Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Products
 Forgotten Realms Novels
 Romance in Forgotten Realms
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  05:27:40  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must actually agree with Winterfox.

*Christmas begins in the Nine Hells, JK*

For me, the main problem is the fact that a lot of writers seem to have a problem writing "epic romance" well. Delly and Wulgar is an example of the problem of writing a 'real' romance in the Realms. For one, the fact is that Real Romances are rarely something you want to read about. Real Romance is often driven by lust, neediness, financial or mental circumstances, and frankly can be quite ugly to look upon. They also more often than not end up being something that breaks up rather badly or ends up with disappointments. Same book as Spine of the World was the pregnant commoner girl. It's a story straight out of all too much real life and quite bluntly, why the hell do I want to read about it?

Cadderly and Danica for me was a wonderful romance....right up until he became a Chosen. After that, Cadderly changed from a shy bookish nerd with too much thought of himself that Danica could compensate for the faults of to a demigod like Elminster. After this, Danica and he should have broken up honestly since she now doesn't have pairity with the man. The only role she exists to have beside him is as his follower really. Frankly, the way Cadderly is written now, its difficult to imagine him having any romances with his divine needs overwhelming him so much.

Alot of times, there's also a lot of weird unwritten assumptions that are playing in readers minds. If I may bring up a funny story from the Forgotten Realms boards when they still had a novels sections (and please correct me if I got it wrong Elaine) there was a backlash on the boards against Arilyn having an affair with Woodchuck (I'm sorry, I can't remember the Wood Elf's actual name). Now I think Elaine assumed initially by her posts that fans were more angered that Arilyn had lost her virginity to him and it was a rather stereotypical "maiden's honor thing" but several fans piped in that they wouldn't have minded Arilyn being sexually promiscuous. It was the fact that she had an emotional bond with the elf that annoyed them.

(There was also a funny story about Elaine's husband's reaction to the affair with the Elf I believe. It's not my story to tell though)

Chemistry is a hard thing to write really. For me, Alustriel and Drizzt are perfect for one another as RA writes Alustriel. However, I think it was only vaguely implied he had sex for the first time in the Orc Trilogy (and not with Cattie). Not only is there a parity issue, its also difficult to see what the two see in each other. Yet, describing it is difficult. It just feels off.

I'm not one of those fans whom is prudish about his fantasy. Give me harems, mad lust, and possessive desire in my books as motivations anytime. I also think that Forgotten Realms books has often numerous refreshing takes on certain romantic cliches. However, I also think its possible that authors can occasionally lose track of the story as well. As I mentioned before, the problem with the Spine of the World wasn't for me that it had a long and involved plot about sex and pregnancy it was the fact that it really didn't engage me as a reader.

To a certain extent, the unreality of sexuality in Forgotten Realms does occasionally bug me. I would not want to read about a fantasy world where women are expected to sit in their place or that sexuality is solely restricted between true wuv or in the bounds of marriage. Frankly, its never happened in history and its kind of frightening to my mindset that people might want a world like that (but this isn't the place to discuss my morality). However, Elminster's Daughter aside (and she's remarkably forgiving) its amazing we don't see more people with a chip on their shoulder for economic or social reasons.

Azoun has what? 100 children? Does any of them regret being left fatherless? Does he provide for them financially? Hell, does he KNOW all of them? One of the nastiest tricks a DM ever pulled on us was a PCs entire story arc being pulled out from the rug of him as the DM laughingly had my character revealed as another one of his wild oats.

I don't want FR to turn prudish and against Ed's vision (long live the sixties and progressive depictions of fantasy) but it'd be nice for someone to comment on Azoun being a deadbeat dad sometime. I don't mind Allusair having a harem of her own (and that's what her "guards" amount to) but I also wonder if she's been magically warded against pregnancy or other things. I don't know, maybe I'm questioning too much of fiction not designed to answer these questions.

But yes, if romance is supposed to be engaging for a reader then it not only has to be realistic in some respects (I.e. I don't think ANYONE can pull off love at first sight anymore) but it also has to have a slightly unrealistic quality of parity to it. As much as I love Jo Grant from Doctor Who and Pertwee's Doctor, I tend to think only a fellow Time Lord in Romana was good enough for a romantic interest.

