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Ioulaum
Acolyte

USA
18 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2006 :  23:37:33  Show Profile  Visit Ioulaum's Homepage Send Ioulaum a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps



I don't disagree inconsistencies are possible to prop up but I actually think that a few are fine and make FR more realistic than say...Dragonlance where its very rare you find inconcistencies.




Dragonlance is the King of inconsistances. i haven't read any of the more recent novels but other novels keep contridicting each other all the time. There must have been at least 3 different ver of the legend of Huma that appear in the books.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  00:34:18  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well think of a lack of inconsistancies if a merit if you like....I certainly don't.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  01:14:12  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Well think of a lack of inconsistancies if a merit if you like....I certainly don't.


You have to be the first person I've encountered who thinks a canon riddled with inconsistencies (like sourcebooks/novels contradicting each other factually) is good. Fancy consuming some EU Star Wars novels? Right up your alley.

Do you have your characters' hair color, background and sexual orientation change within paragraphs or something? And spell their names differently every time you refer to them? Heh.
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
1814 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  02:40:24  Show Profile  Visit Richard Lee Byers's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Inconsistencies are virtually inevitable in any long-running series, even if it's written by a single author and set in the real world. The Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe series are cases in point.
When multiple authors are involved, and every detail of the setting is invented, the potential for inconsistency increases exponentially.
Which doesn't mean that we writers shouldn't do the best we can to be consistent, of course.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  02:51:05  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
They open up the opportunity for retcons and deeper examination of issues in the storyline.

And I love Star wars. My favorite book is the Chronology.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author

2395 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  13:48:14  Show Profile  Visit ElaineCunningham's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers

Inconsistencies are virtually inevitable in any long-running series, even if it's written by a single author and set in the real world. The Sherlock Holmes and Nero Wolfe series are cases in point.
When multiple authors are involved, and every detail of the setting is invented, the potential for inconsistency increases exponentially.
Which doesn't mean that we writers shouldn't do the best we can to be consistent, of course.


Inconsistencies are not limited to long-running fiction series. One year a young man attending a GenCon panel seminar asked about inconsistencies in the Realms. At the time, I was writing a non-fiction article about Richard III and the mysterious disappearance of his two nephews from the tower of London. I've read quite a few books on the topic, and there is no consensus among historians about the fate of the "princes in the tower." History might be concerned with fact and event, but it has much in common with fiction in that it depends upon point of view and narrative shape. So I was able to respond, quite accurately, that books set in the Realms are often more consistent than books based upon historical fact.

Likewise, variant spellings in the Realms are held up as troubling inconsistencies. The Lolth/Lloth variation is, in some circles, treated like the first of the Four Horses of the Appocolypse, or at the very least, a minor scandal. I've been reading folklore and mythology since I was old enough to get a library card, so such things don't bother me overmuch. The names of Celtic gods and heroes, in particular, show up with any number of spellings. Part of the reason for this the difficulty of translating from one language to another, especially one that does not contain all of the sounds of the original. Going another step, spelling in the English language was chaotic until the early 18th century. If you spend any time at all reading original sources and "untranslated" early English works, you're pretty familiar with spelling variations. I have no problem whatsoever with the notion that proper names, particularly those that are widely known, would be transcribed variously by people in different areas and in different times.

But we all have our pet peeves. I like many of Marion Zimmer Bradley's books, but her characters DID tend to change eye color fairly frequently throughout the course of a novel. (Thankfully, most of her characters, at least in the Darkover series, had red hair...) To me, that's a sign that the writer isn't really "seeing" the character.

As in all things, YMMV.

Edited by - ElaineCunningham on 05 Apr 2006 13:51:41
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  15:38:15  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well put, Elaine! That captures about how I feel about the whole issue.

Sure, I like being consistent (and being inconsistent only by purpose), but it's, well, not my first priority. Shared fantasy worlds (particularly the Realms, Dragonlance, and Eberron will become such) are vast, spacious, and full of thousands of variations and differing accounts. Expecting one character to know all about another culture and be perfectly right (since most of the novels deal with one character's perspective at a time) is like asking your average Roman house guard to tell you all about Egypt -- if he even knows it exists, and as more than rumor and wild tale. People trade all sorts of incredible (rightly) tales from all over, and that's how people get their information. Is it ok for this to excuse inconsistency? I don't see why not.

