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Archwizard
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  04:13:25  Show Profile  Visit Archwizard's Homepage  Send Archwizard an AOL message Send Archwizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Were there shield dwarven wizards in 2e?

This was an interesting topic that came up on the WotC boards. Back in the days of 2e, by standard AD&D rules, Dwarves could not be wizards or arcane casters. It was explained as a combination of their natural resistance to spells and their more martial and divine magic based culture that prevented them from taking up the Art. It was brought up in the discussion that FR had a few Gold Dwarf wizards, which is not unexpected seeing as FR broke several of the old AD&D race/class restrictions (non-neutral bards, non-human paladins, etc.)

With 3e, dwarven wizards are not a problem, but it would be nice if any potential dwarven arcane tradition could be tied back to something in the old lore.

scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  04:17:49  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
2E rules prohibited dwarves from being spell casters, except for clerics/ priests. Dwarves even had a chance of failure when using a magical item that was not weapon or armor related.

The thunder blessing was the bridge for this issue, from 2E to 3E

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien

Edited by - scererar on 26 May 2006 04:20:23
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  04:29:36  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, there was a few dwarven wizards in 2e. :) But it was rare.

Behring, 3rd Wizard, Male Dwarf, CN, Lives in Daggerford. One of the rare dwarves that can wield magic, The North: Daggerford

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  04:36:24  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
yes very rare, not the norm, and the thunder blessing bridged this issue at the transition between 2E and 3E. from what I remember, the rules did not allow these "rare" dwarven wizrads, but a few came about from sourcebooks and other periodicals throughout the the years of 2E.

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  05:45:32  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Don't forget the option Steven put into The Lost Level adventure that would allow anyone to become a dwarf and retain their skills. As I recall, that was one of the weirder ways in 2e to allow for dwarven wizards...


-- The adventure, BTW, is available for free download at WotC:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Edited by - The Sage on 26 May 2006 05:49:10
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Vainelus
Seeker

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2006 :  17:49:27  Show Profile  Visit Vainelus's Homepage  Send Vainelus an AOL message Send Vainelus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dwarves still do not have a strong tradition of arcane magic in the Realms even in 3rd edition. Dwarves still generally distrust arcane magic, and are more comfortable with divine casters. The rules simply provide for the possibility of dwarven arcane casters now. The only mention of a dwarven arcane tradition being developed that I know of is in the LEoF. Xothol was a dwarven college of wizardry designed to counter the growing power of the Netherese. However, once Nethril fell the dwarves no longer fell it was necessary to pursue arcane studies on such a large scale. This info is located on page 87.
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2006 :  02:15:21  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
races of Faerun states basically the same for both gold and shield dwarves

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe

USA
758 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2006 :  16:35:00  Show Profile  Visit hammer of Moradin's Homepage Send hammer of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In one of my Candlekeep Compendium (see link in my sig), I explore the Thunder Blessing, and dwarven wizards. The young seem to be setting the new traditions with arcane magic, and since they are all relatively young, most of them have not had the time to establish schools and organizations. But! that does not mean they do not exist. Dwarves are nothing if not tenacious, and even the young wizards will have more than a few far-thinkers establishing organizations and schools for learning.
I can see the gold dwarves leading this push with the strict heirarchy they already have established in their society, while the shield dwarves would likely have a few 'rebels' taking on students here and there.
Remember, though, that in the North and Silver Marches, there are some pretty good schools of magic formed by the other races that would take on dwarven students. Just because it is not in the books yet, doesn't mean that one of the designers could not just drop it in somewhere and have it click on all levels. Especially since dwarves in particular are close-knit, and seldom share their lore with said designers (or is it that little is written about dwarves in general, hmmm....).

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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2006 :  19:12:26  Show Profile  Visit Wandering_mage's Homepage Send Wandering_mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually read that article and thought it was very informative. I definitely suggest that any one interested in the Dwarven use and study of arcane magic read the Candlekeep Compedium referenced by Hammer of Moradin. It even has what schools of magic the Dwarves favor.

Illum
The Wandering Mage
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hammer of Moradin
Senior Scribe

USA
758 Posts

Posted - 27 May 2006 :  22:41:55  Show Profile  Visit hammer of Moradin's Homepage Send hammer of Moradin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage

I actually read that article and thought it was very informative. I definitely suggest that any one interested in the Dwarven use and study of arcane magic read the Candlekeep Compedium referenced by Hammer of Moradin. It even has what schools of magic the Dwarves favor.



Thanks! Please, let me know which parts were of use, and any that were not. All the scribes of the Compendium value your feedback, and there is a scroll dedicated to such opinions on the same shelf as this scroll, the General Forgotten Realms Chat area.