This of course has NO basis in reality.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 Apr 2006 05:31:00
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  05:29:01  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't mind knowing more about Fil's lovers honestly.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page

Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:03:30  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

I for one do not read Fr novels for the romance aspect.


Yes, yes, you and everyone else who insists that Realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else. But badly done romances are badly done romances, no matter where they're placed. Badly done anything has no excuse. As I said, romances? If you can't write it, then for the love of all that's well-written, don't.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

For me, the main problem is the fact that a lot of writers seem to have a problem writing "epic romance" well. Delly and Wulgar is an example of the problem of writing a 'real' romance in the Realms. For one, the fact is that Real Romances are rarely something you want to read about. Real Romance is often driven by lust, neediness, financial or mental circumstances, and frankly can be quite ugly to look upon. They also more often than not end up being something that breaks up rather badly or ends up with disappointments. Same book as Spine of the World was the pregnant commoner girl. It's a story straight out of all too much real life and quite bluntly, why the hell do I want to read about it?


I do. :P I love complicated romances; I love painful break-ups. Give me mentally unhealthy lovers; let them twist each other. I love seeing people who think they were in unconditional, wonderful love realize that they aren't, and that they aren't compatible at all. It makes me smile when a woman leaves the nice farmboy because, hey, a nobleman's interested and life would be loads better to go live in his estate or something. My whole gripe with most fantasy romances is that they're too idealistic and happy. Perfect anything is boring, boring, boring. I don't want to read about it. There's a reason it's difficult to portray Heaven in an exciting way -- complete, eternal bliss brings no conflict, and neither do characters who can do no wrong. Conflict is the heart of all stories. No conflict, no plot, no drama.

quote:
After this, Danica and he should have broken up honestly since she now doesn't have pairity with the man. The only role she exists to have beside him is as his follower really. Frankly, the way Cadderly is written now, its difficult to imagine him having any romances with his divine needs overwhelming him so much.


Oh, yeah. Cadderly devolves from bookish nerd to self-righteous, holy book-thumping arse really fast. So funny how he gave up the idea of spending long and fruitful years with Danica in a heartbeat to build Spirit Soaring, getting his lifespan dramatically shortened in the process. It's so obvious that Danica's a comforting blanket, not an actual partner. Funnier still when Salvatore decides he has to be rewarded by a return of his youth. Bitch, please. He can have his cake and eat it too? Heavens forbid he faces real consequences of a decision to value his god over his lover.
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:08:48  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well for me Winterfox, the whole problem is that frankly I find such drivel about 'real life' to be uninteresting and lazy writing. I don't read biographies, so why would I read about how Joe Paladin worrying about sterility? I'm all for nasty breakups, disappointments, and the like but give me characters that are INTERESTING than 'real.'

Well there's no reason Deneir should waste his Chosen frankly. Though it always does bug me in the fact that Deneir is portrayed as apparently a thunderous rampaging god of Old Testament Power while, well, he's not that really even NOTICIBLE in the importance of the Realms.

Oghma...Tyr....Ilmater...I mean there's plenty of other gods here and all Greater Gods.


My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page

scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:10:35  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by scererar

I for one do not read Fr novels for the romance aspect.


Yes, yes, you and everyone else who insists that Realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else. But badly done romances are badly done romances, no matter where they're placed. Badly done anything has no excuse. As I said, romances? If you can't write it, then for the love of all that's well-written, don't.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

For me, the main problem is the fact that a lot of writers seem to have a problem writing "epic romance" well. Delly and Wulgar is an example of the problem of writing a 'real' romance in the Realms. For one, the fact is that Real Romances are rarely something you want to read about. Real Romance is often driven by lust, neediness, financial or mental circumstances, and frankly can be quite ugly to look upon. They also more often than not end up being something that breaks up rather badly or ends up with disappointments. Same book as Spine of the World was the pregnant commoner girl. It's a story straight out of all too much real life and quite bluntly, why the hell do I want to read about it?