Though that might be a cop-out, an evasion. Fortunately, I don't think it's first priority. I'd rather see a good self-coherent story that grips my interest than one that fits every single little thing out there. Plus, I like seeing authors' varying takes on the same event / people. Variation is good -- purposeful variation is better.

Also:

quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham

But we all have our pet peeves. I like many of Marion Zimmer Bradley's books, but her characters DID tend to change eye color fairly frequently throughout the course of a novel. (Thankfully, most of her characters, at least in the Darkover series, had red hair...) To me, that's a sign that the writer isn't really "seeing" the character.


You're dead on, EC. Me, I've been known to vary the eye color in my own novels -- and (particularly since the eyes are important, in the same way they're important to Peter Jackson's films) few things frustrate me more. It's something that I usually only really catch on editing. Now, I do have characters whose eyes DO change, but that's always for a point.

I think it results from not always mapping out my characters in full detail and/or not sitting down and writing the whole thing, progressively, without diverting my attention (ah, to be a full-time writer -- 'twould be joyous!).

But this thread was about romances, wasn't it?

Are people talking about *romances* they find inconsistent? That's sticky, since most authors don't generally "share" romances amongst each other (would that make them Realms swingers?). Romance is usually such a personal thing, and there are lots of difficulties inherent in getting personal with another author's important characters (like WotC's "Don't do it!" policy ).

The only one I can think of off-hand is Khelben and Laeral -- Ed handles them a deal, they show up in Elaine's work (Windwalker, no, and others?), and they're important in Troy's Return of the Archwizards. I rather like this relationship myself.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 05 Apr 2006 20:54:19
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  16:05:48  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

The only one I can think of off-hand is Khelben and Laeral -- Ed handles them a deal, they show up in Elaine's work (Windwalker, no, and others?), and they're important in Troy's Return of the Archwizards.



I think it's safe to say we'll see more of this duo in Blackstaff, too.

And as much as I can rant about retcons and inconsistencies, this isn't really the thread for it...

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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  18:24:07  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing. (I once was given the pleasure(???) of working on a submission for a freelance translater working on a 'romance' novel. Maybe I am no romantic, but that stuff seriously made me gag (I have too much respect for my computer and keyboard to actually vomit over such stuff!).

The one 'romance' that I wish the story should have dwelt on more seriously was the Drizzt/Cattie-Brie-thingy. Personally, I think that things like this should either be treated with respect or not at all, love isn't just there and it isn't something you put on or off like you do a warm cloak. So, one should either treat it with the respect it deserves or not at all. If one cannot write romance, then to hell with it in the story, the hero doesn't HAVE to get the girl etc.

I admit that it is difficult, especially since an author most likely can only draw from his own personal experience and such might not be adequate to the story. In the Drizzt/Cattie-Brie case IMO it would have done the characters and their particular sitation much, much better if RAS had dwelt on that relationship a little longer. No extended sex-scenes or some such thing but the actual sharing of emotions, not only in the heat of combat.

Just my two (insert random currency here)

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4598 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  18:58:10  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it's safe to say we'll see more of this duo in Blackstaff, too.


Indeed! That will be most excellent. That book's on my most anticipated list.

quote:
And as much as I can rant about retcons and inconsistencies, this isn't really the thread for it...



Absolutely agreed. Just trying to nudge us back on topic. Sorry if I implied otherwise!

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing.


In my opinion as well. I know I don't find it easy. It implies a certain level of seriousness that one doesn't always desire. I fret over those scenes myself a LOT.

And I find that it's a diversely-received thing too. Some people love a particular scene, some people absolutely hate it. It's hard to find people who fall in between.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  19:40:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think it's safe to say we'll see more of this duo in Blackstaff, too.


Indeed! That will be most excellent. That book's on my most anticipated list.


Mine, too. I will likely try to finagle an autographed copy out of the esteemed Sage Schend, if I can.

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And as much as I can rant about retcons and inconsistencies, this isn't really the thread for it...



Absolutely agreed. Just trying to nudge us back on topic. Sorry if I implied otherwise!


It's a topic that many of us could wax eloquent on... But it's not the topic of this thread, which I myself was partially responsible for derailing.

I wonder what it must be like for clerics of different faiths, when involved in a romantic relationship with each other... That'd be interesting to explore, thinks I.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  19:59:00  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I wonder what it must be like for clerics of different faiths, when involved in a romantic relationship with each other... That'd be interesting to explore, thinks I.



