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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:12:50  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
To talk about the subject of romance in Forgotten Realms, I thought I'd open this topic.

However, before we begin a quick reminder.

Don'ts

* This is not a place to express distaste for sexual mores in FR.

* Don't insult any pairings.

* DOUBLE DO NOT speculate on the author's relationships with their characters.

Do's

* Discuss your favorite romances in FR and why they appeal to you.

* Do discuss what you'd like to see romantic wise.

* Do discuss the relationship with the gods displayed in canon and romance.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 01 Apr 2006 09:18:00

Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:16:47  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My favorite romances in Forgotten Realms are probably Arilyn and Danillo but also Danillo and Bronwyn. For me, its difficult to choose which romance I like more between the two. It's quite an irony. The two women in the pairings are remarkably similiar in many ways but torn in different directions. Honestly, if I had to choose I'd probably say I prefer Bronwyn and Danillo because she seems more ready for a relationship than Arilyn....yet ironically now Danillo has a understanding with the Half-Elven lady.

I also strangely like the failed romance of Elaith Craulnobler and Amnestria. Frankly, I never much saw much in the way of affection from Arilyn's father Bran while Elaith clearly pines for the woman years afterwards. While Elaith is evil, its clear that he deeply regrets his failure with her.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 01 Apr 2006 09:19:36
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:18:44  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Don'ts

* This is not a place to express distaste for sexual mores in FR.

* Don't insult any pairings.

* DOUBLE DO NOT speculate on the author's relationships with their characters.
I'm quoting this because, due to the recent spread of unproductive postings regarding this subject matter here at Candlekeep, it deserves to be reinforced before discussions begin. No further breaches will be tolerated and ALL offending posts WILL be removed.

Remember, FR authors whose characters and works you are discussing regularly visit Candlekeep and read these scrolls. We want them to feel welcome and enjoy Candlekeep as a place where their works are discussed intelligently and without unconstructive criticism.

Now, let us begin...

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 01 Apr 2006 09:23:46
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:28:54  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To clarify Mr. Moderator, I think its possible to not have enjoyed a pairing (I didn't much care for Kelemvor and Midnight, plus Galareon with his love interests) plus even discuss the reasons why without resorting to name calling or insults.

Criticisms I'm hoping can remain solely within the realm of "I didn't believe that an individual raised by an adoptive parent would become attracted to that person" rather than bringing up connotations that exist in our world.

If we must solely keep this thread within the realms of discussing the positive though and not chance fate, I'm happy to do so though.

Just for this thread's benefit?

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 01 Apr 2006 09:29:18
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
Admin

United Kingdom
5582 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:32:27  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

I'm quoting this because, due to the recent spread of unproductive postings regarding this subject matter here at Candlekeep, it deserves to be reinforced before discussions begin. No further breaches will be tolerated and ALL offending posts WILL be removed.

Remember, FR authors whose characters and works you are discussing regularly visit Candlekeep and read these scrolls. We want them to feel welcome and enjoy Candlekeep as a place where their works are discussed intelligently and without unconstructive criticism.

Now, let us begin...




Well met

Very well said, Sage. And thank ye Charles for posting a list of Do's and Don'ts.

Indeed, with the recent flavor of discussions, think carefully before posting herein, we do not want to have to lock this thread before it's even started. Id be interested to read of any particular scenes from ye all, but let it be done in a better manner this time

Alaundo
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31690 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:36:32  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

If we must solely keep this thread within the realms of discussing the positive though and not chance fate, I'm happy to do so though.

Just for this thread's benefit?
I think we should just leave it there for now... and see how this scroll goes. If it looks like some scribes are finally willing to discuss such concepts intelligently and within the context of appropriate criticism... we can expand the scroll's scope to include what you said earlier.

Fair enough?

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage

Edited by - The Sage on 01 Apr 2006 09:37:06
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:39:33  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Righto.

Do's

Talk about your favorite couples, what you like about romances in the Realms, what roles you think the religions play in the Realms novels lives, and other elements positive in the storylines.

We'll wait for the Mod's permission for negative aspects.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  09:48:53  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks, I think that its better to confront issues head on. People have a lot to say about the issue here clearly but they have a lot of feelings that makes it quite unsuitable to post. I'd like to think we can sort the very interesting stuff from the insulting parts.

