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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2006 : 09:34:35
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I listed “other” because not all the same FR books are equally useful to DMs as they are to Players and vice versa.
If a DM: Tie between Lost Empires/Underdark/Magic of Faerûn..
If a player: Player’s Guide to Faerûn.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 03:57:20
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| PGtF. Feats, Spells, and prestige classes. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 06:00:37
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Yes, Eric. I know. Because you have this magical thing called follow through. I respect it. It is good. All great people who work should have it.
Ironically, the problem for me is the challenge ratings of some of the creatures and what they do. Let's say you build Terpenzi, and he's CR33. Okay. Terpenzi is CR 33. Now, what happens when you have to FIGHT Terpenzi?
Most games really don't last this long, Eric. So unless Terpenzi is the conclusion of your game, along with the rest of the Kingdom of Najara, there seems to be little point in the exercise.
BUT...let's say Game Designer Fred wants to have a bigger dice phallus than you. So he whips out his pen and paper, and he designs a CR 40 creature.
Now, if almost no one is going to fight the CR 33 creature, what are the chances that the CR 40 creature statblock is going to see use? It's an exponentially smaller number. Quite frankly, if my PC's found a CR 40 creature, and combat ensued without a seriously UBER plan, (Highest Group is levels 23-25), I would just say "Give me your sheets. You all DIE!"
I know that a LOT of game designers statblock things on the idea of "This is what I think they should have." But, my thought on this is that if the creature can do THAT much, and the number of people who will use the sheet is small, fill those four pages with either A) Lore, which I think more people would appreciate than a statblock that will never see use, or B) 1-2 Region Specific PRCs, which will see more use.
I'm not picking on people. Far from it. Most of the stuff we have is really nice, and I'm being a little nitpicky, and I know it. It's just that every so often, a book comes along like Serpent Kingdoms, and I say "I didn't need to know this much" or Lost Empires of Faerun, which also told me too much.
When I buy a supplement, I want a supplement that's going to encourage my creativity, to get me to think about what doors can be opened and what options I have. I don't want those creative options closed down, which is why I'm not a fan of novels=sourcebooks. Is it possible that I'm in the minority? Sure! But I always thought that D+D was a creative game, that encouraged teamwork, group participation, problem solving skills, and the development of writing and social skills. Maybe these aren't worthy goals for the game anymore, and maybe I ride my players too hard, sure! But for those of us who are old school, the books have to be good too. :) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 06:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Msatran
When I buy a supplement, I want a supplement that's going to encourage my creativity, to get me to think about what doors can be opened and what options I have. I don't want those creative options closed down, which is why I'm not a fan of novels=sourcebooks. Is it possible that I'm in the minority? Sure! But I always thought that D+D was a creative game, that encouraged teamwork, group participation, problem solving skills, and the development of writing and social skills. Maybe these aren't worthy goals for the game anymore, and maybe I ride my players too hard, sure! But for those of us who are old school, the books have to be good too. :)
You are starting to sound a bit arrogant here. Different peoples creativity get fed by different things. To me the books you mention as having to much are the ones that gets my creative gray cells working. If you feel Serpent Kingdoms is stifling to your creativity that's fine, but don't put your own taste as a criteria for how other peoples minds work around materials.
It may be that I misunderstood your post, and in that case I am sorry. |
Edited by - Jorkens on 12 Jul 2006 12:26:59 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 06:58:32
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*Boggle* You thought that Lost Empires was too much, Msatran?
If there's one thing I could have wished more from it, it would have been more space devoted to each section. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6643 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 07:25:39
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Msatran, the difficulty designers have is that they simply can't please everyone. Some fans want more lore, others want more rules, some need stuff for low-level campaigns, others need material for ridiculously high-level campaigns, etc. etc. There is no solution to this. Imagine if Terpenzi had been statted out as a CR20 creature (like the current demon lords in the new Abyss book) - I guarantee you that some smartie pants would have piped up immediately and said, "Why doesn't Khelben Arunsun kill Terpenzi like he can so easily do?" or "Why hasn't Shade conquered Nagara given how Telamont Tanthul would own Terpenzi in a fight?" etc.
Designers tread a very difficult, fine line. And remember one thing - and if you are going to appreciate FR products now and in the future, it's an important thing - no designer is ever going to mirror your exact, particular needs with their creative output. Ever. I understand you have a campaign running in Impiltur. My article is unlikely to be the be-all and end-all for that campaign. It likely won't even be close. But if you criticize the content simply on the basis that it doesn't match your own creative vision for a particular topic, then you are wasting your time and energy. I was never ever going to write an Impiltur article to match your creative vision for the kingdom, simply because I was writing it to match mine. You might like some of my creation, likely will dislike more than you like, but you have to respect the content and decisions made by a writer/designer for what they are - a product of their creative processes. Whether it's statting out a creature, describing a region, coming up with a new feat, or assigning a basic statline to a fictional character, such work is purely personal and either liked or disliked. It's never wrong, just different.
Oh, and I hope my article gets your creative juices flowing. Heck, I left enough plot hooks and dangling stuff there for a reason.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 08:05:28
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Well, Sage, first I'm going to quote you, and then...
