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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2290 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2006 :  17:46:25  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, Arilyn grew up in Evereska, and yes, she left at an early age. (Fifteen is very young for a half-elf.) It wasn't so much that she was uncomfortable with nudity, but the girly outfit she was given. Arilyn is accustomed to wearing boots and leggings, a simple shirt and tunic. Short, filmy dancing skirts aren't her usual attire. Also, at about 5'9" she's substantially taller than most elf females. Consider it this way: when a forty-year-old woman dresses like a teenager, she usually looks older, not younger. When a relatively sturdy half elf warrior gets dolled up in delicate elven party clothes, she feels conspicuously human. If everyone simply got butt-neckid, she'd probably feel less self-conscious.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2006 :  18:33:33  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ok, that's what I thought (that she'd left at an early age). I was thinking in terms of how "human" and how "elven" she had become, psychologically.

That makes so much sense, Elaine.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2006 :  13:35:20  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

Yes, Arilyn grew up in Evereska, and yes, she left at an early age. (Fifteen is very young for a half-elf.) It wasn't so much that she was uncomfortable with nudity, but the girly outfit she was given. Arilyn is accustomed to wearing boots and leggings, a simple shirt and tunic. Short, filmy dancing skirts aren't her usual attire. Also, at about 5'9" she's substantially taller than most elf females. Consider it this way: when a forty-year-old woman dresses like a teenager, she usually looks older, not younger. When a relatively sturdy half elf warrior gets dolled up in delicate elven party clothes, she feels conspicuously human. If everyone simply got butt-neckid, she'd probably feel less self-conscious.


Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I assumed she wasn't comfortable with exposing skin due to the "scanty" thing.
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2290 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2006 :  15:54:42  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

Ah. Thank you for clarifying. I assumed she wasn't comfortable with exposing skin due to the "scanty" thing.


Nope. Picture Xena's face if she were presented with a figure skater's sequined costume. In pink. That pretty much sums up Arilyn's reaction to anything with filmy, diaphonous skirts.

She had a similar reaction to the fairy queen costume she wore to a Waterdeep ball in the novel Dream Spheres. ("What do you mean, my weapon belt doesn't 'go' with this outfit?")

She's really, really going to hate the dress code in Tethyr's royal courts.
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GungHo
Seeker

USA
68 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2006 :  19:40:07  Show Profile  Visit GungHo's Homepage Send GungHo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always enjoyed the Laeral/Khelben relationship... they're presented as equals and seem happy with their lot together. Each of them has their own little schemes, sometimes which intersect, but neither of them seem to take issue over it for long.

Which is what's always concerned me about Alustriel and Thunderbuns or whatever his name is... they aren't equals, and he knows it, and it seems to really bother him (or it did in Seven Sisters, anyway). I'm not bothered by the potrayal at all... as it's realistic, considering. It's just painful. She keeps singing "Wind Beneath My Wings" to him, and he doesn't seem to be hearing it. I can see how that'd be a big problem for a lot of Realms romances, just as it is with real world romances: you make more money/have more power/contribute more to the world than I do, and it bothers me. It's a nice touch to see.
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Ioulaum
Seeker

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2006 :  23:37:33  Show Profile  Visit Ioulaum's Homepage Send Ioulaum a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps



I don't disagree inconsistencies are possible to prop up but I actually think that a few are fine and make FR more realistic than say...Dragonlance where its very rare you find inconcistencies.




Dragonlance is the King of inconsistances. i haven't read any of the more recent novels but other novels keep contridicting each other all the time. There must have been at least 3 different ver of the legend of Huma that appear in the books.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  00:34:18  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well think of a lack of inconsistancies if a merit if you like....I certainly don't.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  01:14:12  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Well think of a lack of inconsistancies if a merit if you like....I certainly don't.


You have to be the first person I've encountered who thinks a canon riddled with inconsistencies (like sourcebooks/novels contradicting each other factually) is good. Fancy consuming some EU Star Wars novels? Right up your alley.

