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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 00:53:14
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A guy over at Enworld has managed to get his hands on PHB2
Brief class description
Knight: Lawful, honorable warrior. HD: d12, Skill: 2 pts, BAB: as Ftr , Good Save: Will (only), Other: Fighting Challenge, etc.
Beguiler: Rogue/Arcane hybrid. HD: d6, Skill: 6 pts, BAB: as Wiz, Good Save: Will, Spell: up to 9th, Other: Trapfinding, Cloaked Casting instead of Sneak attacks, etc.
Dragon shaman: a strange class. HD: d10, Skill: 2 pts, BAB: as Clr, Good Save: Fort & Will, Spell: none, Other: Draconic Auras., Breath, etc.
Duskblade: warrior/Arcane hybrid. HD: d8, Skill: 2 pts, BAB: as Ftr, Good Save: Fort & Will, Spell: up to 5th, Other: Arcane channeling, etc.
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*Classes
New: At a glance, they look “good,” may be even too good. Maybe for some taste, a little too specialized (especially flavor wise) for base class.
*Feats
Lots. I haven’t found any reprint.
*Races
No new races, I think. Actually, not much on races at all.
*Psionic
Zero, I think.
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Alternate Class Features
Barbarian: Level 1) Beserk Strength.
Bard: Level 1) Bardic Knack.
Cleric: Level 1) Spontaneous Domain Casting.
Druid: Level 1) Spontaneous Rejuvenation. / Level 1) Shapeshift.
Favored Soul: Level 3) Deity’s Favor.
Fighter: Lv 6) Elusive Attack./ Lv12) Counter Attack./ Lv 16) Overpowering Attack.
Hexblade: Lv 4) Dark Companion.
Marshal: Lv 4) Adrenaline Boost.
Monk: Lv1) Decisive Strike.
Paladin: Lv 5) Charging Smite.
Ranger: Lv 4) Distracting Attack.
Rogue: Lv 4) Disruptive Attack.
Scout: Lv 3) Dungeon Specialist.
Sorcerer: Lv 1) Metamagic Specialist.
Swashbuckler: Lv 5) Shield of Blades.
Warlock: Lv 8) Fiendish Flamewreath.
Warmage: Lv 3, 6, 11, or 16) Eclectic Learning.
Wizard: Lv 1) Immediate Magic.
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General Feats (A-B)
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Acrobatic Strike
Arcane Flourish
Arcane Accompaniment
Arcane Thesis
Arcane Toughness
Arcane Consumption
Armor Specialization
Battle Dancer
Bonded Familiar
Bounding Assault
Rapid Blitz
Brutal Strike
…continued
Ceremony Feats
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Ritual Blessing
Ritual Blood Bonds
Combat Form Feats
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Combat Focus
Combat Stability
Combat Defense
Combat Vigor
Combat Awareness
Combat Strike
Divine Feats
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Divine Armor
Divine Fortune
Divine Justice
Divine Ward
Profane Aura
Sacred Healing
Sacred Purification
Sacred Radiance
Heritage Feats
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Celestial Sorcerer Heritage
Celestial Sorcerer Aura
Celestial Sorcerer Lance
Celestial Sorcerer Wings
Celestial Sorcerer Lore
Infernal Sorcerer Heritage
Infernal Sorcerer Eyes
Infernal Sorcerer howl
Infernal Sorcerer Resistance
Metamagic Feats
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Blistering Spell
Earthbound Spell
Flash Frost Spell
Imbued Summoning
Smiting Spell
Tactical Feats
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Blood-Spiked Charger
Combat Cloak Expert
Combat Panache
Einhander
Mad Alchemist
Shadow Strike
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New Spells
Assassin: 2
Bard: 26
Beguiler: 19
Blackguard: 2
Cleric: 47
(no Domains)
Druid: 21
Duskblade: 25
Paladin: 6
Ranger: 7
Sor/Wiz: 102 (Maybe off by little, although I counted twice.)
(No Marshal’s aura, no Warlock’s Invocations.)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 01:14:46
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Okay, so why do we need a Knight class anyway? I mean, being a fighter or paladin until you can take Purple Dragon Knight or Cavalier, etc. doesn't seem like a bad way to go . . .