For me, I think that a good part of FR's attitudes towards sensuality starts with the gods themselves. I'd like to keep suggesting that people's objections towards sensual attitudes aren't necessarily grounded in THEIR upbringing and instead focus on the Realms version of things (I know that sentence probably didn't make much sense but its hard to tap dance around the issue delicately). The Realms side of things being that there are numerous gods and goddesses that are deliberately focused on promoting a libertine lifestyle.

Sune, Sharess, Hanelli, Llirra, and Shar to an extent are all confirmed to use sensuality as something very strong in their religions. Sune and Hanelli I imagine are perfectly willing to promote long lasting love affairs of deep emotional intimacy but certainly have no objections to more causal flings. We also know that other gods and goddesses probably incorporate elements to a certain extent as well. It's difficult to figure out whether sensuality is a part of Lolth's religion naturally or drow like all elves seem to be quite senusous. The rituals of Xvim that we saw in The Crucible seem to be vaguely sensual as well. Most likely Bane decrees that its merely part of the spoils that the victors should avail themselves to.

FYI- I'm choosing sensual variants for a reason and am indeed aware of my abundant use of them.

It is noteworthy though that concepts like illegitimacy also seem to exist in Forgotten Realms since Azoun's children before his marriage to Filfaeril. Otherwise, it would be his eldest children rather than Alusair and Tanalasta. This seems more to be a purely economic/nobility situation than one based on religion though.

As such, without this concept, illegitimate children may have an honest greviance with their parents for not inheriting anything but have no social stigma to them.

On a related note, Thornhold also forwards that at least the Church of Tyr encourages chastity for its paladins. However, Piergeiron's daughter is clearly not-chaste by her description. Thus it may simply be a case of a wayward daughter while it might also be that chastity is only desired for Paladins (the reaction of Bronwyn's father to her indicates this is not the case though).

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 01 Apr 2006 09:52:44
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  14:58:25  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Let's see, pairings that I think don't work first.

  • Narm and Shandril -- it became painful after a while because, in general, Narm has no life outside Shandril's happiness. He has no goals, no aspirations, no anything; in the first book, he speaks of exacting revenge for his dead parents, but that never came to anything. To say that the books focused too much on Shandril would be ridiculous, because after all she's the protagonist, but there's something not quite right when her lover amounts to a little puppy following her around -- without her, he'd literally be worth nothing and have little life. It also doesn't help that he never develops much of a spine or power: he exists mostly to be a scratching post, a comfy doormat, and a damsel in distress. Their love at first sight -- and the fact that they had sex within about... five minutes of knowing each other -- wasn't very convincing, either.

  • Karasendrieth and Dorn -- just... what? No, really, what? The lack of chemistry between them is startling. Their romance seems almost obligatory.

  • Ilsevele and Araevin -- one of the most perfunctory couples ever. I've ranted at some length in threads relevant to the Last Mythal trilogy, but it bears repeating. The way they interact with each other is incredibly stilted; androids would have better chemistry going. Ilsevele is also too much of a "grrl power rawr" type so common in fantasy: so much as breath a hint that she's less than independent and capable, and she'd be ready to snap and hiss. Her bossing around Araevin doesn't make them seem particularly loving; she comes across as shrewish rather than firm.

  • Cadderly and Danica -- I cracked up every time they had one of their little "philosophical" discussions. That Danica is a cipher for Cadderly to speak at was painfully obvious; she put forth just the right questions, the right straw man arguments, for Cadderly to respond to. She was never a real, living character, just a mobile mirror for Cadderly to reflect off, and her personality shifted to suit the occasion (here she's feminine and sweet, here she's tough-as-nails, here she's scared and needing Cadderly's protection, here she's "strong and independent"). She also suffers from the same problem as Catti-brie and Ilsevele; the frequent description of her as compassionate and wise directly contradicted her actual personality and deeds. If anything, she's as immature as Cadderly, just in a different way.


I'll come up with what I like later; at the moment, the only romances that work for me I can think of are all non-FR.
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 01 Apr 2006 :  15:19:44  Show Profile  Visit Ethriel's Homepage  Send Ethriel an AOL message Send Ethriel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always liked Danilo/Arilyn personally, and Larael/Khelben. One aspect of Danilo's thing for Arilyn was how easily he accepted her and Foxfire. I know Danilo hadn't been a monk, but I don't think he was going behind Arilyn so to speak after he confessed he loved her.

Also, Lamruil and Mara was done rather well.

Oh, and Quenthel/Danifae. Hotness
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  01:37:20  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
How easily he accepted it? Ethriel, I think he positively freaked actually. Also, I don't think he and Arilyn were actually seeing each other at that point either. They'd just starred in a book together.

