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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 18:01:24
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Sages, I come seeking your wisdom... I finished a "chapter" of my current campaign and I am ready to start the next. My characters are 1-3 level. They have been chasing a rogue Red Wizard (6th level, minor power in Thay, but well connected) around the North. The Red Wizard has been using a gate network built by a major elven family of Earlann to transport slaves and aid him in his search for lost elven magic. The wizard always travels with a small group of Gnoll mercenaries for protection. The PC's have encountered these Gnolls twice now. The wizard escaped their clutches and disappeared. Here is the deal, I would like to introduce a different type of foe for them to deal with... Is it appropriate to use Drow without making them seem too common, under-powered and not menacing enough? I guess what I am asking is, is it a good idea to introduce them into a low-level campaign? I am not sure if they will be recurring enemies or not. The Red Wizard is planned as a recurring villain. The drow and this Red Wizard will be conducting business, slave trade or some-such. Any advice would be helpful! I hope this makes sense...
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ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 18:57:59
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| Sure. Just make it a small group, with levels that aren't too far past the PC levels. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:14:05
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| And remember the reasons the Drow have a +2 LA. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 23:28:41
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
And remember the reasons the Drow have a +2 LA. ;)
Drow are tricky because at low levels, their power just doesn't match up with their challenge rating. A 1st level drow rogue is CR 2, but really hasn't earned that. A group of 2-4 of them is a pretty high CR for a 1st-3rd level party, but that party would have a good shot at beating them. When drow get to higher levels, though, the boost in attributes, spell resistance, and spell-like abilities can make a leveled character a real problem. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 23:33:52
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| I dunno. I think that SR is pretty much equally a pain-in-the-arse for all levels, since it's scalable. Drow have, what, an SR of 11 + their level? So, 2nd level Drow would have an SR of 13. That's pretty tough for a party of 1st-3rd level adventurers (every other spell on them failing at best, statistically). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 00:35:37
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| If you're worried about ruining the drow mystique, you could run in the opposite direction: introduce a bunch of low-level drow characters, watch them die, and have the players get the idea that drow are push-overs. Then hit them with the elite strike force using magic they've never even heard of and watch their heads spin. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:15:54
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| Haha. I like that idea, Hoondatha. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 01:35:00
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The one problem with any LA race is the low hit points when facing higher level characters. Drow SR does them no good when a sword cuts them down. The Dex can help a little from being hit, but a class level 1 mage will die if hit by two arrows (if the second is even needed).
Also low lwvel PCs level 3 or so would not have that many spells to cast in the first place. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 12:17:25
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| Thanks all for the good advice! Hoondatha, you scare me! That is seriously twisted! I like that, wish I would have thought of that... |
ShadowJack |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 17:52:42
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quote:
The one problem with any LA race is the low hit points when facing higher level characters. Drow SR does them no good when a sword cuts them down. The Dex can help a little from being hit, but a class level 1 mage will die if hit by two arrows (if the second is even needed).
Also low lwvel PCs level 3 or so would not have that many spells to cast in the first place.
Which is a reason why the CR system makes no sense to me, still. Completely different situations lead to different challenges.
I play only spellcasters, so; SR is worth a lot of an LA in respect to said casters. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 18:33:05
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In all honesty, CR and EL make more sense to me than static XP, because at higher levels, it makes perfect sense that if Lord Exadventurer is leading purple dragons in Cormyr and fighting off orcs and hobgoblins all the time, and none of them are really a challenge to him, it helps to explain while, dispite him being active, he has stayed a 12th level fighter for the last ten years.
On the other hand, it isn't a perfect system, and there are times when you have to "tweak" encounters and such. Then again, (don't tell anyone), while I like the system, I usually divide XP by half or fouths to slow down advancement . . . |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 18:37:28
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| Oh, a note about the drow and using their abilities. I always had a hard time with drow taking advantage of their darkness ability because it would affect their allies as well (your darkness doesn't know who your friends are, so if you are within 20 feet of them, you screw them up as well). In the Miniatures Handbook they mention substituting Veil of Shadows for darkness, which is a personal range spell, meaning that individual drow can go into an encounter with it with their concealment without affecting their "friends." |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 18:43:41
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| The 2E experience system worked fine if you consider the fact that it took much longer, and more XP points, to actually level at mid and upper levels especially. A 14th level wizard could kill a thousand orcs and not gain a level. And, if you had DMs like I did, you wouldn't get XP for it anyway, since he didn't award XP for combat unless it utilized something more intrinsic about expanding our class abilities. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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wildmage
Acolyte
20 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 17:21:33
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| Along the lines of KnightErrantJR's comment about "tweaking," I think Drow are a good example of NPC's that can benefit from a couple levels of warrior or expert. Get 2 more hit dice, some BAB increase, some skill points, and only 1 increase in CR. Or, just give each drow an additional 2 HD and don't touch the CR. I seem to remember hearing something about the Drow in the City of the Spider Queen module all carrying items that gave them additional HPs. |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 17:38:21
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| What was the topic again? Oh... drow plots. Remember to use poison. Drow without poison are just tanned skinny gnomes. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 19:28:51
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Glad you liked the suggestion. It's one of those hit-or-miss things, where if it works it's great and if it doesn't it doesn't.
And I totally agree about the poison. Drow are famous for it. Also, the Underdark is a confined, 3-d environment that your players and the PC's may not be familiar with. Use ambushes, hit and run tactics, and take advantage of ledges and other geographical features (the same is true with surface elves in forests). This works especially well when you factor in the poison, and if you get higher level drow that can levitate into position. Don't just send them charging mindlessly into battle... that's what orc slaves are for. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Kazzaroth
Learned Scribe
Finland
104 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 00:03:53
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I would suggest use house Jaelre drows and sue them as 2lvl warriors (perhaps one adept) to make them CR 2 foes. I would suggest 5 of them get a total nice sum of CR 5 encounter and these drows would definently have daylight adaption feat. Other case is to get two drow rogues, two drow fighters and one cleric of Vhaeraun and all being 1lvl.
Pair rogues whit fighters if any melee issues but drow do not play fair and Jaelre house drows KNOW how to move in surface so they can lay traps and good ranged combat ambushes. I think all drows would be using shortbows instead crossbows and would use definently poison. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2006 : 02:00:17
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 I am very glad I asked this question! How could I forget about drow sleep-poison? I also like the suggestion of using House Jhaelre drow; already adapted to the daylight and easier to explain their having dealings with a minor level Red Wizard! One more step in his "slave-trading for profit scheme" to fund his treasure seeking in old elven ruins... Methinks this Red Wizard (and the Jhaelre drow-unbeknownst to him) have an unhealthy desire for Vyshaan magic... |
ShadowJack |
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Drow as low-level adversaries?