Do you have your characters' hair color, background and sexual orientation change within paragraphs or something? And spell their names differently every time you refer to them? Heh.
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1772 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  02:40:24  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Inconsistencies are virtually inevitable in any long-running series, even if it's written by a single author and set in the real world. The Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe series are cases in point.
When multiple authors are involved, and every detail of the setting is invented, the potential for inconsistency increases exponentially.
Which doesn't mean that we writers shouldn't do the best we can to be consistent, of course.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  02:51:05  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They open up the opportunity for retcons and deeper examination of issues in the storyline.

And I love Star wars. My favorite book is the Chronology.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2290 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  13:48:14  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage Send ElaineCunningham a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

Inconsistencies are virtually inevitable in any long-running series, even if it's written by a single author and set in the real world. The Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe series are cases in point.
When multiple authors are involved, and every detail of the setting is invented, the potential for inconsistency increases exponentially.
Which doesn't mean that we writers shouldn't do the best we can to be consistent, of course.


Inconsistencies are not limited to long-running fiction series. One year a young man attending a GenCon panel seminar asked about inconsistencies in the Realms. At the time, I was writing a non-fiction article about Richard III and the mysterious disappearance of his two nephews from the tower of London. I've read quite a few books on the topic, and there is no consensus among historians about the fate of the "princes in the tower." History might be concerned with fact and event, but it has much in common with fiction in that it depends upon point of view and narrative shape. So I was able to respond, quite accurately, that books set in the Realms are often more consistent than books based upon historical fact.

Likewise, variant spellings in the Realms are held up as troubling inconsistencies. The Lolth/Lloth variation is, in some circles, treated like the first of the Four Horses of the Appocolypse, or at the very least, a minor scandal. I've been reading folklore and mythology since I was old enough to get a library card, so such things don't bother me overmuch. The names of Celtic gods and heroes, in particular, show up with any number of spellings. Part of the reason for this the difficulty of translating from one language to another, especially one that does not contain all of the sounds of the original. Going another step, spelling in the English language was chaotic until the early 18th century. If you spend any time at all reading original sources and "untranslated" early English works, you're pretty familiar with spelling variations. I have no problem whatsoever with the notion that proper names, particularly those that are widely known, would be transcribed variously by people in different areas and in different times.

But we all have our pet peeves. I like many of Marion Zimmer Bradley's books, but her characters DID tend to change eye color fairly frequently throughout the course of a novel. (Thankfully, most of her characters, at least in the Darkover series, had red hair...) To me, that's a sign that the writer isn't really "seeing" the character.

As in all things, YMMV.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 05 Apr 2006 13:51:41
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  15:38:15  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well put, Elaine! That captures about how I feel about the whole issue.

Sure, I like being consistent (and being inconsistent only by purpose), but it's, well, not my first priority. Shared fantasy worlds (particularly the Realms, Dragonlance, and Eberron will become such) are vast, spacious, and full of thousands of variations and differing accounts. Expecting one character to know all about another culture and be perfectly right (since most of the novels deal with one character's perspective at a time) is like asking your average Roman house guard to tell you all about Egypt -- if he even knows it exists, and as more than rumor and wild tale. People trade all sorts of incredible (rightly) tales from all over, and that's how people get their information. Is it ok for this to excuse inconsistency? I don't see why not.

Though that might be a cop-out, an evasion. Fortunately, I don't think it's first priority. I'd rather see a good self-coherent story that grips my interest than one that fits every single little thing out there. Plus, I like seeing authors' varying takes on the same event / people. Variation is good -- purposeful variation is better.

Also:

quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

But we all have our pet peeves. I like many of Marion Zimmer Bradley's books, but her characters DID tend to change eye color fairly frequently throughout the course of a novel. (Thankfully, most of her characters, at least in the Darkover series, had red hair...) To me, that's a sign that the writer isn't really "seeing" the character.


You're dead on, EC. Me, I've been known to vary the eye color in my own novels -- and (particularly since the eyes are important, in the same way they're important to Peter Jackson's films) few things frustrate me more. It's something that I usually only really catch on editing. Now, I do have characters whose eyes DO change, but that's always for a point.

I think it results from not always mapping out my characters in full detail and/or not sitting down and writing the whole thing, progressively, without diverting my attention (ah, to be a full-time writer -- 'twould be joyous!).

But this thread was about romances, wasn't it?