;-)

I also think Quenthel and Danifae's appeal is merely err....a very base one to the psyche.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  01:54:14  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Narm and Shandril --t became painful after a while because, in general, Narm has no life outside Shandril's happiness. He has no goals, no aspirations, no anything; in the first book, he speaks of exacting revenge for his dead parents, but that never came to anything. To say that the books focused too much on Shandril would be ridiculous, because after all she's the protagonist, but there's something not quite right when her lover amounts to a little puppy following her around -- without her, he'd literally be worth nothing and have little life. It also doesn't help that he never develops much of a spine or power: he exists mostly to be a scratching post, a comfy doormat, and a damsel in distress. Their love at first sight -- and the fact that they had sex within about... five minutes of knowing each other -- wasn't very convincing, either.


Narm is a damsel in distress and I think that was Ed Greenwood's point with the character. After so many women as ciphers in fantasy stories, he wanted to portray the male member of the story as clearly inferior in many respects to the female member of the hero. Narm's devotion is thus a reversal of gender and one I very much enjoyed. Also, I tend to judge him by the standard that he's clearly out of his depth and nevertheless loves Shandril. I don't think he's a bad wizard anyway, just hardly one up to the levels of the threats he's facing.

I hope we see him again, though I think whatever wife he might get will be a bit nonpulsed by his spellfire ghost girlfriend hanging about. I still was rooting for the pair, sort of like Xander and Buffy.

quote:
Cadderly and Danica -- I cracked up every time they had one of their little "philosophical" discussions. That Danica is a cipher for Cadderly to speak at was painfully obvious; she put forth just the right questions, the right straw man arguments, for Cadderly to respond to. She was never a real, living character, just a mobile mirror for Cadderly to reflect off, and her personality shifted to suit the occasion (here she's feminine and sweet, here she's tough-as-nails, here she's scared and needing Cadderly's protection, here she's "strong and independent"). She also suffers from the same problem as Catti-brie and Ilsevele; the frequent description of her as compassionate and wise directly contradicted her actual personality and deeds. If anything, she's as immature as Cadderly, just in a different way.


I'm a little more forgiving of this couple to be perfectly honest. Danica actually usually is the sensible one of the pair. Whenever Cadderly is about to do something stupid or overanalyze something, Danica usually resolves the issue through wonderful application of brute force. I do agree that neither of the pair is really more mature in the beginning of their relationship though. I think by the end of the story though she's a little too much in awe of Cadderly to have a healthy relationship with him. He becomes "I am the Voice of God and can do no wrong."

Still, they play off one another well I thought in the beginning.

    [*]Wulfgar and Cattie Brie: I actually like this coupling and am a bit distressed at current developments. I very much enjoyed Wulfgar and Catties playing off one another but I also note that they never really addressed the two were raised together. While Cattie is very much a dwarf in human form, Wulfgar seems to utterly cling to his barbarian heritage. However, after his ressurection Wulgar has had numerous children with Succubi and briefly was seriously involved with a wharf prostitute. Cattie also has a 'romance' with no hint of spark whatsoever between her and Drizzt. It's very distressing. I much preferred Alustriel/Drizzt.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  03:51:17  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Narm is a damsel in distress and I think that was Ed Greenwood's point with the character. After so many women as ciphers in fantasy stories, he wanted to portray the male member of the story as clearly inferior in many respects to the female member of the hero. Narm's devotion is thus a reversal of gender and one I very much enjoyed. Also, I tend to judge him by the standard that he's clearly out of his depth and nevertheless loves Shandril. I don't think he's a bad wizard anyway, just hardly one up to the levels of the threats he's facing.


Yes, but extreme anything isn't good. An anti-cliche can be just as irritating as the very thing it tries to oppose; in this case, it's not even an anti-cliche so much as changing just one thing. A damsel in distress is still a damsel in distress no matter the sex: Narm doesn't have much of a character or a presence. He's no more interesting than your typical female who exists only to be rescued and used as a doormat because he has nearly every trait she's expected to have, just without the secondary sexual characteristics -- and given how little gender inequality there exists in the Realms for the most part, this detail becomes even more meaningless.

Really, I don't see how changing one rather superficial part of a very flat, very tired stereotype makes it any better. It's like, oh... a Mary Sue author claiming that her super-powerful, gorgeous character isn't a Sue because she has normal blue eyes.

quote:
I hope we see him again, though I think whatever wife he might get will be a bit nonpulsed by his spellfire ghost girlfriend hanging about. I still was rooting for the pair, sort of like Xander and Buffy.