This of course depends on the faiths. It is not like each deity war with all the others. People believe and offer worship to many deities, Clerics just decide to devote life to serving one of them and honor them more then others. Clerics of allied deities should interact fairly well, the closer the dogmas of each compliment the less problem would occur. Clerics of deities that are foes would of course have a hard to imposible time in a successful romance, though each might love each other seeking to redeem the other.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  20:36:13  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



I wonder what it must be like for clerics of different faiths, when involved in a romantic relationship with each other... That'd be interesting to explore, thinks I.



This of course depends on the faiths. It is not like each deity war with all the others. People believe and offer worship to many deities, Clerics just decide to devote life to serving one of them and honor them more then others. Clerics of allied deities should interact fairly well, the closer the dogmas of each compliment the less problem would occur. Clerics of deities that are foes would of course have a hard to imposible time in a successful romance, though each might love each other seeking to redeem the other.



Yeah, I was thinking something like that... But what about faiths that didn't oppose each other, but weren't exactly allies, either? Like a cleric of Sune and a cleric of Helm...

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 05 Apr 2006 :  20:50:30  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Yeah, I was thinking something like that... But what about faiths that didn't oppose each other, but weren't exactly allies, either? Like a cleric of Sune and a cleric of Helm...



This might depend on the personalities of the individual clerics. I can see that some not really interested in in what the other does during working hours, just do not bring work home with you. Others might consider themselves working all the time and might have have too many discussions (arguements) about the value of Law as oposed to free will (Chaos) to make such a romance short lived. Both of course would agree on concept of doing Good, but how it was done causing problems.
Of course it would also depend on alignment, the one step away could have both the same alignment. *wink* , if I did my sums correctly.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  03:01:29  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing. (I once was given the pleasure(???) of working on a submission for a freelance translater working on a 'romance' novel. Maybe I am no romantic, but that stuff seriously made me gag (I have too much respect for my computer and keyboard to actually vomit over such stuff!).


Seconded. Rare is the romance that manages to appeal to me, and almost inevitably, the ones that do are a bit, uhm, unhealthy (power play, fraught with imperfections -- hell, I'm writing one that's a weird variation of Stockholm's Syndrome). No flowers, hearts, and puppies. No declarations of love. No author interference to shove things in prose like "And they knew it was true love" or "He knew she was his soul mate" or "In that moment, he brimmed with love, and it coursed through his soul." No gazing into each other's eyes and reading emotions. Fantasy authors seem inordinately fond of those.

quote:
If one cannot write romance, then to hell with it in the story, the hero doesn't HAVE to get the girl etc.


Zomg yes. So much word McWord of Clan Word with a side of word. Sometimes I feel almost as if all fantasy writers have signed a contract to shove a romance into their stories regardless of whether it's appropriate, suitable, or feasible. Romance, like combat, falls easily into the category of "If you can't do it well, then please don't."
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  03:35:29  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert


Yeah, I was thinking something like that... But what about faiths that didn't oppose each other, but weren't exactly allies, either? Like a cleric of Sune and a cleric of Helm...



This might depend on the personalities of the individual clerics. I can see that some not really interested in in what the other does during working hours, just do not bring work home with you. Others might consider themselves working all the time and might have have too many discussions (arguements) about the value of Law as oposed to free will (Chaos) to make such a romance short lived. Both of course would agree on concept of doing Good, but how it was done causing problems.
Of course it would also depend on alignment, the one step away could have both the same alignment. *wink* , if I did my sums correctly.



I'm not just thinking of the alignment difference, though. To be a cleric of a deity is to be utterly dedicated, heart and soul, to the embodiment of a concept. When two such people, utterly dedicated to concepts that don't oppose each other but don't mesh, either, come together, what is the result? That's what I'd like to see.

Our cleric of Sune is going to be dedicated to romantic love, to spreading beauty around, and to appreciating beauty. Our cleric of Helm is going to be guarding stuff. One will be utterly captivated by a cunningly carved statue of a dryad, the other is going to be drooling over defensive fortifications. Where do these two meet? How do they make it work? That's where the potential is.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36779 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  03:39:53  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand

IMO romance is a very difficult subject to deal with in fantasy if one doesn't want to drift off into the "Realm" of cheesy doctor stories or some such thing. (I once was given the pleasure(???) of working on a submission for a freelance translater working on a 'romance' novel. Maybe I am no romantic, but that stuff seriously made me gag (I have too much respect for my computer and keyboard to actually vomit over such stuff!).