Are people talking about *romances* they find inconsistent? That's sticky, since most authors don't generally "share" romances amongst each other (would that make them Realms swingers?). Romance is usually such a personal thing, and there are lots of difficulties inherent in getting personal with another author's important characters (like WotC's "Don't do it!" policy ).

The only one I can think of off-hand is Khelben and Laeral -- Ed handles them a deal, they show up in Elaine's work (Windwalker, no, and others?), and they're important in Troy's Return of the Archwizards. I rather like this relationship myself.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 05 Apr 2006 20:54:19
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  16:05:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

The only one I can think of off-hand is Khelben and Laeral -- Ed handles them a deal, they show up in Elaine's work (Windwalker, no, and others?), and they're important in Troy's Return of the Archwizards.



I think it's safe to say we'll see more of this duo in Blackstaff, too.

And as much as I can rant about retcons and inconsistencies, this isn't really the thread for it...

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  18:24:07  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing. (I once was given the pleasure(???) of working on a submission for a freelance translater working on a 'romance' novel. Maybe I am no romantic, but that stuff seriously made me gag (I have too much respect for my computer and keyboard to actually vomit over such stuff!).

The one 'romance' that I wish the story should have dwelt on more seriously was the Drizzt/Cattie-Brie-thingy. Personally, I think that things like this should either be treated with respect or not at all, love isn't just there and it isn't something you put on or off like you do a warm cloak. So, one should either treat it with the respect it deserves or not at all. If one cannot write romance, then to hell with it in the story, the hero doesn't HAVE to get the girl etc.

I admit that it is difficult, especially since an author most likely can only draw from his own personal experience and such might not be adequate to the story. In the Drizzt/Cattie-Brie case IMO it would have done the characters and their particular sitation much, much better if RAS had dwelt on that relationship a little longer. No extended sex-scenes or some such thing but the actual sharing of emotions, not only in the heat of combat.

Just my two (insert random currency here)

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  18:58:10  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it's safe to say we'll see more of this duo in Blackstaff, too.


Indeed! That will be most excellent. That book's on my most anticipated list.

quote:
And as much as I can rant about retcons and inconsistencies, this isn't really the thread for it...



Absolutely agreed. Just trying to nudge us back on topic. Sorry if I implied otherwise!

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing.


In my opinion as well. I know I don't find it easy. It implies a certain level of seriousness that one doesn't always desire. I fret over those scenes myself a LOT.

And I find that it's a diversely-received thing too. Some people love a particular scene, some people absolutely hate it. It's hard to find people who fall in between.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  19:40:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it's safe to say we'll see more of this duo in Blackstaff, too.


Indeed! That will be most excellent. That book's on my most anticipated list.


Mine, too. I will likely try to finagle an autographed copy out of the esteemed Sage Schend, if I can.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And as much as I can rant about retcons and inconsistencies, this isn't really the thread for it...



Absolutely agreed. Just trying to nudge us back on topic. Sorry if I implied otherwise!


It's a topic that many of us could wax eloquent on... But it's not the topic of this thread, which I myself was partially responsible for derailing.

I wonder what it must be like for clerics of different faiths, when involved in a romantic relationship with each other... That'd be interesting to explore, thinks I.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  19:59:00  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I wonder what it must be like for clerics of different faiths, when involved in a romantic relationship with each other... That'd be interesting to explore, thinks I.



This of course depends on the faiths. It is not like each deity war with all the others. People believe and offer worship to many deities, Clerics just decide to devote life to serving one of them and honor them more then others. Clerics of allied deities should interact fairly well, the closer the dogmas of each compliment the less problem would occur. Clerics of deities that are foes would of course have a hard to imposible time in a successful romance, though each might love each other seeking to redeem the other.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  20:36:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I wonder what it must be like for clerics of different faiths, when involved in a romantic relationship with each other... That'd be interesting to explore, thinks I.



This of course depends on the faiths. It is not like each deity war with all the others. People believe and offer worship to many deities, Clerics just decide to devote life to serving one of them and honor them more then others. Clerics of allied deities should interact fairly well, the closer the dogmas of each compliment the less problem would occur. Clerics of deities that are foes would of course have a hard to imposible time in a successful romance, though each might love each other seeking to redeem the other.



