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Feanor_Karnil
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 05:02:59
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Question: Would it be too young for a moon elf raised in the Silver Marches to start adventuring at the age of 32?
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 05:40:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor_Karnil
Question: Would it be too young for a moon elf raised in the Silver Marches to start adventuring at the age of 32?
I would say so. I don't have my manuals available at the moment, but I recall that somewhere between 70 and 100 years is when a elf is determined to have come of age. However, I do believe Drizzt is in his 70's or so ( and yes I know he is Drow and not a moon elf  ). This would be considered very young for an elf. Off the top of my head I would think an elf of 32 years would be the equivilant of about 10 to 12 in human years, maybe even younger. Could a wayward elf, wandering the silver marches, start adventuring, yes, but I think it would have to be under some extreme circumstances. |
Edited by - scererar on 31 Mar 2006 06:15:08 |
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Feanor_Karnil
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 16:39:43
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| Fair enough, I was thinking though that an elf raised in a human society, or at least one not completely elven would be ready at an earlier age for adventuring. Whereas an elf raised in a purely elven society would be ready to adventure somewhere around the age of 100. But yeah, 32 is a tad young. |
We live in a bleak world my friend, where heroes are few and shadows stalk us around every corner.
-Mikai Daerni |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 18:24:14
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I don't think that elves become physically mature much later than humans - perhaps mid-20s rather than ten years earlier. But it does seem that there are cultural reasons why elves aren't generally considered adult until they reach 100+. The elven mind-set seems to be that humans are always in a hurry, and that elves have longer lives and can take their time doing things. An elf brought up by humans might well start adventuring younger, but I'd expect them to lack some elven traits - no extra weapon proficiencies, for example - and I'd expect other elves would treat them as children. Also, there's numerous references to Elven Reverie and other abilities, which I assume they learn from other elves while growing up.
So ultimately I'd allow a PC that age if I was DMing the game, but I would not allow them the full range of Elven abilities and I would impose some "social" consequences when around other elves. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 19:55:23
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Personally, I think 32 is a little young.
However, if Liriel Baenre can be an almost level 20 character at 40 years old, it's not impossible for a fledgeling elf to be a green adventurer at 32.  |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 20:46:35
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| Most Elves according to 3.5 begin play at 110 years old and the realms sources in 3.5 do not contradict the PHB on this at least for moon elves. That being said Drizzt and Liriel are both significantly under this age and I also believe that Fflar Starbrow, who is a moon elf, was 60 when he was captain in Myth Drannor's army. All these characters have exceptional circumstances that justify an early start to an adventuring career. With all of the recent wars occurring in the North such as the war with the Shadovar, the daemonfey and Obould's army, it seems reasonable that an elf may have to take to adventuring at a younger age than the standard listed age. Also you might want to check out the complete book of elves from 2e, it has a good description of how quickly elves reach maturity. I would recommend closer to Drizzt and Fflar's age such as between 60-80. But I am fairly certain that your elf character would be physically fully developed at 32. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 09:38:35
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Well with the Drow novels that RAS and Elaine both did, they had both characters being pretty much physically mature at the same rate as humans for the most part.
I would allow the player to have his 32 year old elf, however he needs to come up with a very convincing background to allow for it.
Drow, tend to throw their children into to the water right off, so it is sink or swim for them. While the other elve races, tend to coddle their children. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2006 : 15:08:20
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Well with the Drow novels that RAS and Elaine both did, they had both characters being pretty much physically mature at the same rate as humans for the most part.
Drow mature faster than surface elves, and Liriel was much older than thirty-two in Daughter of the Drow. (I can't remember how old exactly, but she appears about seventeen. I imagine she's at least twice that old.)
I also understand that elves physically mature at the same rate as humans. They're just allowed to be children much, much longer. Drow don't have this luxury due to the nature of their society and culture. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 20:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Well with the Drow novels that RAS and Elaine both did, they had both characters being pretty much physically mature at the same rate as humans for the most part.
Drow mature faster than surface elves, and Liriel was much older than thirty-two in Daughter of the Drow. (I can't remember how old exactly, but she appears about seventeen. I imagine she's at least twice that old.)
I also understand that elves physically mature at the same rate as humans. They're just allowed to be children much, much longer. Drow don't have this luxury due to the nature of their society and culture.
Hence, why I said a "regular" elf should have a very good story background for being out at that young of an age. |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 23:34:00
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Ok, mates, I wondered for a long time if elves mature physically as fast as humans. And I noticed that, in many cases of persons who said that elves reach adulthood as quickly as humans, it was more their own desire to be so due to an emotional discomfort about such a long childhood (someone said to me "I do not like the idea of having the elves in diapers for 50 years or more") rather than a conclusion based on solid arguments. As for me, I'm prone to think that elves mature slower than humans relying on the next points (keep in mind that this is independent of my personal preference, this I'm not fond at all of an attitude like "this feature will be this way because I like it so" ; if I have proof of something, I will keep it as it is, even if I don't like it) :
1. If humans and elves mature at the same rate, we reach a very strange situation where we have a race which has a lifespan ten times longer than humans, but a childhood as long as them ; which would be quite unbelievable ; moreso, the childhood of the elves would represent only 2-4% of their total lifespan ; which would be a percent less not only than all the other intelligent races, but less even than the non-inteligent races, which mature quickly, for obvious reasons.
2. It would be quite unbelievable that elves would let their youngster, after they become physically fully developed, to "play around" when we all know the breeding problems which they face. You all say "they have time". Sorry, they don't have time. Elves are severely outnumbered by all their rivals, so it is in their best interest that their youngster to become adventurers immediately after they were physically capable of wielding weapons. Having in mind the constant pressure they have to face on the mainland and the numerical superiority of their enemies (too many too count), it would be totally iresponsible from their leaders to delay the starting of the adventuring career of their youngster for more than 80 years. If a race did that, I would have to wonder if they are not mentally retarded.