I'm assuming you're actually referring to Swordsage, and not me? 
That is, since your quote is what Swordsage said.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 12 Jul 2006 08:06:19 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 11:21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Not to mention, you can take that "it should be left to the DM" to the extreem and say that all we really "need" to have published is the FRCS, and the rest should be "up to the DM." I rather liked the information in Serpent Kingdoms, and the main issue I had with the product was simply the lack of maps.
Hey! I fixed that!!! A little late and not actually in the books, but I did finally get y'all the maps I intended for it all along. :-)
--Eric
Don't get me wrong Eric . . . I definately appreciated those. I was just waiting for someone to say that not everyone who buys the books will have access to those maps if I had mentioned the maps online. Heck, those maps were pretty useful even if you aren't doing anything related to "scalyfolk." |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2066 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2006 : 12:20:20
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
I'm not picking on people. Far from it. Most of the stuff we have is really nice, and I'm being a little nitpicky, and I know it. It's just that every so often, a book comes along like Serpent Kingdoms, and I say "I didn't need to know this much" or Lost Empires of Faerun, which also told me too much.
OK, not to be obtuse, but I'm not sure I understand your point.
You don't like Serpent Kingdoms because ...
Too much crunch (e.g. Terpenzi stat block)?
Too much lore?
Lore is not vague enough?
Something else?
You don't like Lost Empires of Faerun because ...
Too much crunch?
Too much lore?
Lore is not vague enough?
Something else?
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:04:16
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Serpent Kingdoms: Too Much Crunch, not enough information on the modern realms. My problem is always that people focus too much on the past, and not enough on the present. The best thing about the old supplements was that they left the past alone and let the DMs make it up. Excessive statblocking is always wasteful. I love it when Ed just says something like "NG Human Fighter 16" and leaves you to design the fighter yourself. If something happened fifteen thousand years ago, in the absence of recorded history, realistically, no matter how high your Knowledge Arcana is, unless you are a Sarrukh yourself, it is unlikely that any of this information would ever reach the eyes and ears of your players. This is the stuff that should be revealed in little bits and pieces over time, so when the PC's finally face "Lizard Man who ruled the world" they say "Oh, my god, it's one of the Lizard Men Who Ruled The World!" Instead, by dropping that on us all at once, it takes away the fear from the players, because it kills the suspense.
If there was a supplement that SHOULD have been a bunch of adventures, like Mysteries of the Moonsea, it was Lost Empires of Faerun. How do your PC's find them? What's in there? What might the PC's expect to encounter in Lost Gauntylgrim, or the accursed Mythal of the Wealdath (Whose name escapes me at the moment, Eric, because I'm not as up on the names as I should be.) These are areas that need to be mapped and described, with encounter areas and statblocks. This was a supplement that should have been about adventuring in those areas now. What made the Forgotten Realms special was that these great kingdoms WERE Forgotten. The joy of (re)discovering them, in the old edition, was much more up to the DM. What happened to those lost empires was not a subject, other than the Crown Wars that divided the elves, that I believed would ever be addressed, so in the time honored fashion of DMs everywhere, I made stuff up. Now my stuff doesn't exactly match your stuff, and running my long running game has become like releasing a patch every six months. It makes me feel stupid, and like I work too hard, but those feelings last only a few minutes when the supplements come out. (Sadly, Asperger's Syndrome is not always that easy to live with) :)
I realize A) That most people do not run games this way. B) That you can't satisfy all of the people all of the time, and that I am one of the pickiest customers on Earth. C)
Whereas, with a name like Mysteries of the Moonsea, I really found very few of the Moonsea's secrets to be exposed. This was a book that should have been all about "The Politics of Evil" and what Fzoul thinks of Rassendyll, What the relationships between the various factions of the Church of Bane are like, etc. Instead, we got a series of modules when all of the locations that a DM might think needed to be statted would be in Lost Empires of Faerun. That should have been a 250 page big crunchy module, where PC's get to explore all of these places, deal with dangerous monsters (Many of them New), face bizarre magic items (Many of them new), and deal with evil spellcasters loaded with ancient spells. Where did they come from? The DM can make that up. :) I'm just concerned that somehow, I'm playing the game backwards, and that it's hurting my players. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:12:46
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Whereas, with a name like Mysteries of the Moonsea, I really found very few of the Moonsea's secrets to be exposed.
Well, that's why they're called mysteries. 
