Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Realmslore
 Sages of Realmslore
 The Hakhaeshar
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 2

Echon
Senior Scribe

Denmark
422 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2003 :  14:59:30  Show Profile  Visit Echon's Homepage  Send Echon an ICQ Message Send Echon a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
or however it is spelled, is described in BGII as the more powerful version of the Nishruu (detailed in FRCS). Is it related to the Nishruu and in which product is it described?

-Echon

"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."

-William Blake

MidNight
Seeker

Netherlands
43 Posts

Posted - 19 Mar 2003 :  15:11:46  Show Profile  Visit MidNight's Homepage Send MidNight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I remember it being mentioned in The Avatar Trilogy, accompanying Bane, if I'm correct. It has been a while since i've read the trilogy so forgive me if I'm wrong.
Now, I don't know much about the Nishruu, but I've checked the Monstrous Supplement and it's appearance is much the same. The only difference in the way it looks is the colour, for I believe the Nishruu is a red mist, where the other is a green mist. Or am I saying ridiculous things?

Love magic for itself. Do not treat it just as a weapon to reshape the world to your will. True wisdom is knowing when not to use magic. Strive to use magic less as your powers develop, for often the threat or promise of its use outstrips is actual performance. Magic is an Art, the Gift of the Lady, and those who wield it are privileged it the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly, while being mindful of this. Use the Art deftly and efficiently, not carelessly and recklessly. Seek always to learn and create new magic.
Go to Top of Page

Targon Moonrise
Learned Scribe

163 Posts

Posted - 20 Mar 2003 :  23:31:22  Show Profile  Visit Targon Moonrise's Homepage  Click to see Targon Moonrise's MSN Messenger address Send Targon Moonrise a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Bane did summon one to syphon Mystra's magic and give part to himself. It said that it was a red mist with hundreds of eyes and mouthes.It love to eat magic and has the ability to give some of the eaten magic to another persob/creature. But they are very bad to summon because they might go after the summoner.

May Melkor smile upon every spell you cast.
Go to Top of Page

zemd
Master of Realmslore

France
1103 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2003 :  15:09:46  Show Profile Send zemd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MidNight

Or am I saying ridiculous things?



Not at all, it's true. In monsters of faerun, they assume they have the same abilities
Go to Top of Page

MidNight
Seeker

Netherlands
43 Posts

Posted - 22 Mar 2003 :  20:09:51  Show Profile  Visit MidNight's Homepage Send MidNight a Private Message  Reply with Quote
MidNight lets out a sigh full of relief

Fortunately I was making sense. I didn't have the possibility to check, so thank you for your adding your knowledge, Targon and zemd.
Now, Enchon, are you satisfied or isn't this the information you were looking for? Good luck with your quest in finding out

Love magic for itself. Do not treat it just as a weapon to reshape the world to your will. True wisdom is knowing when not to use magic. Strive to use magic less as your powers develop, for often the threat or promise of its use outstrips is actual performance. Magic is an Art, the Gift of the Lady, and those who wield it are privileged it the extreme. Conduct yourself humbly, not proudly, while being mindful of this. Use the Art deftly and efficiently, not carelessly and recklessly. Seek always to learn and create new magic.
Go to Top of Page

George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5701 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2003 :  02:30:20  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The Hakhaeshar is the southern version of the Balhir and first noted in the Ol' Grey Box (as a rumor) which was repeated in FR10 Old Empires.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2018 :  19:56:57  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Krashos,

FR10 identifies the The Hakhaeshar as being from an Alternative Prime Material Plane. Do you think that is essentially an indication that it is a crossover from Abeir, to Toril? An interesting thing to consider. Thoughts?

Best regards,




quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

The Hakhaeshar is the southern version of the Balhir and first noted in the Ol' Grey Box (as a rumor) which was repeated in FR10 Old Empires.