Now, for my next article I thought about exploring the depths of dwarven evil, including that of dwarf necromancers!

"Hurling himself upon his enemies, he terrified them with slaughter!"

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium

Candlekeep proverb: If a thing is said often enough, fools aplenty will believe it to be true.
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Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe

688 Posts

Posted - 28 May 2006 :  02:35:45  Show Profile  Visit Wandering_mage's Homepage Send Wandering_mage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I actually have a Dwarf Necromancer in the game I am DM'ing. I told the player to read the Compendium that we have already referenced for some info. He was able to put together a backstory that involved him being kicked out of Mithral Hall and wandering about the Underdark. He also came into the apprenticeship of a drow Jergal worshipper. Anyways, I think the Dwarves need some serious emphasis to recover from the lack of attention. Hammer of Moradin, I wish you luck in your next article.

Illum
The Wandering Mage
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe

USA
266 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  00:27:57  Show Profile  Visit Archwizard's Homepage  Send Archwizard an AOL message Send Archwizard a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Continuing the discussion. Are Dwarves now biased against arcane magic due to cultural reasons or physiological ones? How was that handled in the Realms during 2e and before?
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31911 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  02:07:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Archwizard

Continuing the discussion. Are Dwarves now biased against arcane magic due to cultural reasons or physiological ones? How was that handled in the Realms during 2e and before?



In 2E, it was both. Magic was unreliable for dwarves in 2E, and given the dwarven attitudes towards skill and hard work, it's quite understandable that they'd tend to shun magic.

Now... That's a bit trickier. One of the things that bugs me about the way 3E was inflicted on the Realms was the way things were casually retconned with no explanation. Despite the fact that the Thunder Blessing was a perfect opportunity to explain why dwarven spellslingers were now possible, the official stance seems to be that the dwarven casters were always around -- which chucks the 2E "dwarves and magic don't mix" concept out the window. The Thunder Blessing could have easily, with just a sentence or two, explained it, but nowhere is it stated -- or even, so far as I can recall, implied -- that the Thunder Blessing had anything at all to do with dwarven magic.

So, from the standpoint of the current lore, dwarves don't have a problem with magic and never have had one. Races of Faerūn discusses their attitudes and preferences towards magic.

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AlacLuin
Learned Scribe

131 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  04:43:33  Show Profile  Visit AlacLuin's Homepage Send AlacLuin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now... That's a bit trickier. One of the things that bugs me about the way 3E was inflicted on the Realms was the way things were casually retconned with no explanation. Despite the fact that the Thunder Blessing was a perfect opportunity to explain why dwarven spellslingers were now possible, the official stance seems to be that the dwarven casters were always around -- which chucks the 2E "dwarves and magic don't mix" concept out the window. The Thunder Blessing could have easily, with just a sentence or two, explained it, but nowhere is it stated -- or even, so far as I can recall, implied -- that the Thunder Blessing had anything at all to do with dwarven magic.

So, from the standpoint of the current lore, dwarves don't have a problem with magic and never have had one. Races of Faerūn discusses their attitudes and preferences towards magic.



I think this is the way it worked, a dwarven wizard was rare.
So rare the core rules didn't allow it.
3.X comes around, and it is no longer fordibin.
In the Realms, dwarves have the thunder blessing, along with this is a new mindset that makes dwarven wizards less rare.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31911 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  05:16:46  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AlacLuin

I think this is the way it worked, a dwarven wizard was rare.
So rare the core rules didn't allow it.
3.X comes around, and it is no longer fordibin.
In the Realms, dwarves have the thunder blessing, along with this is a new mindset that makes dwarven wizards less rare.



But my beef with it, though, stems from the fact that in 2E, if a magical item was not dwarf- or class-specific, there was a good chance it would fail if a dwarf used it. And other than a couple of isolated cases, there were no dwarven mages. With the Thunder Blessing, they had the perfect chance to explain how an actively non-magical race could suddenly have arcane spellslingers. Instead, they spun it like they were always around...

I could buy the "rare beforehand" explanation if it was simply addressed somewhere. But it isn't -- so it's another of the "oh, it was always like this, but no one noticed" things.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31701 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2006 :  05:59:47  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I could buy the "rare beforehand" explanation if it was simply addressed somewhere. But it isn't -- so it's another of the "oh, it was always like this, but no one noticed" things.

Agreed.

It seems quite the stretch to suggest Dwarves have always pursued wizardry, even though no such specific mention of it occured until the designers gave us Bronia Stonesplitter.

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
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