Seconded. Rare is the romance that manages to appeal to me, and almost inevitably, the ones that do are a bit, uhm, unhealthy (power play, fraught with imperfections -- hell, I'm writing one that's a weird variation of Stockholm's Syndrome). No flowers, hearts, and puppies. No declarations of love. No author interference to shove things in prose like "And they knew it was true love" or "He knew she was his soul mate" or "In that moment, he brimmed with love, and it coursed through his soul." No gazing into each other's eyes and reading emotions. Fantasy authors seem inordinately fond of those.


Yeah... Most romance in fantasy novels does feel forced, and a lot of them would be better without it. Of the Realms novels I've read (and I've still got many to read), only a few romances have worked for me: Artus Cimber and Alisanda Rayburton, Liriel and Fyodor, Arilyn and Danilo, and Giogi Wyvernspur and Cat of Ordulin. Most others either don't feel believable, or I don't see enough to form an opinion on it.

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Kentinal
Great Reader

4684 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  04:13:52  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert



Our cleric of Sune is going to be dedicated to romantic love, to spreading beauty around, and to appreciating beauty. Our cleric of Helm is going to be guarding stuff. One will be utterly captivated by a cunningly carved statue of a dryad, the other is going to be drooling over defensive fortifications. Where do these two meet? How do they make it work? That's where the potential is.



Oh I do agree that focus can be very different, some could guard their friend protectively as the other spreads romantic love. The exteme on religious devovition to dogma can make it hard, but rarely does extremes come into play.

Spreading beauty could be painting and hanging pictures, protection can be protecting the pictures and the artist. As far as it goes the "statue of a dryad" could well be under the protection of Helm and in service to Sune, that could bring the two together with a shared interest. Now if the cleric of Helm wants to build a wall around the statue and the Cleric does not want her shielded by such a wall there will be problems. There however are other ways to protect then by building a wall that would not hide beauty. The cleric of Sune could clearly acept a fence or rail to protect the statue as long as the beauty can still be seen and enjoyed. That is why personalities , IMO, will matter more then alignment as to how romance might go. Some will not match up well at all , by being true to their dogma, others clearly can match up well metting the needs of both dogmas.

"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  04:15:34  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Yeah... Most romance in fantasy novels does feel forced, and a lot of them would be better without it. Of the Realms novels I've read (and I've still got many to read), only a few romances have worked for me: Artus Cimber and Alisanda Rayburton, Liriel and Fyodor, Arilyn and Danilo, and Giogi Wyvernspur and Cat of Ordulin. Most others either don't feel believable, or I don't see enough to form an opinion on it.



I don't read romance novels, full stop, so I'm not sure if I could compare and say whether the forced romance thing is unique to fantasy. But yes, fantasy authors seem much more inclined to launch into flowery inner monologues about how deeply people adore their lovers.

Partly, I think, it's because most fantasy settings are faux-medieval Europe, and people think medieval Europe equals chivalric romances. Hence, the superlative male lover and the woman sitting on a pedestal of worship. Then there're the people who think "Oh, they must think old-fashioned and stuff," so they stuff their prose and dialogue full of grandoise proclamations. Perhaps the presence of magic and gods that really exist make the idea of fated love stronger, more plausible, so that gets shoved in, too. (Not to mention reincarnated love. Wtf, Marion Zimmer Bradley?) There's the "the power of true love will be magic so strong it'll topple the Dark Lord yaay!" crap. Of course, some people can't write believable romantic relationships period, and... well, I've got nothin' on that front.

What amuses me is how dishonest authors can be when it comes to their characters' romances. It's always one true love, not a fling or one true lust; no infatuation, but stable, eternal adoration. The woman's often virginal, as if the hymen is sacred or something. If the man has had other lovers before, said lovers will be either whores or female dogs. If he's a ladies' man, he'll find the heroine or the Designated Love Interest to be the "right woman" to make him settle down. If there's a love triangle, it's almost always obvious which man/woman the hero/ine will choose, because the writer will tip the scale so badly it's not funny (one girl will be intelligent and feisty; the other vapid, manipulative, or both. One boy will be down-to-earth but witty; the other slimy and snobbish and rich).