I do. :P I love complicated romances; I love painful break-ups. Give me mentally unhealthy lovers; let them twist each other. I love seeing people who think they were in unconditional, wonderful love realize that they aren't, and that they aren't compatible at all. It makes me smile when a woman leaves the nice farmboy because, hey, a nobleman's interested and life would be loads better to go live in his estate or something. My whole gripe with most fantasy romances is that they're too idealistic and happy. Perfect anything is boring, boring, boring. I don't want to read about it. There's a reason it's difficult to portray Heaven in an exciting way -- complete, eternal bliss brings no conflict, and neither do characters who can do no wrong. Conflict is the heart of all stories. No conflict, no plot, no drama.

quote:
After this, Danica and he should have broken up honestly since she now doesn't have pairity with the man. The only role she exists to have beside him is as his follower really. Frankly, the way Cadderly is written now, its difficult to imagine him having any romances with his divine needs overwhelming him so much.


Oh, yeah. Cadderly devolves from bookish nerd to self-righteous, holy book-thumping arse really fast. So funny how he gave up the idea of spending long and fruitful years with Danica in a heartbeat to build Spirit Soaring, getting his lifespan dramatically shortened in the process. It's so obvious that Danica's a comforting blanket, not an actual partner. Funnier still when Salvatore decides he has to be rewarded by a return of his youth. Bitch, please. He can have his cake and eat it too? Heavens forbid he faces real consequences of a decision to value his god over his lover.



thanks for the nice reply, as always winterfox, lets quote my whole post next time eh . I did not say anything about my "insisting" that realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else, let alone about the words you put out here before me.

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

_________________________

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
- J. R. R. Tolkien
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:14:37  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eh, everyone gets swept away now and then in posts.

Why DO you read them to clarify friend? ;-)

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page

Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:50:09  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

thanks for the nice reply, as always winterfox, lets quote my whole post next time eh . I did not say anything about my "insisting" that realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else, let alone about the words you put out here before me.


Wow, is there even a point to quoting even the bits I replied to Charles rather than you? Notice that it necessitates a lot more scrolling? It's called forum etiquette not to mess up the table/page length.

So, if you say you don't read Realms novels for romances, it's apparently you consider that an unimportant aspect. Do you excuse bad romances because they "aren't what you read the novels for"? What do you consider important in a Realms novel?

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Well for me Winterfox, the whole problem is that frankly I find such drivel about 'real life' to be uninteresting and lazy writing. I don't read biographies, so why would I read about how Joe Paladin worrying about sterility? I'm all for nasty breakups, disappointments, and the like but give me characters that are INTERESTING than 'real.'


*shrugs* For me, interesting and real are two parts of the same package. If it's not realistic, then it probably isn't going to be interesting to me.

Edited by - Winterfox on 06 Apr 2006 06:51:10
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:17:57  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... Spine of the World... in retrospect I'd say it was one of the most intimate stories I read in the FR. When I was reading the book, however, I thought differently. The entire Mekare (sp?) situation was not only confusing me, but I was wondering what the bloody hell all this had to do with Wulfgar...

There was more depth in that novel than in many others that dealt with Drizzt and his merry men. I prefer such novels as well, although it, IMHO, could have been more detailed. I loved the demon-ridden Wulfgar part.

Fun stuff!

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:25:02  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, to show how our tastes yin and yang. I loved the story...

and I've gradually grown to hate it.

It went from "Wow, this is what being a commoner in the Realms is like!" to "Gods darnit, why did I even read that?"

But I won't fault RA's writing for it.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:47:22  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Yeah, to show how our tastes yin and yang.



Want me to apply some Wolfpack 'loving' to your stories?
I swear, I (hopefully) prevented one person to ever write a single word of prose again, and he was better off without writing. (Not to mention we (the entire world) were better off!)
But seriously, I agree with you assessment, our preferences couldn't be more different.
Maybe you get to the point where assorted action scenes become a bore to you as well

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:51:46  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Frankly, I think I might pay money to see your reaction to my stories. Either you'll utterly hate them or wonder if you'd bought the books is my guess.

and weirdly....

Actually, I skip over action scenes almost entirely in the Realms.

