Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Laws of Waterdeep
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  

Bugoron_Bearfang
Seeker

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  23:22:10  Show Profile  Visit Bugoron_Bearfang's Homepage Send Bugoron_Bearfang a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I was curious and hoped to get some answers from those in authority about detailed laws for Waterdeep. I have read the laws in the sourcebook, but I was wondering if there is a list of more detailed laws somewhere, or that someone could relay to me. In specific, I would like to know Waterdeep's policy toward Tieflings (those who are discovered, as I realize measures can be taken to hide such a heritage), such as, for example, would a Tiefling who has been found in the city be left alone until they commit a crime, or would they instead be persecuted or even removed from the city because of what they are?

Thank you for you time. :)

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  23:34:53  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not yet that familiar with the new sourcebook, but in ye olde boxed-set, there was a whole bunch of laws/infractions and the punishment...

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Bugoron_Bearfang
Seeker

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 29 May 2006 :  23:40:19  Show Profile  Visit Bugoron_Bearfang's Homepage Send Bugoron_Bearfang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The 3.5 version of 'City of Splendours' covers things such as assault, thievery, the general stuff that could found in a modern day list of laws, but, for example, it is obvious that there are laws against Orc and Drow entering the city, which is not covered. It is those types of laws that I seek. Are those in the set that you mentioned? :)

Edited by - Bugoron_Bearfang on 29 May 2006 23:40:35
Go to Top of Page

scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  00:04:08  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
the 2E version of the city of splendors is a great resource for laws on waterdeep. I believe it is even more detailed that what is offered in the 3E sourcebook

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien
Go to Top of Page

Bugoron_Bearfang
Seeker

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  00:17:27  Show Profile  Visit Bugoron_Bearfang's Homepage Send Bugoron_Bearfang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Would Tieflings be covered in 2nd Ed. resource though? :\ either way, I'll look into finding that, thank you very much :)
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  00:17:44  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang

The 3.5 version of 'City of Splendours' covers things such as assault, thievery, the general stuff that could found in a modern day list of laws, but, for example, it is obvious that there are laws against Orc and Drow entering the city, which is not covered. It is those types of laws that I seek. Are those in the set that you mentioned? :)



Not so much no, since they are monsters and most people/the Watch/the Guard/etc, would just kill most of them on sight.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4358 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  00:40:09  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well not sure of kill on sight, but indeed races not known (and clearly presented as such, Drow disguiesed as fair elves live in no Drow cities) would need to prove they are not monsters or agents againts Waterdeep. There appears to be some flexablity here, futher the Lords of Waterdeep and others clearly can have encountered Tieflings and formed an opinion of then concerning security risks. I do not picture Waterdeep a kill on sight type of city of even the vile Drow, willt prevent them from entry by normal means in most cases. A strange creature to the rank and file Watch oe Guard should not evoke an imediate attack, wheb strange creature appears not to be endangering the city or people within it. Such creatues would be watched, questioned and perhaps referred up the chain of command. At least IMO, in part based on what Ed has said about Waterdeep and its laws and in part how I would have my city deal with strange creatures.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:11:04  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ed has said that drow are kill on sight in Waterdeep and in most of the "good" cities because they are feared and are considered monsters. Even in Waterdeep they are openly disliked and feared.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 30 May 2006 01:19:24
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:11:57  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang

Would Tieflings be covered in 2nd Ed. resource though? :\ either way, I'll look into finding that, thank you very much :)

Tieflings are covered in 2e. They were included in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I.

Kuje's Edit: I hit that darn edit command again. :(



Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - Kuje on 30 May 2006 01:34:45
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4358 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:22:47  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed has said that drow are kill on sight in Waterdeep and in most of the "good" cities because they are feared and are considered monsters.



This is true, that Drow a known foe had a kill on sight order, the question was more about a race not seen before and indentified as a kill on sight. Of course there might be a rule of kill on sight and devil/demon form that I missed. There also is the aceptted (Ed says) that Drow live in no Drow cities and rerritorioes, sometimes looking like fair elves. It clearly is left more open as to if very sun tanned fair elves have been allowed though city gates, clearly Drow was at least one time permitted to enter Silverymoon, though did not enter though the city gates.

There also appears to be hints of trade between fair elves and Drow, though these might occur in mannor houses that exist in the broders of controled teritories.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:26:13  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang

Would Tieflings be covered in 2nd Ed. resource though? :\ either way, I'll look into finding that, thank you very much :)

Tieflings are covered in 2e. They were included in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium Appendix I.



And the Planewalkers Handbook for the charts. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:28:16  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed has said that drow are kill on sight in Waterdeep and in most of the "good" cities because they are feared and are considered monsters.



the question was more about a race not seen before and indentified as a kill on sight.


Ah what? I specifically answered the posters question about drow, which he asked in this thread and I didn't answer his post about a race that wouldn't be known in Waterdeep.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:32:21  Show Profile  Visit Wandering_mage's Homepage Send Wandering_mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I could have sworn I found a table for criminal acts and the appropriate punishment either on a Waterdeep webpage or in one of the free downloads at WotC. I'll post again if I remember.

