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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
503 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 02:51:41
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My last scroll got me thinking and of course I have more questions.
1. Those of you that are running a third edition campaign with the great wheel cosmology how do you run casters in different planes? I remember some of the old modules had rules depending on how many steps away you were from your home plane or from the plane of your deity. There were also keys that allowed casters to bypass this etc. There is no mention of this in The Manual to the Planes the closest thing I found was magic amplifying planes etc.
2. In 2nd edition the gods between campaign settings were the same correct? So when Ao threw the Faerunian gods down to Toril did they go missing in Greyhawk as well?
I'm not looking for the "correct" canon as of 3E just looking for data on how people run such things and opinion.
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The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 02:57:13
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No, Ao didn't have any authority over Greyspace, only over Toril and its crystal sphere. I mention those terms to point out part of how things were divided at that point in time.
Arcane spellcasters were not altered specifically going from one setting to another, unless the new prime that they travelled to was a lower or higher magic world. The 1st edition Manual of the Planes had some rules for how this worked, but Oerth, Krynn, and Toril were pretty much the same as far as arcane casters went.
In Spelljammer, there were spells that would let you temporarily contact your god so you could receive spells from them, if you were a divine caster. There were also spells that let you "make deals" with similar gods to grant your spells as long as you appeared to be one of their faithful. For example, a cleric of Tyr might "deal" with Kiri-Jolith from Krynn to appear as a cleric of Kiri-Jolith while the cleric was in Krynnspace.
In Planescape I beleive that there were spell keys that allowed you to stay in contact with your deity if you entered a plane that they normally didn't have a foothold in as well. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 02:59:45
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| I am trying to remember the "steps away" thing that you mentioned. I know that magic arms and armor lost an enhancement bonus for each plane away from where it was created that the item was taken, and the various rings of Concordant Opposition slowly disallowed higher level magic as you got closer to the center. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:02:30
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Yes, divine spells were restricted on the planes the further you were away from your deity.
On the prime, they were restricted depending on which crystal spheres you were in, since you might not be able to contact your deity.
Arcane spells and divine spells, on the planes, were restricted by the planes themselves. I.E. no water spells in the fire plane, or vice versa. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:06:45
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And you could cast up to 2nd level spells without direct contact to your god, which means it was pretty handy that the "contact local deity" spell or whatever it was happened to be second level, eh?
Yeah, I forgot about the outer planes drift for deities and granting spells. Even after Gelcur mentioned it for some reason it didn't click until you mentioned it Kuje. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:12:47
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And you could cast up to 2nd level spells without direct contact to your god, which means it was pretty handy that the "contact local deity" spell or whatever it was happened to be second level, eh?
Yeah, I forgot about the outer planes drift for deities and granting spells. Even after Gelcur mentioned it for some reason it didn't click until you mentioned it Kuje.
Correct, cantrips to second level spells were spells you could cast by will-power and without a deity.
As for the 2nd part of the posters post, no, only deities connected to Realmspace were cast down, which is why some of demihuman deities were restored because it would have messed with the deities of Greyhawk, since they were one and the same. This is also the same as when Orcus died, he died on all worlds he was connected to. Even so, I believe later FR sourcebooks says Ao forced only the deities avatars to Realmspace, not the deities themselves. But those avatars were special in that normally they can't be killed on the Prime but during that event, they could be and so the deity would die as well. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2006 03:21:37 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
503 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:25:47
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
No, Ao didn't have any authority over Greyspace, only over Toril and its crystal sphere.
So does this mean Ao could or could not throw down gods that existed multiple crystal spheres, if one of them was Faerun's?
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
As for the 2nd part of the posters post, no, only deities connected to Realmspace were cast down, which is why some of demihuman deities were restored because it would have messed with the deities of Greyhawk, since they were one and the same.
This implies that Ao could have thrown down those deities? If he didn't throw them down did they still have influence on the realms?
Also do other magical planes limit spells to 9th level? On Toril there was a period of time where they were allowed?
Thanks for all the info by the way. |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
Edited by - Gelcur on 28 Apr 2006 03:31:49 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:30:18
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As far as I know (and I'm not a Greyhawk expert) there were never any 10th or higher spells. Considering one of the metaplot items with Greyhawk is that magic is dying and Boccob is trying to stop its decay, I would say its unlikely that there were any in at least recent Greyhawk history. That having been said, the 2nd Edition Player's Options books had a type of magic called True Dweomers, which weren't exactly 10th+ spells, and I want to say they were like Epic Magic is now, but I'm not 100% certain.
Even in 2nd edition, gods had different aspects, like multiple personalities, for each prime that they were associated with. So the aspect of the gods, like Corellon, that were worshipped in multiple places, were cast down, but it didn't affect Corellon's Greyhawk aspect (personality, if you will). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:31:23
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| We know for sure that Labelas Enoreth and Claggedin Silverbeard were cast down during the Time of Troubles . . . Lolth as well. I know there are others, but those immediately spring to mind. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 03:43:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Even in 2nd edition, gods had different aspects, like multiple personalities, for each prime that they were associated with. So the aspect of the gods, like Corellon, that were worshipped in multiple places, were cast down, but it didn't affect Corellon's Greyhawk aspect (personality, if you will).
Exactly. He, and the rest of the multisphereic deities, were cast down just like the single sphere deities if they were connected to Realmspace. However, as I said, the demihuman deities that died during the ToT's were restored because they would have been dead across all the worlds since that event was special because if you died during that event you stayed dead even if it was an avatar that was killed.
Usually a deity only stays dead if you kill it on it's home plane. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2006 03:45:06 |
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Gelcur
Senior Scribe
503 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 13:57:29
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That makes sense.
So was there any risk involved for multisphereic deities during ToT? They existed across spheres so they still had power else where and their death on Toril made no real difference to them else where. Did they stop being deities in Faerun's Crystal Sphere if they died?
Also what happens when a deity normally dies off of his home plane? |
The party come to a town befallen by hysteria
Rogue: So what's in the general store?
DM: What are you looking for?
Rogue: Whatevers in the store.
DM: Like what?
Rogue: Everything.
DM: There is a lot of stuff.
Rogue: Is there a cart outside?
DM: (rolls) Yes.
Rogue: We'll take it all, we may need it for the greater good. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 14:07:58
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| A deity could not be killed away from home plane, think vampire being forced to retreat to coffin if reduced to 0 hit points, but not killed. The deity was forced to home plane to recover and was out of play on plane here killed for a time, IIRC. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 17:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
A deity could not be killed away from home plane, think vampire being forced to retreat to coffin if reduced to 0 hit points, but not killed. The deity was forced to home plane to recover and was out of play on plane here killed for a time, IIRC.
Not during the ToT's. As I said, that was a special event and if a multisphereic deity died during that event, it would have been dead across all the worlds it was worshipped on. This is why the demihuman deities that were killed, were returned to life, since it would have made a mess of the other settings.
Now, TSR could kill off local setting deities, which they did, without messing with the other settings. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 18:42:56
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| Err, I was reffering to "when a deity normally dies off of his home plane" , perhaps I should have quoted that in my last reply. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2006 : 19:08:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err, I was reffering to "when a deity normally dies off of his home plane" , perhaps I should have quoted that in my last reply.
Ah. Okies, sorry. :) Yes, you are right then. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Gods and Magic for Faerunian Travelers