Which can make books very short indeed. Only a few action scenes stand out in any general way whatsoever in my mind. I'm interested in how the fight between Artemis and Drizzt might turn out, less so the sword strokes. Which is weird because I love action films and comics, very few novels seem to adopt a 'cinematic' style.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 Apr 2006 09:52:33
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  10:14:40  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Now here is a thought that might disturb some people... (like I care :-P)

Permanent action is like porn: it is interesting at first and then you start to get bored very quickly.

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  10:17:00  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Which is weird because I love action films and comics, very few novels seem to adopt a 'cinematic' style.


I think that's a bit hard to do. Regardless, the fic I recommended you via PM is excellent with battle scenes, too. The writer focuses on how the viewpoint character feels -- there's no gratuitous lavishing of attention on the lightsaber strokes and the like. (There're lots of combat sequences in there, and yes, details, but they add more than detract.) And I'm saying all this as someone who skips most action scenes. There's a reason I think the fic in question is much, much better than a great deal of profic I've read.
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  10:33:05  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Which is weird because I love action films and comics, very few novels seem to adopt a 'cinematic' style.


I think that's a bit hard to do. Regardless, the fic I recommended you via PM is excellent with battle scenes, too. The writer focuses on how the viewpoint character feels -- there's no gratuitous lavishing of attention on the lightsaber strokes and the like. (There're lots of combat sequences in there, and yes, details, but they add more than detract.) And I'm saying all this as someone who skips most action scenes. There's a reason I think the fic in question is much, much better than a great deal of profic I've read.



sounds like "I, Jedi"

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  10:53:11  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I dunno, not having read that book. But what I'm talking about is a KotOR fanfic. Which, frankly, is better than quite a few FR novels I've read, and I find that rather sad.
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  11:07:41  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
"I, Jedi" is the one Star Wars novel I made a habit of reading every year.

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  11:41:55  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Back to romance...

as I said before, it has to be gotten right, or should not be written at all.

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2270 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  13:31:55  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

[quote]No author interference to shove things in prose like "And they knew it was true love" or "He knew she was his soul mate" or "In that moment, he brimmed with love, and it coursed through his soul." No gazing into each other's eyes and reading emotions. Fantasy authors seem inordinately fond of [i]those.


You've touched on a pet peeve of mine. Telling the reader what a character "knows" has always struck me as a shortcut. I've seen good writers do it from time to time, but it never ceases to make me want to shriek and frisbe the book across the room.

It's my opinion that if fantasy writers are going to write romances, they ought to READ a few good ones. Nora Roberts is usually a pretty safe bet. She has an amazing knack of pulling in the reader in the first couple of pages, making a wide variety of characters interesting and sympathetic, and making you understand why these two particular people are attracted to each other. Mind you, I've read more than a few romances that mistake bitching for banter, and have the characters nastily sniping at each other until the moment they fall into bed and take each other in a ravenous frenzy. And then go back to sniping, until some sort of silly misunderstanding is set straight and suddenly they're cooing like a pair of doves. I've closed many a book and concluded, "I give those two three months, tops." It's pretty easy to find a reason for two characters to want to hook up, but depicted two people who have a genuine reason to STAY together? Not easy.

If fantasy writers are willing to read books on military strategy and watch films with good battle choreography, why not spend the time and effort to figure out how to write a convincing romance?

The effort to write more convincing romance subplots doesn't necessarily have to take you into the romance genre. I consider the romantic elements to be part of the characterization process. If you figure out who a character is on a more than superficial level, you'll have a fairly good idea how they'll response in an intimate relationship.
Go to Top of Page

Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2006 :  16:03:21  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
WAAAAY back in the thread, I believe someone brought up medieval Europe. . .

Yep, I was right -- the perceptive Winterfox:

quote:
Partly, I think, it's because most fantasy settings are faux-medieval Europe, and people think medieval Europe equals chivalric romances.


From my experience with medieval / renaissance / up to Victorian fiction (and I'm certainly not the definitive source on this), these were the kind of things that were written for people in that era.

Chivalry seems to me to be entirely made up, a theme to catch the imagination and distract its readers (almost entirely nobility) from the harsh realities of life. Fairy tales are meant to instruct and to foster a kind of optimism -- not meant to be totally realistic. As time progressed and literacy increased, the "chivalric, fantasy romances" turned into "Up-your-station" romances (the "Cinderella" phenomenon, and its thousands of versions, and books ala Jane Austen, though she's not the best example, since she writes inversions that are a bit more clever).