Beguiler . . . well, we have spelltheives, and in the Dragon Compendium we have Mountebanks . . . now we have another slightly different rogue/arcane thingy . . .
Dragon Shaman . . . again, didn't we cover this between the Spirit Shaman and the whoosits totem thing in Magic of Incarnum?
Duskblade . . . ::sigh:: hexblade? Can't we even use a different suffix?
Not leaning toward this one at the moment. I would have rather then went the DragonLance route and made up some characters like Master Craftsmen and mariners and the like.
At this rate, are we going to get Ragers (like barbarians except . . .) and skulkers (like rogues except . . . ). Heck, I thought the "excepts" were what substitution levels were all about. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 05:52:22
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WOTC Mike Mearls says the following
I think I can talk a bit about the design and development process that went into it.
The knight as mounted warrior doesn't really work in D&D. You can take a fighter, take the right mix of feats, throw on some platemail, and you have the mounted warrior rather well covered. There's not much point in duplicating something that feats already cover.
The knight character class goes for the knight as a warrior who fights for honor and glory. He's the guy who's most at home in heavy armor, standing at the front of the party, goading on the dragon to come get some. Sturm Brightblade from Dragonlance is, in my mind, a great example of how I wanted a (good-aligned) knight to feel and play. Sturm doesn't run away. He stands on the wall of the High Clerist's Tower even though he knows he's going to die. To him, honor is as important as the air he breathes. It's a tangible force that guides his life.
The key is that, so far, all of that stuff is good roleplay fodder, but it doesn't translate into mechanics. The knight class tries to take that concept and build rules that make playing a knight different from playing a fighter. A knight's adherence to a chivalric code builds within him mental strength and personal magnetism. When a knight draws his sword, looks an incoming orc berserker in the eye, and salutes his enemy, that raging orc can't help but make a salute back.
That's the story element we were looking for.
In terms of mechanic, the knight is the ultimate tank. He's the wall of steel that stands between his friends and his enemies. The entire good Will and bad Fortitude thing encapsulates him rather well. He fights with a force of spirit nested in devotion to his code of conduct. He excels at protecting his friends and forcing the toughest foes on the battlefield to seek him out and test their steel against him.
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 23:21:47
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More Knight
quote:
Knight
Class Features
W&A Prof.: Except Tower= like Pal.
Knight’s Challenge: The main feature. Cha-based. 6 different features at various Levels (like Bard music).
eg.) Fighting Challenge: The 1st Knight’s Challenge you get. Issue challenge against 1 opponent of roughly your caliber. You gain bonus to Will save, attack, and damage against him.
The Knight’s Code: If you violate it, you lose some use of Knight’s Challenge.
Mounted Combat: A Bonus feat.
Shield Block: Bonus to AC.
Bulwark of Defense: Make your threatened area difficult for your enemy.
Armor Mastery: Move faster in armor.
Bonus Feat: At l;evel 5, 10, 15, gain a Feat from a short list (10 feats). Half of the list is
Vigilant Defender: Prevent opponent’s Tumble.
Shield Ally/ Improved Shield Ally: Receive hit for other.
Impetuous Endurance: An 1 on a save is not auto failure.
Receives a lot of Special Features. Only “blank” level is 19th.
All of them are Ex).
He IS a mounted warrior, but the Mounted Combat feat is the only thing that he HAS to take.
Class Skills: 7. (Yes nobility&royalty, intimidate. No Diplomacy, Perform.)
Ex-Knight: If you become non-lawful, then you become Ex-.
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I think this is viable and interesting Class.
Although, I wish it had more Class Skills and/or Skill pts.
Having Poor Fort seem a little strange to me, but not a big deal. Probably done mainly for balance reason, but maybe good for variety, too.
(Maybe, what the problem is that there’s too much difference between Good and Poor save? But then again, personally, I’m not too keen on irregular BABs/saves.)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2006 : 23:39:21
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| A Frelling Paladin fights for Honor, and should be a PrC IMO. The core classes are getting (actually did for some time now) so tailiored to become inane. The barbarian should never have been a class, again IMO. Now we are faced with what 20 core classes, perhaps more? All that need to defeat foes for the bulk of becoming more powerful (i.e. gain a level). In some ways I think core clases should be based of the stats, well except Con, providing at best 5 core classes. All PCs tend to be thieves in the looting of forgotten places, some are better at fighting then others because of training they choose to select or learn just trying to survive. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 00:07:08
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| The Knights starting to looks alot like the old Cavalier class in some ways so I'd probably allow it in my campaign |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 04:14:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Now we are faced with what 20 core classes, perhaps more?
