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varyar
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:33:55
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What were dark elves like before they became drow? Not just culturally, although I'm curious about that (I see them as like the stereotypical sun elves, and then some), but physically? They didn't always have the black skin and white hair before being cast down, if I'm not mistaken. Is there any canon information about them in the good ol' days?
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:51:15
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Ya might want to get the free download of Cormanthor 2 edition sourcebook at wizards.com. If I recall there is a little history pre-crown wars.  This may help some...I hope. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:59:10
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There is lore, what people believe in FR that does support the idea that the desecnt included turning their skin as black as their hearts.
Canon, last time I checked, indicates that all dark elves (not just those of Ilythiiri) did have dark skin before the Desent. There is no mention of hair color that I know of. The actual magical effects of how the Desent worked is not clear, but indeed there was a change to them (lightblindness if nothing else).
Lore says that Araushnee had a dark skin and to her charge was given the dark skined elves. This of course before she was cast down and took the name Lolth. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 23:19:57
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| Cormanthyr sourcebook tells you what they mostly looked like. :) Moon elves height and weight but with dusky/greyish skin, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 24 Jun 2006 23:23:37 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 23:57:37
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| And Moon Elves stat-wise, age-wise, etc. They were more like a combo of Moon Elves and Sun Elves, with a more chaotic and twisted morality (remember, the Ilythiiri turned to evil before the Crown Wars ever started, and as far as we know, only the Vyshaanti did among the Sun Elves). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:16:54
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*wink* That is why no gold elf can weild a true moonblade.
Broad sweeping statements always have some risk. Yes it is canon that dark elves caused The War of Three Leaves, but clearly not all of them. The Ilythiiri that knew followed orders of the commanders, just like the gold followed the commands of the Vyshaanti. All in all the Gold look worst, the Ilythiiri provided shelter to those dispossessed from Miyeritar. A small thing perhaps to their cerdit, hiwever no lore has the Gold of Aryvandaar providing any aid at all.
Edit, had wrong war name, but still the entire nation did not cause it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 Jun 2006 01:05:51 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:24:14
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Actually, if you read Elaine's replies about them, she says that there's nothing more intrinsically evil about Sun Elves. She hates the stereotype of "evil" Sun Elves.
The Ilythiiri employed non-Elven war tactics, which is why they're "worse" than the Golds. The Golds made war on their neighbors, but they did not consort with demons, burn down forests, or revel in cruelty or pain. And note that Aryvandaar, even under the rule of the Vyshaanti, tried 100 years of peaceful annexation of Ilythiir before going to war, and by that time, the Ilythiiri were already worshipping Ghaundaur.
To her, Moonblades are for Moon Elves, because they're Moon Elves, and little else.
The most famous Elven leaders and heroes have often been Sun Elves, of the good variety. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 25 Jun 2006 00:26:48 |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:25:04
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Such a strong word "evil." Maybe we could just say that the Vyshaanti had good intentions but bad methods. So we will call them mild meglomaniacs. Now the Ilythiiri, well is that fair to call them evil even before the Crown Wars? Just because they had the guts to study darker magics and weren't opposed to assassination does that make them evil? Well.......yes. Heck, I have no argument for those crazy elves. 
Now on a more serious note, where is the descent of the Ilythiiri best described?  |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
Edited by - Wandering_mage on 25 Jun 2006 00:25:41 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:29:05
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I would say that the Vyshaanti were firmly evil (and also insane). However, Elaine has said as far as she's concerned (and we've seen no canon saying otherwise), the rest of Aryvandaar were not evil Elves.
Whereas, according to what she thinks, it was different for Ilythiiri. No specific noble/ruling houses were named; it mentions the Ilythiiri as a whole falling into evil worship and ways. Their troops committed acts most heinous to Elven mindset, which the Sun Elves did not. :)
Sun Elf fan, me? Yes.
(The Vyshaanti were still insane, evil, bloodthirsty bastards, though.) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:35:38
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Actually, if you read Elaine's replies about them, she says that there's nothing more intrinsically evil about Sun Elves. She hates the stereotype of "evil" Sun Elves.
As do I. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 00:51:35
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Hmm a few things to reply to.