-- George Krashos



Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2018 :  20:34:20  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
FR10 very much predates the idea of Abeir and Toril being separate worlds. That was a retcon introduced with the advent of 4E.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
673 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2018 :  01:47:08  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric and I did a version of the balhiir in our Realms Bestiary, Vol. 1 (3e) http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/monsters.html.
Go to Top of Page

TomCosta
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
673 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2018 :  02:04:45  Show Profile Send TomCosta a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I found it. The hakeashar is detailed in the 2E City of Splendors box set (and apparently the FRE1 Shadowdale module) and is in fact related to the nishruu, which gets some 3E love in Monsters of Faerun (along with a mention of the hakeashar in In the Realms.
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1956 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2018 :  04:30:56  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's almost exactly Nishruu, except has 1/2 speed, but isn't harmed by salt or spells that would somewhat hurt a Nishruu before being eaten.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2018 :  05:01:34  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Rupert,

Thank you for the reply on that! I do have a question though for you: how does the 4th edition retcon square with the Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves (1999) and James/Greenwood's release of the The Grand History of the Realms (September 2007), both of which were released prior to the playtest of 4th edition announced in December 2007 and the edition being released officially in June 2008?

As always, thank you for your time.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

FR10 very much predates the idea of Abeir and Toril being separate worlds. That was a retcon introduced with the advent of 4E.


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  07:32:42  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good evening all,

Bumping some unanswered questions from a little while ago.

Anyone have insight as to the question I posed last on 25 Sep 18?

Best regards,


Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1490 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  15:18:42  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cpthero2

Master Rupert,

Thank you for the reply on that! I do have a question though for you: how does the 4th edition retcon square with the Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet: Island of Elves (1999) and James/Greenwood's release of the The Grand History of the Realms (September 2007), both of which were released prior to the playtest of 4th edition announced in December 2007 and the edition being released officially in June 2008?

As always, thank you for your time.

Best regards,



quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

FR10 very much predates the idea of Abeir and Toril being separate worlds. That was a retcon introduced with the advent of 4E.





There is no contradiction in lore. The twinning of Abeir and Toril is hinted at in the Great History (see the entry in -31000 DR), which means that when they wrote the book, they already were playing with that concept.

As for Elaine's book, her stories happen millennia after that event, so both are unrelated.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  15:44:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

There is no contradiction in lore. The twinning of Abeir and Toril is hinted at in the Great History (see the entry in -31000 DR), which means that when they wrote the book, they already were playing with that concept.




From the OGB, page 19 of the Cyclopedia of the Realms:

quote:
ABEIR-TORIL (Ai-BEER-toh-RILL)
AT A GLANCE: Abeir-toril, more commonly called Toril, is the name of the orb that Faerun and the Forgotten Realms is set upon, just as Earth is the Orb that Eurasia is set upon. The name is archaic, meaning "Cradle of Life," and is rarely used in everyday life.

ELMINSTER'S NOTES: Abeir-Toril is an Earth-sized planet dominated by a large continent in its northern hemisphere as well as a number of other large landmasses scattered about its surface. This northern continent is called Faerun in the west and Kara-Tur in the east, and it is the primary purpose of this tome to deal with the western portion of this huge landmass, in particular that region between the Sword Coast and the Inner Sea.

Abeir-Toril has a single satellite, called Selune (which is also the name of the goddess of the night sky and navigation). This Moon-sized body is followed in its path across the sky by a collection of shining shards, called "the tears of Selune." What these tears are is unknown, yet they remain reflective and bright even when the moon is new in the sky.


From the first days of the published Realms, Abeir-Toril was one world. Everything regarding it being two worlds that were split apart is a retcon.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 08 Feb 2020 15:45:04
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1490 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  16:20:40  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A retcon, yes. But there is no contradiction to previous lore. Because that statement is written in-universe by a character that didn't know the whole picture back them.
As Ed Greenwood himself said quite recently, he wrote all Realmslore through the lens of an unreliable narrator, so that is not a "written-in-stone" hard fact of unchangeable canon.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  16:52:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

A retcon, yes. But there is no contradiction to previous lore. Because that statement is written in-universe by a character that didn't know the whole picture back them.
As Ed Greenwood himself said quite recently, he wrote all Realmslore through the lens of an unreliable narrator, so that is not a "written-in-stone" hard fact of unchangeable canon.




When multiple previous sources speak of one planet, and then there's suddenly two, that's a contradiction to previous lore.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1490 Posts

Posted - 08 Feb 2020 :  18:51:58  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I guess you don't understand the concept of "retcon". There is no previous lore saying that's absolutely impossible for a parallel planet to exist. Just sources saying what people of a time period knew about the matter (and we reading them through the lenses of an unreliable narrator so we cannot believe all sources are absolute truths).