46, in the sources I have at hand, not counting class variants or substitution levels. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 04:24:16
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| Arivia, is that counting the ones that show up in the Dragon Compendium? Battledancer, Death Master, Jester, Mountebank, Savant, Sha'ir, and Urban Druid . . . |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 05:28:07
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| And that consolidated list does not include the Dragon Compendium list, although it does include the classes in the DragonLance Campaign book, and Mystic doesn't quite fit in the Realms, as well as all of the variants from UA and the substitution levels as well. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2006 : 06:26:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Arivia, is that counting the ones that show up in the Dragon Compendium? Battledancer, Death Master, Jester, Mountebank, Savant, Sha'ir, and Urban Druid . . .
So then we have 53.
Wooly: I've got that list bookmarked; it's patently useless due to the inclusion of the class variants from UA and every substitution level package. |
Edited by - Arivia on 30 Apr 2006 06:26:32 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 03:27:24
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You know, the more I think about this, the problem I have a lot of times aren't the specifics. The Knight class doesn't seem that bad, but its like every niche in the game now has a class attatched to it. Looking back, I didn't think that I had a problem with barbarian, but now that I am taking the long view, I think maybe we should have had a class more like a "raw power warrior" and a "skilled tactical warrior" rather than barbarian and fighter.
Part of the problem with Knight is that now, by virtue of taking a class, you have a certain social standing in the campaign. If you have a character in the Silver Marches or Cormyr, you are already assumed to have been trained by the Knights in Silver or a Purple Dragon Knight now, if you use this. I don't know, maybe it will grow on me. Classes with titles automatically inherant in them just seem to confuse things.
I am kind of glad that they are following up on the polymorph issue in here, even though I personally didn't have any polymorph issues. At least they used the next available, logical product to say "hey, if you want to have shapeshifting wizards, but you have had a problem with polymorph, here is an option."
The rebuilding part of the book is interesting, especially if you leave characters and come back to a campaign later, and want to tweak some things, since new rules and such might have come about in between. The only thing I worry about is since this is the PLAYERS HANDBOOK II, there might be kind of a feeling that they SHOULD get to rebuild their character when they want to, and not when the whole group and the DM decide to give it a whirl.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 03:58:06
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Heres how Id deal with it
Between Levels 1 through X (Where X is up to the DM) A character with levels of Knight is treated as a Squire or Knight Aspirant. Upon reaching level X depending on how generous the DM is a character gets the right to call himself Sir or Lady less generous DMs might issue a quest at level X which must be completed before the player can use Sir/Lady.
Ill probably hit poor up Ed for info on this at some point
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 05:36:02
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| I like Dargoth's solution to that. As for the reason for creating the knight class, while I wasn't part of the design team, my recollection is that there are a lot of players out there who like the glory, honor, and image that paladins have, without necessarily being a paragon of goodness, holiness, or faith. The knight offers you the possibility of a dashing warrior hero, without the ties to religion or even goodness. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 07:13:49
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| I decided to ask "he whose beard rivals a dwarves" for any Knight friendly FR groups or nations |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2006 : 14:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Part of the problem with Knight is that now, by virtue of taking a class, you have a certain social standing in the campaign. If you have a character in the Silver Marches or Cormyr, you are already assumed to have been trained by the Knights in Silver or a Purple Dragon Knight now, if you use this. I don't know, maybe it will grow on me. Classes with titles automatically inherant in them just seem to confuse things.
Not really. Knight is just the name of the class, not the characters automatic profession. I once played a Fighter 3/Barbarinan 2/Ranger 2/Rogue 2. She never referred to herself as Marisol the Fighter-Barbarian-Ranger-Rogue, just as a warrior.
The name of the class doesn’t have to be directly tied in to your characters profession or their view of themselves.
Knight has enough generic class features that even a peasant boy from the Dales can believe in honor and law enough so that they can pick up this class without having to be in a group that bestows the title of Knight on them.
The class is just named Knight so it doesn’t have to be called “Valorous Warrior of Honor” or something.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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A hard days Knight