I do not know what is the best canon Description of the Desent. There is even little lore about this (lore being what a people believe which could be fact or very far away from fact).
In 2nd Edition the Drow wre more or less protrayed as having an Evil gene, that the rare good Drow had to overcome. Drow was designed to be one of the great Evil forces in D&D and the Realms. I suspect that Eilistraee was not asked for until RAS persented a goodish Drow fighting against his heritage. 3.X has clearly made major efforts to remove the evil Drow gene, though many Drow remain Evil because of culture they grow up in.
As far as Dark elves being the first to use fire in war with elves (which is canon) I find that hard to believe, this being part of having the evil gene I quess. Even in current versions of Elven tatics, the "fair elves" perfer to attack from the distance and stealth with their bows, avoiding as much as posible face to face combat with invaders.
I did not say all gold wre Evil, just that it appears that the gold of Aryvandaar provided as much support to the war of conguest and Evil tactics used as did the dark of Ilythiiri (which of course might have included survivors of Miyeritar (both dark and green).
Perhaps there will be a treatment of the Crown wars in detail, that will show good Gold, Good dark, detail of the Desent spell effect. It would be really nice to know whom caused the Dark Disaster as well. Not sure if this will occur. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 01:02:16
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quote:
As far as Dark elves being the first to use fire in war with elves (which is canon) I find that hard to believe, this being part of having the evil gene I quess. Even in current versions of Elven tatics, the "fair elves" perfer to attack from the distance and stealth with their bows, avoiding as much as posible face to face combat with invaders.
In the Fall of Myth Drannor we see specific Elven fire spells that do not affect plantlife; the Elves held a great esteem for plantlife of all sorts, and burning down their forests was equivalent in their society to the rape or murder in ours.
quote:
I did not say all gold wre Evil, just that it appears that the gold of Aryvandaar provided as much support to the war of conguest and Evil tactics used as did the dark of Ilythiiri (which of course might have included survivors of Miyeritar (both dark and green).
No, it's the fact that the Vyshaanti and Aryvandaar did not use these Evil tactics (despite their Evil alignments) that they were not Banished. Evil, to a degree, is accepted just fine among the Tel'Quessir. It's when that Evil demonstrates itself in a way that goes against Elven culture that it is no longer tolerated.
quote:
Perhaps there will be a treatment of the Crown wars in detail, that will show good Gold, Good dark, detail of the Desent spell effect. It would be really nice to know whom caused the Dark Disaster as well. Not sure if this will occur.
WotC has a distinct disinterest in going into detail about things that do not directly affect the current playability of the Realms. :( |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 01:26:35
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Err it was reported that Vyshaanti started on a campaing to kill High Mages because they feared they were next. In fairness those that looked at the two evil forces it appears that the South dark elves were considered worst then the rulers of Aryvandaar.
I think my point stands that the Gold of Aryvandaar, allowed the war of conquest and indeed might have supported the Dark Diaster.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050202a&page=4
I believe is the current canon timeline. Canon subject to change every day of course.
" -18000 Some Ilythiiri houses discover Ghaunadaur and begin venerating him in secret. In the centuries that follow, rival Ilythiiri houses turn to other dark deities, such as Lolth." is the official start of things. The time line does not mention Eilistraee at all. So it is valid claim that dark elves truned to Evil, perhaps most of them over 900 years (The first war starting about 900 years later and that caused by stealth the Crown wars coming some 2,000 years later).
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 01:48:04
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| The Vyshaanti did - specifically. Not Aryvandaarians. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4686 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 02:43:35
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
The Vyshaanti did - specifically. Not Aryvandaarians.
All the dark elves got punished for thier leaders, the same theory should apply to Aryvandaarians. The Aryvandaarians allowed the Vyshaanti to rule after all. They could have rebelled.
Of course the Desent is worst in that even those dark elves that oposed the Ilythiiri leaders, were banished from the light as well.
Not all dark elves cast fires balls, any more then all Aryvandaarians started raiding and killing those of Miyeritar. Both empires/kingdoms allowed the leadership to do some extremely evil things. A member of a nation has a few choices, opose evil, support it or evade it. Oh there are choices one can make to rationisile supporting an evil goverment, including they will kill me if I don't, to much lessor degrees of support (including aiding to infiltrate and distroy from within but even this holds , often, the taint of Evil).