I wouldn't be surprised to never see him again, though. Given that he has very little in him when Shandril's not there, as a stand-alone character, he wouldn't be able to, well, stand alone.

quote:
I'm a little more forgiving of this couple to be perfectly honest. Danica actually usually is the sensible one of the pair. Whenever Cadderly is about to do something stupid or overanalyze something, Danica usually resolves the issue through wonderful application of brute force. I do agree that neither of the pair is really more mature in the beginning of their relationship though. I think by the end of the story though she's a little too much in awe of Cadderly to have a healthy relationship with him. He becomes "I am the Voice of God and can do no wrong."

Still, they play off one another well I thought in the beginning.


How do you like their philosophical discussions? Do you find them as deep or as stimulating as they're supposed to be? Do you find Danica's responses at all realistic -- or do they just come off as an obvious cipher's? That's my biggest issue with the pairing, not anything else. Their conversations are a laugh a minute because they don't sound like real people at all, just bots in a badly simulated debate. Straw-man arguments everywhere, yes-man responses, and so on.

Then there's their little sex scene, which is as hilarious as it is creepy. (Cadderly contemplates the philosophical implications of mortality and the thought of impregnating Danica right then? Isn't it ... nice of him to see her as a sperm receptacle and an axotl tank.)
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  04:00:35  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well good points on Narm but I liked his personality anyway. I don't need capable characters or devoted ones to necessarily be so in battle.

I don't really recall any real philosophical discussions frankly. Danica is a monk and Cadderly is a priest and they both live in a monastary, that they talk about odd things like faith and its affect don't really strike me as debates but simply things that would pop up in their day to day language.

As for the sex scene, while you're right on the oddity of the thought (such things should be thought of BEFORE sex I would think), its something that does bear probable thought of whether they should have children together. One would hope a more sensible man would think creating life should be discussed but...then again...one has to think one partner should realize the risks or not.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 02 Apr 2006 04:01:43
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  05:17:04  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Well good points on Narm but I liked his personality anyway. I don't need capable characters or devoted ones to necessarily be so in battle.


I thought you liked your heroes to have impact on the Realms? Narm's the very antithesis of that. He barely has a spine.

quote:
As for the sex scene, while you're right on the oddity of the thought (such things should be thought of BEFORE sex I would think), its something that does bear probable thought of whether they should have children together.


I don't think very many people can entertain a thought that coherently during the act itself, at any rate, unless the sex really, really sucks. (No pun intended.)
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  05:32:12  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
I thought you liked your heroes to have impact on the Realms? Narm's the very antithesis of that. He barely has a spine.


I do, I agree with your Narm is hardly going to be a qualified lead. However, as a supporting character he works. You're quite right though that I wouldn't be able to stand the character if he was the focus of a book.

quote:
I don't think very many people can entertain a thought that coherently during the act itself, at any rate, unless the sex really, really sucks. (No pun intended.)


And that is another matter entirely ;-)

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  05:47:53  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm curious -- would you have been able to stand Narm had he been female, and Shandril male?
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  06:08:32  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be honest? Probably not.

I have an occasional affection for utterly useless characters that more intelligent ones are fond of....Jo Grant from Doctor Who for example. However, I admit that a good deal part of my defense was that it was simply good to see a helpless male overwhelmed.

However, folks like Conan's 'love interests' just upset me. I don't mind the occasional bit of reader's eye candy and Bond women equivalent but there's a difference between "there to be the love interest" and "utterly useless twit"

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 02 Apr 2006 06:09:50
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  07:49:23  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've made no secret I didn't much care for Galareon and his romances (I believe the term for what he did is "two timing") or his sister whom brought a child in the world to solely use a weapon. I recognize that this is merely my RL morality though and I'll exclude it from FR discussions. I think though that it was an interesting note on Elvish relationships though that they decidedly have few problems with multiple relationships if Galareon's girlfriend's reaction is any indication. On the other hand, its also clearly not the case for royalty as the late King Zaor's situation with his consort and wife was decidedly less than harmonious.