And the fact that a planet is named "Abeir-Toril" doesn't preclude another for being named "Abeir". There is a region here in my country named "Armenia", and in no way it negates or diminishes the existence of the European country of the same name.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  00:04:51  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

I guess you don't understand the concept of "retcon". There is no previous lore saying that's absolutely impossible for a parallel planet to exist. Just sources saying what people of a time period knew about the matter (and we reading them through the lenses of an unreliable narrator so we cannot believe all sources are absolute truths).

And the fact that a planet is named "Abeir-Toril" doesn't preclude another for being named "Abeir". There is a region here in my country named "Armenia", and in no way it negates or diminishes the existence of the European country of the same name.



I understand quite well what a retcon is. We're discussing one right now.

Original lore says there's one planet, named Abeir-Toril. Later lore said there's two planets, named Abeir and Toril. That's a retcon.

It's not the existence of a parallel planet that's a problem, it's the thing of "this one planet that has a two-part name is actually two planets, each with part of that two-part name."

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 09 Feb 2020 00:07:23
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1490 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  01:40:06  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the name is the problem, as far as I know, there is no source saying that Abeir-Toril is not the name of the original planet. As I said, that a planet named Abeir exist out there doesn't forbids Abeir-Toril to be named that way...

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  02:22:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

If the name is the problem, as far as I know, there is no source saying that Abeir-Toril is not the name of the original planet. As I said, that a planet named Abeir exist out there doesn't forbids Abeir-Toril to be named that way...



But that's not what's said. We have three versions of the FRCS saying "one planet, named Abeir-Toril" and then the fourth one saying "Abeir is one planet, and Toril is another." What was always one planet suddenly became two. That's a retcon.

If they'd said there was another planet out there, that was not and never was a part of the other, but had been hidden all this time -- that's a different story. It would have been the easier route for them, and it wouldn't have been a retcon. But that's not the way they went -- instead they opted to ignore everything that had come before and say that all the prior material was invalid.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2020 :  17:25:49  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Master Zeromaru X,

Ironically, as I was digging through some other tomes here, I found this gem which includes comments from both yourself and Master Rupert. It appears to be the most relevant, and answers the question the best, coming right from Jeff Grubb as the source of naming in this case. Though, if I am wrong, please do correct me!


From "What is still left...":

quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander

I've gotta ask a noob question here... what exactly is "Abeir"? And what does it mean? Diference betweene Abeir- Toril and Toril?

Sorry for the noobish question!
__________________________


Here's the relevant quote from Jeff Grubb, the original traffic cop of the Realms:

quote:
A lot of my regulars were immortalized in one way or the other in stuff that I have written over the years. The name of my old campaign, I mentioned, was Toril, which became the name of the Forgotten Realms' planet. Ansalon's planet, Krynn, was named after my sister-in-law, Corrine.

Faerun was the name of the continent Ed's original campaign was set on, but Ed had no name for the planet itself. I looted the name Toril from my own campaign for the world. When we did the original grey box, we did all the entries in alphabetical order. It made sense to put something about the world itself FIRST, so I tacked on the Abeir title before it so it world fall at the beginning of the catalog.

I remember mentioning elsewhere that the Abeir-Toril title means "cradle of life" in an archaic tongue. While I never stated which was which, I always assumed that "toril" was the word for life and "abeir" was the word for originator, cradle, or home.

Finally, as a note, Toril was not my original name for my campaign back in '75 - it was Toricandra, influenced by CS Lewis. Toril quickly became the shorthand I used, and eventually took over entirely.


So Abeir-Toril and Toril originally meant the same thing: the world the Realms was on. Toril saw a lot more use than Abeir-Toril, though, and in most places where the planet is mentioned, it's just called Toril.

The whole thing about Abeir being its own separate world is one of the retcons of 4E. Before 4E, there wasn't even a hint about Abeir being a separate world -- it was just an archaic name for the same world that the Realms was on.
_____________________________

Additionally, Explorer Markustay offers the following:

Since the question asked was "what did the Abeirans call it?", then Laerakond is applicable. Abeir was a different world, and by default, a different setting.

I posed this question to Richard baker as well, and he thought it was kind of weird that no 'real' name was ever given for the land - certainly the inhabitants wouldn't be calling it 'Returned Abeir'. He said to go ask Ed Greenewood.

When I quoted Ed's response to the question, Rich said something to the order of "I'd go with Laerakond', and that was that. He's an official designer, and that statement was made on the WotC site, in the "Ask the designers" thread. So while it is technically true that it is not 100% canon, it is as close as something can come without being actual canon.