Illum
The Wandering Mage
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4358 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  01:49:36  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Ed has said that drow are kill on sight in Waterdeep and in most of the "good" cities because they are feared and are considered monsters.



the question was more about a race not seen before and indentified as a kill on sight.


Ah what? I specifically answered the posters question about drow, which he asked in this thread and I didn't answer his post about a race that wouldn't be known in Waterdeep.



*sighs*

Tieflings , perhaps there is a law to kill them on sight, but none I know of.

Also it is well known Drow have traveled the streets of Waterdeep and if I recall correctly some were not disquised as fair elves. I also know Drow have been in kill Drow on sight cities. Rare prehaps and often a mistake, however the Watch and Guard clearly do not maintain sucure broders or interior.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  02:02:07  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

*sighs*

Tieflings , perhaps there is a law to kill them on sight, but none I know of.

Also it is well known Drow have traveled the streets of Waterdeep and if I recall correctly some were not disquised as fair elves. I also know Drow have been in kill Drow on sight cities. Rare prehaps and often a mistake, however the Watch and Guard clearly do not maintain sucure broders or interior.



Except, again, I wasn't talking about tieflings since the reply that I replied to was about drow.

And I repeat, Ed has said that drow are feared and openly disliked in Waterdeep. Now there are some half-drow that do walk openly in Waterdeep but usually drow do not.

So, I'm not sure, exactly, why you are arguing this with me because again, I didn't mention tieflings at all in my posts except for the Planewalker's Handbook post.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Edited by - Kuje on 30 May 2006 02:03:19
Go to Top of Page

Bugoron_Bearfang
Seeker

Canada
16 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  02:07:48  Show Profile  Visit Bugoron_Bearfang's Homepage Send Bugoron_Bearfang a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

Well not sure of kill on sight, but indeed races not known (and clearly presented as such, Drow disguiesed as fair elves live in no Drow cities) would need to prove they are not monsters or agents againts Waterdeep. There appears to be some flexablity here, futher the Lords of Waterdeep and others clearly can have encountered Tieflings and formed an opinion of then concerning security risks. I do not picture Waterdeep a kill on sight type of city of even the vile Drow, willt prevent them from entry by normal means in most cases. A strange creature to the rank and file Watch oe Guard should not evoke an imediate attack, wheb strange creature appears not to be endangering the city or people within it. Such creatues would be watched, questioned and perhaps referred up the chain of command. At least IMO, in part based on what Ed has said about Waterdeep and its laws and in part how I would have my city deal with strange creatures.



I've highlighted a point that I'd like to elaborate on. In that instance, were the Tiefling to refuse to cooperate and seek to not allow the Watch to, well, watch him, or question him, would he then be perceived as a threat? If so, what, then, would be the proper procedure in dealing with them?

Edited by - Bugoron_Bearfang on 30 May 2006 02:09:35
Go to Top of Page

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  02:23:25  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bugoron_Bearfang

I've highlighted a point that I'd like to elaborate on. In that instance, were the Tiefling to refuse to cooperate and seek to not allow the Watch to, well, watch him, or question him, would he then be perceived as a threat? If so, what, then, would be the proper procedure in dealing with them?



I'd say if he would be perceived as a threat, aye. After that, the guardians of Waterdeep would probably shadow him/her or used magic to track his/her if the tiefling stayed in the city. If the tiefling caused more problems, then he/she would be arrested or taking before one of the Magisters.

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
Go to Top of Page

Vainelus
Seeker

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  16:06:03  Show Profile  Visit Vainelus's Homepage  Send Vainelus an AOL message Send Vainelus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The kill on sight races still enter Waterdeep in disguise from Skullport via Undermountain.

Also even the second edition source book does not cover specific races that are not permitted in the city, you will have to read Ed's post and trust you DM instincts for that answer.

On a related point, if the watch tolerate half-drow, it is likely that they would also extend the same courteous to a tiefling. Also depending on what features the tielfing has it maybe very difficult to identify him at a glance see ROF for what the options are. For instance, a tielfing player in my game selected fangs and throws no reflection both of which can be reasonably easily concealed from a guard unless the tielfing. Also, if anything he was far more likely to be identified as a vampire than a tielfing, which would only get him killed faster by the guards. However, aside from the party members and Npcs that were encounter several times few people thought realized he wasnít human.
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31827 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2006 :  17:13:07  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I doubt a tiefling would attract a lot of attention. There's a great many people of many races in Waterdeep, so while a tiefling would stand out, I don't think they'd pay much attention to him unless he walked up to the gates munching on a roast halfing.

If his appearance was particularly demonic/frightening, they might follow him, but I don't think much more than that would happen.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore

5055 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  02:53:27  Show Profile  Visit The Hooded One's Homepage Send The Hooded One a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bugoron, regarding how the Watch would treat someone, please refer to "The Night Tymora Sneezed" on the WotC website (last year's Spin A Yarn), his Watch columns in the Realmslore WotC website columns, and his short story in REALMS OF THE DRAGONS. Those, plus the 2nd Edition CITY OF SPLENDORS boxed set already recommended to you, should cover it.
love,
THO
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31827 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  03:59:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
'Tis a multi-part tale our Lovely Lady references... Luckily, all of it can be accessed from one page:
The Night Tymora Sneezed.