I am also interested in personally knowing Semmenon's reaction to his consort's relationship with the Priest of Cyric Dag Zoreth. It's possible that he had no feelings whatsoever on the matter to Ashemi having the child of another man (perhaps he's sterile) but I do wonder why Elaine Cunningham simply didn't make Semmenon the head of it.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  07:56:23  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

I think though that it was an interesting note on Elvish relationships though that they decidedly have few problems with multiple relationships if Galareon's girlfriend's reaction is any indication. On the other hand, its also clearly not the case for royalty as the late King Zaor's situation with his consort and wife was decidedly less than harmonious.


Quite frankly, something tells me this isn't a difference of royalty versus non-royal elves, but a matter of writers having different ideas of what the elven mindset is like. Troy Denning portrays Evereskan elves as fine with nudity, but Arilyn -- who's a child of Evereska, half-elven or not -- wasn't very comfortable wearing what she wore in Silver Shadows during a wood elven dance. Likewise, in the Last Mythal trilogy, Araevin and co bathe in seperate pools according to genders. (Somewhere in Farthest Reaches.) Looks like inconsistency to me, plain and simple. The FR canon is a complete, utter mess in so many regards and is riddled with inconsistencies thanks to the willy-nilly retconning/edition changes; why not this, as well?

Similar to Star Wars, really. The more people you have playing in the same sandbox, the messier it will be.

Edited by - Winterfox on 02 Apr 2006 07:57:52
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1144 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  08:01:21  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
To be fair that may just be something of the mind of the real world inconsistencies of people and how they behave to one another. One could try and do a chart of the world's various attitudes to sensualities even amongst a relatively small patch of the world and you'd come up with a huge difference.

I always simply took Arilyn Moonblade to be something of a prude amongst elves even in Elaine Cunningham's books. They have dancing and then sex in the Wood Elf festivals and clearly Evermeet indicates this is a larger trend by Lamauril's letters of the incident.

I don't disagree inconsistencies are possible to prop up but I actually think that a few are fine and make FR more realistic than say...Dragonlance where its very rare you find inconcistencies.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30223 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  17:34:12  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Dragonlance where its very rare you find inconcistencies.




Oh, I will so seriously contest this statement... Not to really get into it, but how about the huge Hammer of Kharas inconsistency in the Chronicles and Legends trilogies? The Hammer was used to forge the first Dragonlances, which were used to end the Third Dragonwar, some 3000 years ago. But we later are told that Kharas forged the Hammer himself, and Kharas was around for the Cataclysm and at least the two centuries following it. Or how about one of the Tales short stories? I think it was "Hearth Cat and Winter Wren" that had Raistlin toss off like 4 polymorph spells in a row -- before the Chronicles even started, when he got tired casting just a couple of 1st level spells.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 02 Apr 2006 17:35:41
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe

USA
272 Posts

Posted - 02 Apr 2006 :  20:30:21  Show Profile  Visit Ethriel's Homepage  Send Ethriel an AOL message Send Ethriel a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

I've made no secret I didn't much care for Galareon and his romances (I believe the term for what he did is "two timing") or his sister whom brought a child in the world to solely use a weapon. I recognize that this is merely my RL morality though and I'll exclude it from FR discussions. I think though that it was an interesting note on Elvish relationships though that they decidedly have few problems with multiple relationships if Galareon's girlfriend's reaction is any indication. On the other hand, its also clearly not the case for royalty as the late King Zaor's situation with his consort and wife was decidedly less than harmonious.

I am also interested in personally knowing Semmenon's reaction to his consort's relationship with the Priest of Cyric Dag Zoreth. It's possible that he had no feelings whatsoever on the matter to Ashemi having the child of another man (perhaps he's sterile) but I do wonder why Elaine Cunningham simply didn't make Semmenon the head of it.




I seriously doubt Semmemon'd take it well...Ashemmi hinted as much and said it was a secret...I'm still wondering why she decided to cuckold Semm
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
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Posted - 03 Apr 2006 :  16:03:52  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

I always simply took Arilyn Moonblade to be something of a prude amongst elves even in Elaine Cunningham's books. They have dancing and then sex in the Wood Elf festivals and clearly Evermeet indicates this is a larger trend by Lamauril's letters of the incident.



Correct me if I'm wrong (please, do!), but didn't Arilyn grow up among humans, rather than elves? And while elves may be fine with co-ed nudity, there's no reason to think humans are. Not even all that comfortable with same-sex nudity, really.

Also, I don't think bathing in segregated pools based on gender is a compromise of consistency in elven levels of "comfort with nudity." There's nothing about it that necessarily implies discomfort with the other gender's lack of clothing. Did Araevin get all flustered and blushy thinking about the elf females being all naked across the way? No. It's been a while since I read the Last Mythal books, but I don't recall any implication of sexual segregation on the basis of discomfort with nudity -- there could be other reasons that don't have to do with sexual repression and stodginess.