Yeah, I was thinking something like that... But what about faiths that didn't oppose each other, but weren't exactly allies, either? Like a cleric of Sune and a cleric of Helm...

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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  20:50:30  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Yeah, I was thinking something like that... But what about faiths that didn't oppose each other, but weren't exactly allies, either? Like a cleric of Sune and a cleric of Helm...



This might depend on the personalities of the individual clerics. I can see that some not really interested in in what the other does during working hours, just do not bring work home with you. Others might consider themselves working all the time and might have have too many discussions (arguements) about the value of Law as oposed to free will (Chaos) to make such a romance short lived. Both of course would agree on concept of doing Good, but how it was done causing problems.
Of course it would also depend on alignment, the one step away could have both the same alignment. *wink* , if I did my sums correctly.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  03:01:29  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing. (I once was given the pleasure(???) of working on a submission for a freelance translater working on a 'romance' novel. Maybe I am no romantic, but that stuff seriously made me gag (I have too much respect for my computer and keyboard to actually vomit over such stuff!).


Seconded. Rare is the romance that manages to appeal to me, and almost inevitably, the ones that do are a bit, uhm, unhealthy (power play, fraught with imperfections -- hell, I'm writing one that's a weird variation of Stockholm's Syndrome). No flowers, hearts, and puppies. No declarations of love. No author interference to shove things in prose like "And they knew it was true love" or "He knew she was his soul mate" or "In that moment, he brimmed with love, and it coursed through his soul." No gazing into each other's eyes and reading emotions. Fantasy authors seem inordinately fond of those.

quote:
If one cannot write romance, then to hell with it in the story, the hero doesn't HAVE to get the girl etc.


Zomg yes. So much word McWord of Clan Word with a side of word. Sometimes I feel almost as if all fantasy writers have signed a contract to shove a romance into their stories regardless of whether it's appropriate, suitable, or feasible. Romance, like combat, falls easily into the category of "If you can't do it well, then please don't."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  03:35:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Yeah, I was thinking something like that... But what about faiths that didn't oppose each other, but weren't exactly allies, either? Like a cleric of Sune and a cleric of Helm...



This might depend on the personalities of the individual clerics. I can see that some not really interested in in what the other does during working hours, just do not bring work home with you. Others might consider themselves working all the time and might have have too many discussions (arguements) about the value of Law as oposed to free will (Chaos) to make such a romance short lived. Both of course would agree on concept of doing Good, but how it was done causing problems.
Of course it would also depend on alignment, the one step away could have both the same alignment. *wink* , if I did my sums correctly.



I'm not just thinking of the alignment difference, though. To be a cleric of a deity is to be utterly dedicated, heart and soul, to the embodiment of a concept. When two such people, utterly dedicated to concepts that don't oppose each other but don't mesh, either, come together, what is the result? That's what I'd like to see.

Our cleric of Sune is going to be dedicated to romantic love, to spreading beauty around, and to appreciating beauty. Our cleric of Helm is going to be guarding stuff. One will be utterly captivated by a cunningly carved statue of a dryad, the other is going to be drooling over defensive fortifications. Where do these two meet? How do they make it work? That's where the potential is.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
30338 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  03:39:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing. (I once was given the pleasure(???) of working on a submission for a freelance translater working on a 'romance' novel. Maybe I am no romantic, but that stuff seriously made me gag (I have too much respect for my computer and keyboard to actually vomit over such stuff!).


Seconded. Rare is the romance that manages to appeal to me, and almost inevitably, the ones that do are a bit, uhm, unhealthy (power play, fraught with imperfections -- hell, I'm writing one that's a weird variation of Stockholm's Syndrome). No flowers, hearts, and puppies. No declarations of love. No author interference to shove things in prose like "And they knew it was true love" or "He knew she was his soul mate" or "In that moment, he brimmed with love, and it coursed through his soul." No gazing into each other's eyes and reading emotions. Fantasy authors seem inordinately fond of those.