As for the Watch Realmslore columns, they can be found here:
The City Watch of Waterdeep, Part One
The City Watch of Waterdeep, Part Two

And you can, of course, find all of Ed's Realmslore columns by checking out the Realmslore Archive.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

ErskineF
Learned Scribe

USA
330 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2019 :  03:40:53  Show Profile  Visit ErskineF's Homepage Send ErskineF a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In the Dragon Heist Adventure, there is a summary of the legal code of Waterdeep. It states there that the punishment for "murder with justification" is "exile up to 5 years or hard labor up to 3 years or damages up to 1,000 gp paid to the victimís kin."

What exactly does murder with justification mean in this context?

One would think that killing someone who is trying to kill you should not be a punishable offense. Is killing someone in self-defense just not considered murder? If so, then what is "murder with justification?"

--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31827 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2019 :  04:21:43  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF

In the Dragon Heist Adventure, there is a summary of the legal code of Waterdeep. It states there that the punishment for "murder with justification" is "exile up to 5 years or hard labor up to 3 years or damages up to 1,000 gp paid to the victimís kin."

What exactly does murder with justification mean in this context?

One would think that killing someone who is trying to kill you should not be a punishable offense. Is killing someone in self-defense just not considered murder? If so, then what is "murder with justification?"




Perhaps it's a case where a person murders another who has committed violent acts in the past and is going to continue, but isn't currently committing one. As in, someone suffering from physical abuse, or who has a loved one suffering from physical abuse, and who kills the abuser in their sleep.

Or, even simpler, someone murdering another over a one-time violent act, like the rape of a loved one. The original violent act is over and done with, but that person is still slain after the fact by someone close to the victim.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!

Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Jan 2019 04:24:42
Go to Top of Page

AJA
Learned Scribe

USA
121 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2019 :  04:27:03  Show Profile Send AJA a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF

Is killing someone in self-defense just not considered murder? If so, then what is "murder with justification?"


I don't know, but they are apparently two separate things:

<sageadvice.eu/2018/11/01/does-waterdeep-view-a-difference-between-murder-with-justification-and-killing-in-self-defence/>
@TheEdVerse Does Waterdeep view a difference between Murder with Justification and killing in self-defence? My players are going to trial next session.

Oh, yes. The circumstances of a death make no difference at all to the charge (aside from not laying it at all), but a great deal of difference to the sentence. A self-defense slaying is usually a tenday exile and minor fine (basically paying the court's time, so 20-50gp), or a minor fine payment to the family/dependents of the slain. The magister/Black Robe may add a decree like "Avoid such-and-such a street for the next month," or "drinking too much" or "having public disputes with so-and-so or in such-and-such a place" to minimize chances of a feud or recurrence.


AJA
YAFRP

Edited by - AJA on 16 Jan 2019 04:30:45
Go to Top of Page

ErskineF
Learned Scribe

USA
330 Posts

Posted - 16 Jan 2019 :  05:11:34  Show Profile  Visit ErskineF's Homepage Send ErskineF a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AJA

quote:
Originally posted by ErskineF

Is killing someone in self-defense just not considered murder? If so, then what is "murder with justification?"


I don't know, but they are apparently two separate things:

<sageadvice.eu/2018/11/01/does-waterdeep-view-a-difference-between-murder-with-justification-and-killing-in-self-defence/>
@TheEdVerse Does Waterdeep view a difference between Murder with Justification and killing in self-defence? My players are going to trial next session.

Oh, yes. The circumstances of a death make no difference at all to the charge (aside from not laying it at all), but a great deal of difference to the sentence. A self-defense slaying is usually a tenday exile and minor fine (basically paying the court's time, so 20-50gp), or a minor fine payment to the family/dependents of the slain. The magister/Black Robe may add a decree like "Avoid such-and-such a street for the next month," or "drinking too much" or "having public disputes with so-and-so or in such-and-such a place" to minimize chances of a feud or recurrence.





Thanks for the reply, AJA.

This has come up due to a fight the players had with a group of four bad guys in which two of the bad guys were killed (mainly, because the rules don't allow players to subdue a foe with a ranged weapon).

They're trying to decide whether to inform the guard about the fight. They rescued a person who would testify on their behalf, but if they told the truth they would have to admit to entering the building where they rescued him illegally.They would also have to admit to firing the first shot, although they did offer the bad guys a chance to surrender and only fired when the bad guys began to arm themselves.

The bad guys are also members of a CN race (Kenku), which goes back to the original discussion. I'm not sure how much protection the law gives to such creatures.

I would like to give the players some guidance on what they can expect. Two of them are not very experienced, and none of them have played in an adventure where the law is a big presence.

--
Erskine Fincher
http://forgotten-realms.wandering-dwarf.com/index.php
Go to Top of Page
  Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2019 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000