What's been interesting is that modern fantasy still draws on that kind of thing.

This (also by Winterfox)...

quote:
Hence, the superlative male lover and the woman sitting on a pedestal of worship. Then there're the people who think "Oh, they must think old-fashioned and stuff," so they stuff their prose and dialogue full of grandoise proclamations. Perhaps the presence of magic and gods that really exist make the idea of fated love stronger, more plausible, so that gets shoved in, too. (Not to mention reincarnated love. Wtf, Marion Zimmer Bradley?) There's the "the power of true love will be magic so strong it'll topple the Dark Lord yaay!" crap. Of course, some people can't write believable romantic relationships period, and... well, I've got nothin' on that front.

What amuses me is how dishonest authors can be when it comes to their characters' romances. It's always one true love, not a fling or one true lust; no infatuation, but stable, eternal adoration. The woman's often virginal, as if the hymen is sacred or something. If the man has had other lovers before, said lovers will be either whores or female dogs. If he's a ladies' man, he'll find the heroine or the Designated Love Interest to be the "right woman" to make him settle down. If there's a love triangle, it's almost always obvious which man/woman the hero/ine will choose, because the writer will tip the scale so badly it's not funny (one girl will be intelligent and feisty; the other vapid, manipulative, or both. One boy will be down-to-earth but witty; the other slimy and snobbish and rich).


...is really, really true. That's the tradition, originating from medieval literature (where "romance" takes a firm backseat to anything else). It's objectifying, and it's dishonest. Things don't happen like that in the real world -- it's a sort of deceptive, candy-coating of the realities of love and desire and lust and obsession that many of us (including myself) just don't buy.

Then again, in theory we want to be like the handsome/beautiful subject hero/ine who wins the heart of the beautiful/handsome object prince/ss and achieves great success, because we want to BE like that. There's a reason people like successful love stories in fantasy, romance, epics, even sitcoms. We want things like that, and we want to think we can achieve them.

But to gloss over the difficulties inherent in success in anything you desire is 1) unrealistic (in that it just doesn't happen), 2) deceptive (it tries to convince readers otherwise), and 3)counter-productive (people might really think it's so easy, when they see it being done, setting themselves up for serious disappointment).

Anyway. That's my 2 coppers.

Another bit:

One of my biggest, biggest, BIGGEST pet peeves in the realm of romance / sexual play between characters is when completely inexperienced, virginal, make-it-up-as-you-go sex is glorious and perfect. Bleh! Doesn't happen like that. Some people really truly are just naturals, but seriously -- not every toned-but-shy fieldhand and meek/innocent barmaid has that particular talent.

Cheers

P.S. Someone do me a favor -- if I ever write a romance that's completely saccharine sweet and schmaltzy (unless I mean it that way, in order to be ironic, and completely invert it, etc., etc., that sort of thing), smack me a good one upside the head, eh?

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
Go to Top of Page

Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2006 :  18:59:23  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Erik, if that happens, and IF I am anywhere near you when it does, be assured you'll get a healthy whack ...

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2006 :  21:56:53  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
On the other hand honestly, there aren't really a dearth of attractive from someone's point of view people in this world and I tend to imagine warriors are the types that are well proportioned physically.

Then again I don't see "Shy virginal women" partciularly prevalent or the like that prevalent in FR.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
Go to Top of Page

Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  05:23:22  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

From my experience with medieval / renaissance / up to Victorian fiction (and I'm certainly not the definitive source on this), these were the kind of things that were written for people in that era.


It probably bears noting, though, that what many people see as the definitive chivalric romance -- the Arthurian legend -- isn't very nice. Malory's version, which again is taken as definitive by many, portrays Guinevere was a complete and utter bitch. Then again, Malory is a bit like Shakespeare in some ways; a lot of people know how the plot goes in general, but have never actually read it.