All in all the Crown Wars were started by Gold with tacict if not active support of most Aryvandaarians. No nation can stand if no one supports its leaders. IN FR strike not an likely option, however imigation certainly was posible. At the time there was not anything like what exists now, Drow did not exist. There were other elven nations that should have been welcoming of "The People" no natter their skin color. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 03:04:49
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quote:
All the dark elves got punished for thier leaders, the same theory should apply to Aryvandaarians.
There is nothing that points out to any one, or even multiple, noble houses being the primary reasons for Ilythiir banishment. Some people ASSUME it was just their leaders. If this was true, then their troops would not have practiced burning, torture, and the like on a large scale. We have no evidence supporting the ASSUMPTION that only Ilythiiri noble houses were corrupt; in every reference we have, it states 'Ilythiiri,' NOT a single ruling body as it does with Aryvandaar and the Vyshaanti.
As stated, Elaine Cunningham, who wrote Evermeet, states that she believes this is the main difference. The Ilythiiri were corrupted as a WHOLE, whereas the Aryvandaarians were not. The Vyshaanti never ordered them to torture, main, or burn down forests; they simply ordered them to War, and War is not innately Evil to the Elves. And note that up to the Vyshaanti, there's no inferences stating that Aryvandaar was at all corrupt, and they were not even war-like until the Vyshaanti arise.
The Ilythiiri had been worshipping evil powers (Lolth and Ghaundaur) for centuries, if not millennia, as a whole. No lore singles out any specific house - it refers to the entire population, generally (although obviously it wasn't ALL of them, but rather a majority). The Aryvandaarians did not know that the Vyshaanti were blatantly evil and against Elven tradition, because they didn't perform actions that their followers were aware of which did these things.
If Malkazid was their patron, he could have corrupted or deflected any attempts to divine their nature or their actions. Wealdath could have done the same - but obviously didn't, since the majority of Ilythiiri (NOT a single ruling house) were fallen long into depravity and evil.
Good people fight under Evil leaders every day in the real world, and they do so because they are not asked to do specifically Evil things. Every soldier in a national army is not automatically evil just because he kills the enemy soldiers, regardless of the leaders' alignments.
Yes, according to the Seldarine, worshipping Lolth is Evil. And it's not just "evil," it's "Evil" with a capital E.
If I have missed any references to specific Ilythiiri Noble houses being mentioned as corrupted/evil (like the Vyshaanti), and passages which do NOT state that the Ilythiiri as a whole fell into the worship of Ghaundaur BEFORE the Crown Wars ever stated, then please point them out to me.
References only, please. I'd rather not stand for assumptions, when there's no way to prove an assumption, one way or the other (especially in this case, when the facts as printed are completely logical with the final repercussions of all parties involved). |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 25 Jun 2006 03:16:38 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2006 : 03:22:49
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I definately got the impression that the Ilythiiri were much more decadant and twisted to an elf than the Aryvandaar elves. The way it seemed to me, and this was just my impression, is that the elves of Aryvandaar has some powerful, evil, and twisted leaders (most notably, the Vyshaan) that had enough power and influence to drag the rest of the realm with them when they started problems for the rest of the elven nations. At worst, in this case, the other elves of Aryvandaar were just too weak of character, too scared, or too proud to stand up to the Vyshaan. None of this means that they were irredeemably evil, just that for whatever reason there were not enough Aryvaandar elves that were opposed to the Vyshaan to counter them when they hatched some of their worst plots.
On the other hand, the impression that I got of the Ilythiiri was that, by and large, most of them were actually actively evil. It wasn't just that there were powerful Ilythiiri leaders that led a lot of innocent Ilythiiri into a bad situation, but that many of them were actually actively involved in the plots of their leaders and just trying to see how they could themselves benefit or move up in station due to the events unfolding. In fact, the whole jockying for social standing while covertly messing with your neighbors is likely a consistant trait from this time period, not something that came about because of Lolth or the Decscent.