*chuckles* Just kidding, I couldn't resist. Anyway, I do find myself agreeing with many of your sentiments (such as "leave the past a mystery, sometimes"). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:26:40
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| I'd just like to comment that having read City of Splendors: Waterdeep from cover to cover (again), I think it's probably the best regional sourcebook we've had for the 3E Realms. It's very well written, balances old and new lore, has *interesting and useful* crunchy bits, and really captures the feel of the place. *tips hat to Eric* |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:29:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
I'd just like to comment that having read City of Splendors: Waterdeep from cover to cover (again), I think it's probably the best regional sourcebook we've had for the 3E Realms. It's very well written, balances old and new lore, has *interesting and useful* crunchy bits, and really captures the feel of the place. *tips hat to Eric*
I second that! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:31:40
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Thank you, Rin. :)
Oh, and George? I am that smartypants. :) Yes. That makes me a stupendous jerk, and I realize this, but at least I'll admit that yeah, I did ask you guys "Why hasn't Shade conquered Najara?" at some point in the past. I'm just not sure whether it was here or on the Wizards boards. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
I'd just like to comment that having read City of Splendors: Waterdeep from cover to cover (again), I think it's probably the best regional sourcebook we've had for the 3E Realms. It's very well written, balances old and new lore, has *interesting and useful* crunchy bits, and really captures the feel of the place. *tips hat to Eric*
Agreed one of the things that really ticks me off is Eric got the Regional format right and then Wizards decided to throw the format away in exchange for the totally inadequeat Mysteries of the Moonsea format  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 00:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by msatran
Thank you, Rin. :)
You're welcome.  I think it's nice when people just speak their minds. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 01:07:04
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I very much liked Waterdeep, too. As far as regional sourcebooks go, it's one of my favorites, along with Silver Marches and Shining South. Of course, I really liked LEoF and Serpent Kingdoms and Races of Faerun, too. Sure, there was more crunch than I would have liked in some, but it's 3E - what'chya' gonna' do, no matter who the author is? ;)
And yes... Some of us like lore for playing the game just as much as mechanics, if not more! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 13 Jul 2006 01:08:25 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 01:33:43
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I've yet to see a copy of Mysteries of the Moonsea, but am currently not inclined to purchase it. Lack of funds for one, and Final Gate and Blackstaff are both much higher up my list of priorities.
I feel City of Splendors and Silver Marches are the best regional sourcebooks in terms of format, but particularly the former.
My other personal favourites are Races of Faerûn and Lost Empires of Faerûn.
That said I'm generally easy to please and can find good in most things. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 01:42:35
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| I can find bad and good in most things, but when the bad heavily outweighs the good, it's usually best to try to decrease the proliferation of the bad then try to just keep the status quo of the good. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 06:15:47
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| Well so far it appears that LEoF seems to have the most votes for the most useful 3E sourcebook companion to the FRSC (through general consesus here). |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 06:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I can find bad and good in most things, but when the bad heavily outweighs the good, it's usually best to try to decrease the proliferation of the bad then try to just keep the status quo of the good.
Gothic Dan, I like your reply here. I agree, it is great to be able to find both good and bad in things, but even better to consentrate on the positives.
I have a co-worker who sits next to me at work.. and today I asked him what was wrong? he stated, "I am sitting here trying to make myself depressed".... he was having a good day |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 06:51:07
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Well, let's say something is, in one's opinion, 10% good and 90% bad. If you praise the good as equally as you critique the bad, it rather makes one think that in all actuality you were 50-50% with a product you were certainly not on.
But maybe I'm too logical about things; most people aren't. I prefer it when people slap me in the face with what they perceive to be my faults. An example - thanks to Winterfox for ripping apart my attempt at a short story - no sarcasm at all. It was my first attempt at writing actual fiction in years, and I see I am quite rusty, and was headed in the wrong direction! |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2006 : 15:08:58
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Well, let's say something is, in one's opinion, 10% good and 90% bad. If you praise the good as equally as you critique the bad, it rather makes one think that in all actuality you were 50-50% with a product you were certainly not on.
But maybe I'm too logical about things; most people aren't. I prefer it when people slap me in the face with what they perceive to be my faults. An example - thanks to Winterfox for ripping apart my attempt at a short story - no sarcasm at all. It was my first attempt at writing actual fiction in years, and I see I am quite rusty, and was headed in the wrong direction!
Indeed. Constructive criticism is good, because you can build from that. If you don't point out the less good, things will never improve. Just slating things has no point though. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2011 : 21:34:19
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| Races of Faerun |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jan 2011 : 08:33:13
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| Underdark, since I game almost exclusively there. Player's Guide to Faerun would be second (the lists of regional feats to which I often refer). |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 19:37:06
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for me it's Power of Faerun (except Inferno is useless)
I'd vote for Lords of Darkness but there's Cloak and Dagger
the nonhuman parts of Races of Faerun are not useful |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jan 2011 : 22:03:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
the nonhuman parts of Races of Faerun are not useful
I dunno about that... The genasi section gave me an idea when I really needed one, and I like the fey'ri section, as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 01:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
the nonhuman parts of Races of Faerun are not useful
Granted, it does have errors, but I think coupling this section with past edition resources, like Demihumans of the Realms, makes RoF a considerable source of Realmslore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2011 : 09:48:53
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It's the way I play these races, elves are like in mythology, not everywhere, there's a sense of awe when you see them, dwarves as well. Gnomes, only one type are interesting, the inventors. Orcs are obvious, why waste pages on them, halflings are hobbits. The planetouched are solitary creatures and adapt to the culture they are raised in. Fey'ri are in Cloak and Dagger.
Tough the races from UE, Undardark and Champions of Ruin are far more useless. |
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most useful forgotten realms sourcebook