To narrow it down, the FR romances I've found unconvincing tend to feel to me like connect-the-dots artifices. Maybe it's because there are too many combat sequences, such that they don't have the time to show their emotional development and inter-character interaction (even though I maintain that it's possible to do this in fight scenes -- most people just don't manage it). Sometimes it's a complete and utter lack of passion (Cadderly/Danica, Ilsevele/Araevin); other times it's the overabundance of saccharine, gag-worthy declarations of TWU WUV (Narm/Shandril -- hell, this pairing even has the dreaded "they look at each other across the room and lo, it is true love!" cliche. Good grief).

Edited by - Winterfox on 06 Apr 2006 04:56:07
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1618 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  05:19:22  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I for one do not read Fr novels for the romance aspect. Though my favorite would be Azoun and his Filferil(sp?), his queen. Even though the former king indulged in other.... ahhh trists, he and the queen seemed to have the ultimate romance, realmswise.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  05:27:40  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I must actually agree with Winterfox.

*Christmas begins in the Nine Hells, JK*

For me, the main problem is the fact that a lot of writers seem to have a problem writing "epic romance" well. Delly and Wulgar is an example of the problem of writing a 'real' romance in the Realms. For one, the fact is that Real Romances are rarely something you want to read about. Real Romance is often driven by lust, neediness, financial or mental circumstances, and frankly can be quite ugly to look upon. They also more often than not end up being something that breaks up rather badly or ends up with disappointments. Same book as Spine of the World was the pregnant commoner girl. It's a story straight out of all too much real life and quite bluntly, why the hell do I want to read about it?

Cadderly and Danica for me was a wonderful romance....right up until he became a Chosen. After that, Cadderly changed from a shy bookish nerd with too much thought of himself that Danica could compensate for the faults of to a demigod like Elminster. After this, Danica and he should have broken up honestly since she now doesn't have pairity with the man. The only role she exists to have beside him is as his follower really. Frankly, the way Cadderly is written now, its difficult to imagine him having any romances with his divine needs overwhelming him so much.

Alot of times, there's also a lot of weird unwritten assumptions that are playing in readers minds. If I may bring up a funny story from the Forgotten Realms boards when they still had a novels sections (and please correct me if I got it wrong Elaine) there was a backlash on the boards against Arilyn having an affair with Woodchuck (I'm sorry, I can't remember the Wood Elf's actual name). Now I think Elaine assumed initially by her posts that fans were more angered that Arilyn had lost her virginity to him and it was a rather stereotypical "maiden's honor thing" but several fans piped in that they wouldn't have minded Arilyn being sexually promiscuous. It was the fact that she had an emotional bond with the elf that annoyed them.

(There was also a funny story about Elaine's husband's reaction to the affair with the Elf I believe. It's not my story to tell though)

Chemistry is a hard thing to write really. For me, Alustriel and Drizzt are perfect for one another as RA writes Alustriel. However, I think it was only vaguely implied he had sex for the first time in the Orc Trilogy (and not with Cattie). Not only is there a parity issue, its also difficult to see what the two see in each other. Yet, describing it is difficult. It just feels off.

I'm not one of those fans whom is prudish about his fantasy. Give me harems, mad lust, and possessive desire in my books as motivations anytime. I also think that Forgotten Realms books has often numerous refreshing takes on certain romantic cliches. However, I also think its possible that authors can occasionally lose track of the story as well. As I mentioned before, the problem with the Spine of the World wasn't for me that it had a long and involved plot about sex and pregnancy it was the fact that it really didn't engage me as a reader.

To a certain extent, the unreality of sexuality in Forgotten Realms does occasionally bug me. I would not want to read about a fantasy world where women are expected to sit in their place or that sexuality is solely restricted between true wuv or in the bounds of marriage. Frankly, its never happened in history and its kind of frightening to my mindset that people might want a world like that (but this isn't the place to discuss my morality). However, Elminster's Daughter aside (and she's remarkably forgiving) its amazing we don't see more people with a chip on their shoulder for economic or social reasons.

Azoun has what? 100 children? Does any of them regret being left fatherless? Does he provide for them financially? Hell, does he KNOW all of them? One of the nastiest tricks a DM ever pulled on us was a PCs entire story arc being pulled out from the rug of him as the DM laughingly had my character revealed as another one of his wild oats.