The difference would be that the average Aryvandaar elf might be neutral or even good, and just not have risen up against the Vyshaan due to numerous circumstances, whereas the average Ilythiiri was actually more inclined to be evil, and was only not in charge because they lacked the initiative, drive, or talent to direct the plots that unfolded, rather than just going along with them and doing what they could to benefit from them.
This doesn't mean that the only evil Aryvandaar elves were the Vyshaan, or that there were not some good Ilythiiri, but to put it in these terms (and this is just based on anecdotal presentation and not hard and fast numbers that have ever been supplied) I would say the majority of the Aryvandaar elves were neutral or good, while the majority of the Ilythiiri were evil.
But all of this is just the impressions I have gotten from reading the sourcebooks and Evermeet. Its never really been spelled out as a numbers game, but its the impression that I got from the context of the lore and stories. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 01:06:32
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| And the are impressions that are supported by both assumptions by Elaine Cunningham and printed canon in Cormanthyr and LEoF, neither of which reference any specific Ilythiiri Houses. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 01:56:45
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| Wow! Amazing discussion. Elaine's work has defintiely helped to clear some of the fog surrounding the situation. So I for one will stick with Elaine's wise words. I wouldn't mind reading a book based on the Crown Wars. There are some cool events that need some literary representation other than being put on a timeline and a sourcebook paragraph. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 02:15:20
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| Hence why according to me, Elaine is Queen of the Elves. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:29:41
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Tsk tsk, the poor Vyshaans get slandered so cruelly.. The Vyshaans started the Crown Wars with the intention of unifying the elves.. They alone had forethought and planning to realize that the elves needed to stand together as a single people in order to guide the future of the world for the benefit of both the elves and the other races.. Unfortunately, despite centuries of trying to talk sense into them, the other elven kingdoms were too petty and power-hungry, desperately clinging on to their own little fiefdoms rather than join together in a synergistic relationship that would benefit everyone.. Seeing that diplomacy would never work with such stubborn folk, the Aryvaandars had no choice but to go the paternal and tough-love route and bring the other elves to enlightenment by force.. No the Vyshaan were not the villains, the true evil villains of this piece are all the other elves who resisted them.. Had they only listened with reason, none of the Crown Wars would have been necessary.. There would have been no big killing storm in Miyeritar.. The Illythiir would have had no reason to get upset and start attacking their neighbors.. And all the ills that plague Faerun today would never have happened.. Instead, High Magic would rule supreme, the Netherese Empire would never have been born, humans would know their place, and instead of a Retreat there would have been a continent spanning elven empire that wisely and benevolently guided all the races to live in harmony with nature.. All of that potential lost by those petty and power hungry Moon and Green elves who screwed everything up.. Let's face it, the Vyshaans are only called "evil" because they were visionaries.. Everybody else was too blind to see the possibilities, too ignorant to look at the future and see something else besides the trees of their own forest.. Oh sure, there was that whole Malkizid thing, but he WAS an archon at one point, and really anybody could have made that mistake.. It's pretty small-minded to hold that against them with all the Good the COULD have done.. I mean really, it was all in the best interests of the elves..
((No, I'm not serious.)) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:39:45
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| Actually, that was a great example of what a Vyshaan supporter or appologist might have said, so its actually pretty cool to see someone do the "devil's advocate" thing and write out a defense from that perspective. Is it total BS in the long run? Yes. But is it the type of thing that a lot of people in Aryvandaar likely said as they turned a blind eye to what was going on . . . definately! |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 03:44:17
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Blasphemer!! When the New Aryvaandar Revolution comes, YOU WILL BE FIRST AGAINST THE WALL!!!!  |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 05:21:58
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quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
Blasphemer!! When the New Aryvaandar Revolution comes, YOU WILL BE FIRST AGAINST THE WALL!!!!
<utters Word of Gold Elf Slaying> there now I'm safe.  |
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 15:18:10
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| I quite agree KnighterrantJR. As to a spell of Gold elf slaying I say NAY! Golds can handle their own in a spell battle. Then again Evocation spells are equal opportunity aren't they? Well then I misspoke. |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 20:10:10
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See, I fully admit that the Vyshaanti were bastards.
