughts |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 09:41:47
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Considering Corellon was the deity-head? I say he could do it.
But Zanan thinks differently, of course. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 10:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Considering Corellon was the deity-head? I say he could do it.
But Zanan thinks differently, of course. :)
The problem with that would be that any deity head could do that. However, none of the other deities have done so, Moradin didn't kick Deep Duergar (or whatnot) out of the pantheon and named him Tanar'ri, neither was Vhaeraun named tanar'ri for following his mother. The wording strikes me as curious.
Malkizid was a solar, he got kicked out... could've been Lucifer  .
The rub is that the wording was something along the line as pronouncing her guilty/tanar'ri. Which basically could mean she was guilty all along, which she was... naming her tanar'ri is merely stating what she has always been. If you catch my drift. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aes Tryl
Just asking but is the dicefreaks information on Chaos, Pale Night and Lolth official cannon because i feel the concept is really cool but I've never come across it
Well, they based it on canon, they just elaborated on the stuff wizards never covered. The thing that is so great about Dicefreaks is that they go into more detail about things wizards only brief.
Ex. Wizards says Pale Night is one of the first demons, DF say she was the motha of demons and did all this and that and goes into so much detail about her life.
I woudn't consiter the DF events canon, but since wizards have got nothing better I don't think you should really mind. Of course there are some major changes in their cosmology, like Levistus and Hag Countess are replaced by Leviathan and Lilith(respectfully in that order) in their cosmology. Demogorgon in their cosmology is also said to be the original creator of the abyss and demons. Plus Asmodeus is just the avatar of an overdeity called the Overlord of Hell(but that is not so uncanon as it is based on Guide to Hell).
No it is not all canon, but most of it is based on canon and they go into fields that wizards have never dreamed of with the archfiends. Personally I think DF's archfiends are actually done a lot more professionally and with more care than the official WOTC stuff on them, but that is just my opinion.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:14:20
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Planescape theorized that Pale Night was also a mother of demons, and Hordes of the Abyss really give her some more 'light,' too.
(I love that product.) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:22:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Planescape theorized that Pale Night was also a mother of demons...
Several, including Graz'zt, Lupercio and Vucarik. The PS product was Faces of Evil.
Personally, I always preferred Lynkhab. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 01:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Planescape theorized that Pale Night was also a mother of demons...
Several, including Graz'zt, Lupercio and Vucarik. The PS product was Faces of Evil.
Personally, I always preferred Lynkhab.
I have been hearing so much about Faces of Evil, I definatly gotta get it! It sounds like it has a lot of good info in it. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 11 Aug 2006 01:47:22 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 02:20:15
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It does... and it's definitely worth the price tag -- in either PDF or printed format.
I've never encountered a better treatment on the fiends, devils and 'loths in any other source -- which makes me laugh when I read in Hordes of the Abyss that it's considered the Definitive Source in 3.5e for demons and the Abyss.
While that may be true for 3e, it can never compare to FoE in terms of the overall editions of printed material on demons. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 11 Aug 2006 02:21:45 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 03:21:56
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Agreeing with Sage, here. :)
Hordes of the Abyss is a REALLY really good 3E book. It just doesn't live up to the Planescape material. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 04:31:17
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Oh no problem, I guess I will just have to get both Hordes of the Abyss and FoE: The Fiends
Besides the horrible archfiend stats that are in no way shape or form consistant with cosmology and should be used as nothing but weak aspects of the demon princes, I think Hordes has a lot of nice information in it. I especially like the chapter describing the layers.
Oh, and other nice sources of fiendish info are Hellbound: The Blood War and the unofficial Dicefreaks publishment Gates of Hell. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 10:49:23
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| Hmm i always wanted to know more about the Blood War, the action and campaigns anyways, we hear a lot about the recruitment methods and battle grounds oh but it would be so awesome if we could actually witness or be part off a Blood War battle (well youo can always pick ur least favourite PCs :P) |
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Lolth, Yor'thae, and divinity (WOTSQ Spoilers)