I don't want FR to turn prudish and against Ed's vision (long live the sixties and progressive depictions of fantasy) but it'd be nice for someone to comment on Azoun being a deadbeat dad sometime. I don't mind Allusair having a harem of her own (and that's what her "guards" amount to) but I also wonder if she's been magically warded against pregnancy or other things. I don't know, maybe I'm questioning too much of fiction not designed to answer these questions.

But yes, if romance is supposed to be engaging for a reader then it not only has to be realistic in some respects (I.e. I don't think ANYONE can pull off love at first sight anymore) but it also has to have a slightly unrealistic quality of parity to it. As much as I love Jo Grant from Doctor Who and Pertwee's Doctor, I tend to think only a fellow Time Lord in Romana was good enough for a romantic interest.

This of course has NO basis in reality.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 06 Apr 2006 05:31:00
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  05:29:01  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't mind knowing more about Fil's lovers honestly.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:03:30  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

I for one do not read Fr novels for the romance aspect.


Yes, yes, you and everyone else who insists that Realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else. But badly done romances are badly done romances, no matter where they're placed. Badly done anything has no excuse. As I said, romances? If you can't write it, then for the love of all that's well-written, don't.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

For me, the main problem is the fact that a lot of writers seem to have a problem writing "epic romance" well. Delly and Wulgar is an example of the problem of writing a 'real' romance in the Realms. For one, the fact is that Real Romances are rarely something you want to read about. Real Romance is often driven by lust, neediness, financial or mental circumstances, and frankly can be quite ugly to look upon. They also more often than not end up being something that breaks up rather badly or ends up with disappointments. Same book as Spine of the World was the pregnant commoner girl. It's a story straight out of all too much real life and quite bluntly, why the hell do I want to read about it?


I do. :P I love complicated romances; I love painful break-ups. Give me mentally unhealthy lovers; let them twist each other. I love seeing people who think they were in unconditional, wonderful love realize that they aren't, and that they aren't compatible at all. It makes me smile when a woman leaves the nice farmboy because, hey, a nobleman's interested and life would be loads better to go live in his estate or something. My whole gripe with most fantasy romances is that they're too idealistic and happy. Perfect anything is boring, boring, boring. I don't want to read about it. There's a reason it's difficult to portray Heaven in an exciting way -- complete, eternal bliss brings no conflict, and neither do characters who can do no wrong. Conflict is the heart of all stories. No conflict, no plot, no drama.

quote:
After this, Danica and he should have broken up honestly since she now doesn't have pairity with the man. The only role she exists to have beside him is as his follower really. Frankly, the way Cadderly is written now, its difficult to imagine him having any romances with his divine needs overwhelming him so much.


Oh, yeah. Cadderly devolves from bookish nerd to self-righteous, holy book-thumping arse really fast. So funny how he gave up the idea of spending long and fruitful years with Danica in a heartbeat to build Spirit Soaring, getting his lifespan dramatically shortened in the process. It's so obvious that Danica's a comforting blanket, not an actual partner. Funnier still when Salvatore decides he has to be rewarded by a return of his youth. Bitch, please. He can have his cake and eat it too? Heavens forbid he faces real consequences of a decision to value his god over his lover.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:08:48  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well for me Winterfox, the whole problem is that frankly I find such drivel about 'real life' to be uninteresting and lazy writing. I don't read biographies, so why would I read about how Joe Paladin worrying about sterility? I'm all for nasty breakups, disappointments, and the like but give me characters that are INTERESTING than 'real.'

Well there's no reason Deneir should waste his Chosen frankly. Though it always does bug me in the fact that Deneir is portrayed as apparently a thunderous rampaging god of Old Testament Power while, well, he's not that really even NOTICIBLE in the importance of the Realms.

Oghma...Tyr....Ilmater...I mean there's plenty of other gods here and all Greater Gods.


My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1618 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:10:35  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by scererar

I for one do not read Fr novels for the romance aspect.


Yes, yes, you and everyone else who insists that Realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else. But badly done romances are badly done romances, no matter where they're placed. Badly done anything has no excuse. As I said, romances? If you can't write it, then for the love of all that's well-written, don't.