My favorites are the Durothils. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 15:45:04
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| When talking about this stuff about the Ilythirii using fire magic that was blasphemous to elven nature etc etc people seem to forget(or I might have missed something) that the Ilythirii started with that tactic after the Dark Disaster(sent by the sun elves) which wiped out all of Miyeritar. I`m sorry, but a big necromantic cloud that destroyed a whole nation seems a far worse crime to me than using fire magic. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:20:19
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It was performed by the Vyshaanti High Magi - you know, the ones who were corrupted by Malkazid.
Who were all sentenced to death.
The vast majority of Sun Elves never had any clue this happened, even the Aryvandaarians. In previous editions, it wasn't even pinned down as to who did it. It was all a huge, terrible mystery.
And among the Elves, the name is a curse as bad as that of Dhaereow.
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Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 30 Jun 2006 18:21:59 |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:40:53
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
When talking about this stuff about the Ilythirii using fire magic that was blasphemous to elven nature etc etc people seem to forget(or I might have missed something) that the Ilythirii started with that tactic after the Dark Disaster(sent by the sun elves) which wiped out all of Miyeritar. I`m sorry, but a big necromantic cloud that destroyed a whole nation seems a far worse crime to me than using fire magic.
thats totally true..the elven "anti-fire" stand does not make sense at all...FYI I work in the Natural Resources field (forestry, fish & Wildlife, etc.) and fire is necessary to most ecosystems at some level...fire is neithor good nor evil, but an elemental force, and more importantly, in a temperate and sub-arctic climate(which is the Dales north) a necessary cleansing force that forests need to regenerate into the next generation, if elves hated the use of fire, then their druids must have had a rough time at it, setting prescription fires to enrich the forests
and yes, wide scale fire magics in war are a totally different subject
and Miyeritar was a green/dark elf kingdom, enslaved by the Aryvaandar/Vashaans...didn't the Vashaans invoke the Dark Disaster? Didn't the Ilythirii start the Third Crown war in responce to the gold elves destruction of Miyeritar?
Kalin |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 18:42:00
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Read my above post.
Also, the first Elven conflict is as follows:
-17,100: The War of Three Leaves begins. Ilythiiri spies and assassins incite Syorpiir, Thearnytaar, and Eiellur into a three-sided conflict to prevent them from unifying into a single state.
The Vyshaan did not strike the first blow amongst other Elves.
The first instance we see of the Vyshaan acting against other Elves is this:
-14,700: Citing familial connections between the ruling houses of Aryvandaar and Miyeritar, the Vyshaanti begin attempting to annex Miyeritar by peaceful means. Miyeritar resists.
So, in the eyes of the Aryvandaarians, the Vyshaanti had legitimate claim to Miyeritar. They may well have been lying, but that doesn't mean that Aryvandaar didn't believe them in the first place. They wouldn't be the first people deceived by their government.
And BEFORE THE DARK DISASTER, we see this (paraphrased):
-11,700: The Second Crown War begins; Ilythiir launches surprise attacks against Orishaar, an ally of Aryvandaar (who had not engaged in any combative activities against the Dark Elves).
-11,600: The Ilythiiri burn Syorpiir to the ground.
The Dark Disaster did not occur until -10,500, AFTER the Vyshaanti were already under Malkazid's thumb.
These are the facts, drawn from LEoF.
Did the Vyshaanti deserve to be punished? Yes. Did the entire subrace of Sun Elves deserve to be banished? Heck no.
The Ilythiiri as a whole committed more heinous acts before the Vyshaanti ever came about, including the worshipping of Ghaundaur. And they refer to the ILYTHIIRI committing these acts, over and over, NOT a single group or ruling house. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 30 Jun 2006 18:53:53 |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 22:17:24
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| err... Was the timeline changed in LEoF??.. Coulda sworn the last copy of the Grand History that I had listed the destruction of Miyertiar as happening before the Ilythiiri go on the warpath.. In fact, IIRC there were implications that the Ilythiiri went on the warpath BECAUSE of the destruction of Miyertiar.. (Then again, considering my soft spot for the Vyshaans, maybe I just imagined it).. In any case, changing the timeline that far back is pretty easy to justify.. After all, to a biased historian, what are a couple thousand years here or there?.. Place one event before or after another and you've justified everything.. Like all history, it depends on the sources you use.. |
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Yet another elf related question