Yeah... Most romance in fantasy novels does feel forced, and a lot of them would be better without it. Of the Realms novels I've read (and I've still got many to read), only a few romances have worked for me: Artus Cimber and Alisanda Rayburton, Liriel and Fyodor, Arilyn and Danilo, and Giogi Wyvernspur and Cat of Ordulin. Most others either don't feel believable, or I don't see enough to form an opinion on it.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4304 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  04:13:52  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Our cleric of Sune is going to be dedicated to romantic love, to spreading beauty around, and to appreciating beauty. Our cleric of Helm is going to be guarding stuff. One will be utterly captivated by a cunningly carved statue of a dryad, the other is going to be drooling over defensive fortifications. Where do these two meet? How do they make it work? That's where the potential is.



Oh I do agree that focus can be very different, some could guard their friend protectively as the other spreads romantic love. The exteme on religious devovition to dogma can make it hard, but rarely does extremes come into play.

Spreading beauty could be painting and hanging pictures, protection can be protecting the pictures and the artist. As far as it goes the "statue of a dryad" could well be under the protection of Helm and in service to Sune, that could bring the two together with a shared interest. Now if the cleric of Helm wants to build a wall around the statue and the Cleric does not want her shielded by such a wall there will be problems. There however are other ways to protect then by building a wall that would not hide beauty. The cleric of Sune could clearly acept a fence or rail to protect the statue as long as the beauty can still be seen and enjoyed. That is why personalities , IMO, will matter more then alignment as to how romance might go. Some will not match up well at all , by being true to their dogma, others clearly can match up well metting the needs of both dogmas.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Winterfox
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Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  04:15:34  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah... Most romance in fantasy novels does feel forced, and a lot of them would be better without it. Of the Realms novels I've read (and I've still got many to read), only a few romances have worked for me: Artus Cimber and Alisanda Rayburton, Liriel and Fyodor, Arilyn and Danilo, and Giogi Wyvernspur and Cat of Ordulin. Most others either don't feel believable, or I don't see enough to form an opinion on it.



I don't read romance novels, full stop, so I'm not sure if I could compare and say whether the forced romance thing is unique to fantasy. But yes, fantasy authors seem much more inclined to launch into flowery inner monologues about how deeply people adore their lovers.

Partly, I think, it's because most fantasy settings are faux-medieval Europe, and people think medieval Europe equals chivalric romances. Hence, the superlative male lover and the woman sitting on a pedestal of worship. Then there're the people who think "Oh, they must think old-fashioned and stuff," so they stuff their prose and dialogue full of grandoise proclamations. Perhaps the presence of magic and gods that really exist make the idea of fated love stronger, more plausible, so that gets shoved in, too. (Not to mention reincarnated love. Wtf, Marion Zimmer Bradley?) There's the "the power of true love will be magic so strong it'll topple the Dark Lord yaay!" crap. Of course, some people can't write believable romantic relationships period, and... well, I've got nothin' on that front.

What amuses me is how dishonest authors can be when it comes to their characters' romances. It's always one true love, not a fling or one true lust; no infatuation, but stable, eternal adoration. The woman's often virginal, as if the hymen is sacred or something. If the man has had other lovers before, said lovers will be either whores or female dogs. If he's a ladies' man, he'll find the heroine or the Designated Love Interest to be the "right woman" to make him settle down. If there's a love triangle, it's almost always obvious which man/woman the hero/ine will choose, because the writer will tip the scale so badly it's not funny (one girl will be intelligent and feisty; the other vapid, manipulative, or both. One boy will be down-to-earth but witty; the other slimy and snobbish and rich).

To narrow it down, the FR romances I've found unconvincing tend to feel to me like connect-the-dots artifices. Maybe it's because there are too many combat sequences, such that they don't have the time to show their emotional development and inter-character interaction (even though I maintain that it's possible to do this in fight scenes -- most people just don't manage it). Sometimes it's a complete and utter lack of passion (Cadderly/Danica, Ilsevele/Araevin); other times it's the overabundance of saccharine, gag-worthy declarations of TWU WUV (Narm/Shandril -- hell, this pairing even has the dreaded "they look at each other across the room and lo, it is true love!" cliche. Good grief).

Edited by - Winterfox on 06 Apr 2006 04:56:07
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  05:19:22  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I for one do not read Fr novels for the romance aspect. Though my favorite would be Azoun and his Filferil(sp?), his queen. Even though the former king indulged in other.... ahhh trists, he and the queen seemed to have the ultimate romance, realmswise.

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

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I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve.
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