This includes fantasy writers that like to drop big-name literature as sources of their inspiration, from Beowulf to Chaucer to Tolkien and so on. I sort of roll my eyes every time Tolkien's mentioned, anyway, because just about every fantasy writer seems obliged to include his name when asked, "What got you into fantasy?"

quote:
Chivalry seems to me to be entirely made up, a theme to catch the imagination and distract its readers (almost entirely nobility) from the harsh realities of life.


It is, more or less. It's doubtful chivalric ideals as described in romances like de Troyes' or Chaucer's or Malory's was ever practiced, never mind to such an extent.

quote:
What's been interesting is that modern fantasy still draws on that kind of thing.


Probably for the same reason that legendary, magical swords and dragons still appeal, or that characters with hidden royal lineage appeal. It's kind of funny, considering that most of the modern world claims to be a meritocracy, but in a startling portion of the fantasy genre, you still see heroes who are secretly heirs to the kingdom running around because, damn it, if you aren't descended from a line of kings and queens, then you aren't worthy of being savior. (Hi, Prof. Tolkien!) Most -- if not all -- older romances rarely feature characters who aren't noble-born, and a great deal is made of the fact that if you cut these people, they'd bleed bright blue.

quote:
Then again, in theory we want to be like the handsome/beautiful subject hero/ine who wins the heart of the beautiful/handsome object prince/ss and achieves great success, because we want to BE like that. There's a reason people like successful love stories in fantasy, romance, epics, even sitcoms. We want things like that, and we want to think we can achieve them.


It's like Mary Sues and self-insertion/wish-fulfillment stories. But there's a reason people usually scorn these and dismiss the writers of them as young and inexperienced, in the world of amateur writing. (Of course, there are professionally published Mary Sues, but that's neither here nor there.)

quote:
P.S. Someone do me a favor -- if I ever write a romance that's completely saccharine sweet and schmaltzy (unless I mean it that way, in order to be ironic, and completely invert it, etc., etc., that sort of thing), smack me a good one upside the head, eh?


How about taking a flamethrower to your head?

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

On the other hand honestly, there aren't really a dearth of attractive from someone's point of view people in this world and I tend to imagine warriors are the types that are well proportioned physically.



On the other hand, would a woman warrior have a slender, waifish body that fantasy authors tend to like so much? Wouldn't warriors have scars, period? A cut bisecting their faces? Missing teeth because they'v been knocked out in combat? A nasty burn?

Edited by - Winterfox on 08 Apr 2006 05:25:39
Go to Top of Page

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  07:53:51  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I find it ironic Winterfox that you name Tolkien when the savior in his books was a wealthy landowner's son and his gardner from a small hamlet. In fact, as I recall, Tolkien is the first "average man" hero in all of fantasy. I actually always felt Aragorn was a bit of a parody character. Sort of like the Lord of the Rings being the Zeppo from Buffy the Vampire Slayers except forty years earlier.

"Look at this fanastic lord, his tragic romance, and his destined lineage....and then note the real story is about these two peasants over here."

quote:
On the other hand, would a woman warrior have a slender, waifish body that fantasy authors tend to like so much? Wouldn't warriors have scars, period? A cut bisecting their faces? Missing teeth because they'v been knocked out in combat? A nasty burn?


In Forgotten Realms, perhaps not (which seems to have remarkably good hygeine for a supposedly middle aged world). I've always felt we just assume their teeth are good anyway. I've never seen the draw of waifish women in fantasy anyway.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 08 Apr 2006 07:55:23
Go to Top of Page

Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  08:23:58  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Speaking of Romances did anyone notice the rather amusing trend that appeared in Powers of Faerun?

Ie both Dabron Shashenstar and Sothillis have Cohorts who are also their wives!

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
Go to Top of Page

Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2006 :  08:30:55  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

I find it ironic Winterfox that you name Tolkien when the savior in his books was a wealthy landowner's son and his gardner from a small hamlet. In fact, as I recall, Tolkien is the first "average man" hero in all of fantasy. I actually always felt Aragorn was a bit of a parody character. Sort of like the Lord of the Rings being the Zeppo from Buffy the Vampire Slayers except forty years earlier.


I find it ironic that you're speaking without, apparently, having read The Silmarillion. Or if you have, you're ignoring it entirely.
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000