If you want, you could just as easily say the surviving Mazticans (since obviously RA could NOT have replaced the whole thing) named it Laerakond (which in there language means "where the hell did that come from?"), and the Faerunians call it Tarathdeon (which in Evermeet Elven means "damned if I know").
____________________________

It seems that the original version of Abeir-Toril as one planet is held as official by the original creation/naming by Jeff Grubb, as The Old Mage, as you can see consistent references to Abeir-Toril and then just Toril as the same place all throughout 'Elves of Evermeet' as just one example.

The elephant in the room of course is the marketing department of WotC pushing an agenda designed to increase market size by generating an easier way for younger folk to enter the Realms setting without a perceived and daunting necessity of going through all of this lore we are talking about now. They could just enter after that dang 100 year disruption and not have to worry about all of that pesky lore from before.

Great discussion. Thanks all!

Best regards,




Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Zeromaru X
Master of Realmslore

Colombia
1490 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  01:30:01  Show Profile Send Zeromaru X a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, this is why it's a retcon (the addition of a new concept, that it's assumed as something that was always there). But as I said to Wooly, there is no contradiction, as there is nothing in previous lore saying that there is no way a parallel planet existed out there.

Long ago, in the distant past, they fell into decay. The philosopher’s path... The river of glory... Even the saints resting in the darkness rise up without response and block the way...
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2020 :  01:47:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X

Well, this is why it's a retcon (the addition of a new concept, that it's assumed as something that was always there). But as I said to Wooly, there is no contradiction, as there is nothing in previous lore saying that there is no way a parallel planet existed out there.



And as I've said, it's not the parallel planet that is the issue -- though it is hard to explain with the fact that we know what all is in Realmspace. It's the fact that we have repeated references to ONE planet named Abeir-Toril, and then suddenly we're told "no, it's actually two planets, one named Abeir and one named Toril."

That is a contradiction.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

cpthero2
Senior Scribe

USA
629 Posts

Posted - 15 Feb 2020 :  21:36:24  Show Profile  Visit cpthero2's Homepage Send cpthero2 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good afternoon gentleman,

As a lesser ranked individual here, and looking for fantastic solutions, I wanted to know how you both would resolve this issue? I clearly see that there are two different opinions. However, is it literally an unsolvable situation, or is there a process that you are both familiar with that ultimately derive an answser?

As I was confused about the ongoing impasse, I looked up the definitions of the seeming two points of contention: retcon and contradiction. I've included them below.

My curiosity led me to see if actual definitions, presented here, in front of all parties would lead to another look at the material, and a possible singular outcome. I feel it would be valuable to especially newer visitors to the 'Keep to see how answers, utilizing definitive metrics, i.e. definitions, quantification, inductive analysis, and qualified analysis, can be achieved by a Master of Mischief and a Master of Realmslore.
________________________

Retcon (Retroactive Continuity)

quote:
noun
noun: retcon; plural noun: retcons; noun: ret-con; plural noun: ret-cons
(in a film, television series, or other fictional work) a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events, typically used to facilitate a dramatic plot shift or account for an inconsistency.
"we're given a retcon for Wilf's absence from Donna's wedding in ‘The Runaway Bride’: he had Spanish Flu"

verb
verb: retcon; 3rd person present: retcons; past tense: retconned; past participle: retconned; gerund or present participle: retconning; verb: ret-con; 3rd person present: ret-cons; past tense: ret-conned; past participle: ret-conned; gerund or present participle: ret-conning
revise (an aspect of a fictional work) retrospectively, typically by introducing a piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events.
"I think fans get more upset when characters act blatantly out of established type, or when things get retconned"

_________________

Contradiction

quote:
noun
noun: contradiction; plural noun: contradictions
a combination of statements, ideas, or features of a situation that are opposed to one another.
"the proposed new system suffers from a set of internal contradictions"
a person, thing, or situation in which inconsistent elements are present.
"the paradox of using force to overcome force is a real contradiction"
the statement of a position opposite to one already made.
"the second sentence appears to be in flat contradiction of the first"

_________________

Best regards as always,




Robert McDonell
Higher Atlar
Spirit Soaring
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
32829 Posts

Posted - 16 Feb 2020 :  03:00:05  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A retcon can be a contradiction, as it is in this case: the new lore that there are two planets, one named Abeir and one named Toril, is a contradiction of the original lore that there was one planet named Abeir-Toril.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 2 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2020 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000