But anyway. You were having a lovely chat about romances. Carry on.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe

895 Posts

Posted - 03 Apr 2006 :  17:05:45  Show Profile  Visit Winterfox's Homepage Send Winterfox a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Correct me if I'm wrong (please, do!), but didn't Arilyn grow up among humans, rather than elves? And while elves may be fine with co-ed nudity, there's no reason to think humans are. Not even all that comfortable with same-sex nudity, really.


Uhm, Arilyn grew up in Evereska, and unless Evereska is a community of humans...

quote:
Also, I don't think bathing in segregated pools based on gender is a compromise of consistency in elven levels of "comfort with nudity." There's nothing about it that necessarily implies discomfort with the other gender's lack of clothing. Did Araevin get all flustered and blushy thinking about the elf females being all naked across the way? No. It's been a while since I read the Last Mythal books, but I don't recall any implication of sexual segregation on the basis of discomfort with nudity -- there could be other reasons that don't have to do with sexual repression and stodginess.


Reasons such as?

Besides, the Evereskan elves in Return of the Archwizards get naked in pools regardless of gender. I recall gold elven sisters who think it's fine to get naked in front of male humans.
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
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Posted - 03 Apr 2006 :  17:27:08  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox

quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Correct me if I'm wrong (please, do!), but didn't Arilyn grow up among humans, rather than elves? And while elves may be fine with co-ed nudity, there's no reason to think humans are. Not even all that comfortable with same-sex nudity, really.


Uhm, Arilyn grew up in Evereska, and unless Evereska is a community of humans...


See? I asked to be corrected, and I was. Thanks, WF!

I thought Arilyn left from Evermeet really young, but I guess not. Then again, it has been about 9-10 years since I read Elfshadow.

quote:
quote:
Also, I don't think bathing in segregated pools based on gender is a compromise of consistency in elven levels of "comfort with nudity." [...] There could be other reasons that don't have to do with sexual repression and stodginess


Reasons such as?


I want to make it clear that these offerings are only (hopefully) consistent (that is, logically possible) reasons, not actual reasons. I have no special knowledge of what the appropriate authors / editors intended.

Elves are a passionate people. It's totally possible to become enamored of another elf's form and feel urged to disrupt one's own familial relations (i.e. an elf could feel "lustful" or "adulterous"), and some elves might choose to avoid such possible situations. That isn't necessarily "discomfort" with nudity as a principle.

It's also possible that some elves are possessive of their respective partners and don't wish to expose them to others who might win their fancy.

Customs can vary from family to family. Perhaps that's just the way things are done in Araevin's household, but they're different elsewhere.

And it's always possible that some elves might be more shy about their bodies than others, though that *is* getting into the "discomfort" realm.

I guess it boils down to variety. Just because one or a dozen elves do things one way, that doesn't mean it's supposed to hold true for the rest of the race. Having characteristics as complicated as comfort level with nudity/nakedness/sex defined by one's race is incredibly unrealistic. That would get us into the realm of cliche and stereotyping, and I think, Winterfox, you and I agree that that should be avoided.

Not Anti-Stereotypes ("Elves love dwarves! Yay!"), but variation ("Some elves love dwarves, some elves hate dwarves"). The tendency might be there, but it's not a hard rule.

quote:
Besides, the Evereskan elves in Return of the Archwizards get naked in pools regardless of gender. I recall gold elven sisters who think it's fine to get naked in front of male humans.



I do as well. Though I also seem to recall some who were aghast at the very idea of even associating with humans. Being nude amongst them could be a form of non-sexual intimacy with which they are not comfortable -- it has nothing to do with nudity, but more to do with nakedness, if that distinction makes sense.

Flaunting one's body while one still has power (particularly power to frustrate and fluster) is one thing -- putting oneself on an equal level with naked members of the opposite sex (or even just strangers) is quite another.

Romances?

Cheers

EDIT: What a weird color scheme.

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

Signature of Shameless Self-Promotion +6: Order my sixth novel, Shadow of the Winter King (Amazon, e-signing, Dragonmoon Press)

Also check out my Realms work, most recently Shadowbane: Eye of Justice, out now on e-readers everywhere! (Kindle, Nook)

Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 03 Apr 2006 18:31:51
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