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

For me, the main problem is the fact that a lot of writers seem to have a problem writing "epic romance" well. Delly and Wulgar is an example of the problem of writing a 'real' romance in the Realms. For one, the fact is that Real Romances are rarely something you want to read about. Real Romance is often driven by lust, neediness, financial or mental circumstances, and frankly can be quite ugly to look upon. They also more often than not end up being something that breaks up rather badly or ends up with disappointments. Same book as Spine of the World was the pregnant commoner girl. It's a story straight out of all too much real life and quite bluntly, why the hell do I want to read about it?


I do. :P I love complicated romances; I love painful break-ups. Give me mentally unhealthy lovers; let them twist each other. I love seeing people who think they were in unconditional, wonderful love realize that they aren't, and that they aren't compatible at all. It makes me smile when a woman leaves the nice farmboy because, hey, a nobleman's interested and life would be loads better to go live in his estate or something. My whole gripe with most fantasy romances is that they're too idealistic and happy. Perfect anything is boring, boring, boring. I don't want to read about it. There's a reason it's difficult to portray Heaven in an exciting way -- complete, eternal bliss brings no conflict, and neither do characters who can do no wrong. Conflict is the heart of all stories. No conflict, no plot, no drama.

quote:
After this, Danica and he should have broken up honestly since she now doesn't have pairity with the man. The only role she exists to have beside him is as his follower really. Frankly, the way Cadderly is written now, its difficult to imagine him having any romances with his divine needs overwhelming him so much.


Oh, yeah. Cadderly devolves from bookish nerd to self-righteous, holy book-thumping arse really fast. So funny how he gave up the idea of spending long and fruitful years with Danica in a heartbeat to build Spirit Soaring, getting his lifespan dramatically shortened in the process. It's so obvious that Danica's a comforting blanket, not an actual partner. Funnier still when Salvatore decides he has to be rewarded by a return of his youth. Bitch, please. He can have his cake and eat it too? Heavens forbid he faces real consequences of a decision to value his god over his lover.



thanks for the nice reply, as always winterfox, lets quote my whole post next time eh . I did not say anything about my "insisting" that realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else, let alone about the words you put out here before me.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:14:37  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eh, everyone gets swept away now and then in posts.

Why DO you read them to clarify friend? ;-)

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  06:50:09  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scererar

thanks for the nice reply, as always winterfox, lets quote my whole post next time eh . I did not say anything about my "insisting" that realms novels are about flashy sword and sorcery and nothing else, let alone about the words you put out here before me.


Wow, is there even a point to quoting even the bits I replied to Charles rather than you? Notice that it necessitates a lot more scrolling? It's called forum etiquette not to mess up the table/page length.

So, if you say you don't read Realms novels for romances, it's apparently you consider that an unimportant aspect. Do you excuse bad romances because they "aren't what you read the novels for"? What do you consider important in a Realms novel?

quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Well for me Winterfox, the whole problem is that frankly I find such drivel about 'real life' to be uninteresting and lazy writing. I don't read biographies, so why would I read about how Joe Paladin worrying about sterility? I'm all for nasty breakups, disappointments, and the like but give me characters that are INTERESTING than 'real.'


*shrugs* For me, interesting and real are two parts of the same package. If it's not realistic, then it probably isn't going to be interesting to me.

Edited by - Winterfox on 06 Apr 2006 06:51:10
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:17:57  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... Spine of the World... in retrospect I'd say it was one of the most intimate stories I read in the FR. When I was reading the book, however, I thought differently. The entire Mekare (sp?) situation was not only confusing me, but I was wondering what the bloody hell all this had to do with Wulfgar...

There was more depth in that novel than in many others that dealt with Drizzt and his merry men. I prefer such novels as well, although it, IMHO, could have been more detailed. I loved the demon-ridden Wulfgar part.

Fun stuff!

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:25:02  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, to show how our tastes yin and yang. I loved the story...

and I've gradually grown to hate it.

It went from "Wow, this is what being a commoner in the Realms is like!" to "Gods darnit, why did I even read that?"

But I won't fault RA's writing for it.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader

Germany
2296 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2006 :  09:47:22  Show Profile  Visit Mace Hammerhand's Homepage Send Mace Hammerhand a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Yeah, to show how our tastes yin and yang.



Want me to apply some Wolfpack 'loving' to your stories?
I swear, I (hopefully) prevented one person to ever write a single word of prose again, and he was better off without writing. (Not to mention we (the entire world) were better off!)
But seriously, I agree with you assessment, our preferences couldn't be more different.
Maybe you get to the point where assorted action scenes become a bore to you as well

Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware!
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