3. Winterfox says : " also understand that elves physically mature at the same rate as humans. They're just allowed to be children much, much longer". Well, this raises a problem : why all the books indicate 100 as the starting age for adventuring ? The standard answer ("they are allowed to be children much longer") does not satisfy me at all. Because it uses a cultural criterias, while for all the other races the books use a biological standard. The starting age for humans is 15 ; then they reach adulthood from a biological point of view ; but then why they would use a cultural criteria for the elves ? That would be a bad mark for the authors, because a cultural criteria is not set in stone : it can change - and quite often I would say. Maybe there are human societies which allow their youngsters to be children until 20 (as we do today). Second, if an elf is phisically developed at the age of 20, I don't understand why the books don't set the starting age much earlier. There is something which you all seem to miss : *the books don't set the age when someone becomes an adventurer, they specify the age when that person CAN become an adventurer*. A human can become an adventurer at the age of 15, but that does not mean they all do it at that age, on the contrary, I believe that those who start so early are a minority. If an elf is PHISICALLY DEVELOPED AT THE AGE OF 25, this should have been the age pointed by the manuals, not when their society says they are ready, because the opinion of the society can be changed.
4. The manual Cormanthyr - Empire of elves shows that, during their childhood, which last until 40-60 years for surface elves, they have great penalties to strength, dexterity and constitution. THIS INDICATES A BODY NOT FULLY DEVELOPED.
This were the reasons why I doubted that the elves physically mature at the same rate as humans. But I took the easy way out and asked an author : Steven Schend, from Cormanthyr-Empire of the Elves, which is the most important book for the elves from Forgotten Realms. Look what he said :
"Any elf under 50 is socially and PHYSICALLY a child, though bear in mind that elven adolescence (i.e. they're starting to look like mature adults) is slow and ponderous and goes probably from age 40 through
age 100. After 100, I'd say they're able to have kids et al. An example--I'd say Legolas of LOTR strikes me as an elven late-adolescent palling around with humans and the like and not nearly the serious mien of an adult elf."
So, the elves do not physically mature at the same rate as humans. Debate over.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2006 : 23:47:28
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| You can also do a search through Ed's 2005 files for puberty and see that elves do not mature/reach puberty at the same rate as humans, which makes sense since elven gestation is two years, not 9 months. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 01:37:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
You can also do a search through Ed's 2005 files for puberty and see that elves do not mature/reach puberty at the same rate as humans, which makes sense since elven gestation is two years, not 9 months.
I'm a little too daunted by sorting through the numerous files of Mr. Greenwood, but I do believe that drow enter puberty at around 30, no? In Rite of Blood Liriel is mentioned entering her "Asherlexten Decade" of adolescence or whatever the hells Bythnara called it, and it took place before the Starlight & Shadows trilogy, so I don' think it's too improbable to think that that's how old Liriel was during that novella. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 01:57:15
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Here's Ed's actual reply... from 30th May 2005 -
"May 30, 2005: Hello, all. ISP problems kept Ed offline for a day (during which I see some good questions have arrived), but he’s “back on” now, and herewith answers the last Phoebus questions: “I think most people have a good idea regarding what a human of reasonable ambition and means can achieve in her first, say, 35 years of life (putting her in her peak, if you will). How does an Elf compare? Does a Mountain Dwarf or a Moon Elf really need to hit 250-300 years before his drive brings him to the same skill level as the aforementioned lady, or is it more a case of plateauing early and just relaxing through the rest of life? I understand the concept of different races = different mentalities/philosophies, but I've always felt that carrying this over to the "game" portion of the Realms (to maintain "game balance", for example) is a bit contrived.”
Ed replies:
Phoebus, I quite agree that this racial differentiation seems contrived, though I don’t disagree with trying to make the races different (and the colour that brings to the game, which can of course be readily ignored by players and DMs not wanting to include it).
However, the ‘big shift’ of the Realms to bring it to the ‘broad tapestry of reality’ that the world first started to see it in published form as having, involved my adapting it to the (1st Edition, unfolding) D&D rules, and this slow maturing of the demi-human races was present in those rules, so it’s there in the Realms.
I think of it like this: given proper amounts of nourishment (as opposed to, say, starved slavery) elves and dwarves physically mature about ten years later than their human counterparts, so that they stop looking like obvious children at about age 20 or 21 rather than 10 or 11. I don’t mean that they stop growing or even looking older - - I mean demihuman individuals stop seeming obviously immature to other races observing them at about that age (members of their own race can judge their approximate age far more accurately, given a ‘good look’ at an individual).
I don’t think demihumans are sexually mature when they stop looking like children; I believe achieving puberty takes at least another 80 years, and possibly as much as 120.
The time ‘in between’ being truly human and being sexually mature is the time in which demihumans start to grow up socially. So an elf or dwarf between, say, 20 and 100 can’t become pregnant or impregnate anyone, and so can sexually ‘play’ free of some social responsibilities. At the same time, they are dominated by surging hormones (and hence, mood swings), and are especially susceptible to all sorts of diseases (which they inevitably catch, and conquer). Also, during this long onset of puberty, their bones are still hardening, and in soft state lack some strength that saves them from breakages in some calamities, but also robs them of some accuracy that they’ll master later.
For elves and halflings, this prolonged adolescence is dominated, for most but not all individuals (so a PC adventurer could well be one of the exceptions, if desired) by judged-by-most-humans-as-wildly-frivolous-or-silly play, leading to an inability to stick with any one task or even pressing need for long (no attention span, a seeming complete inability to take consequences or impending disaster seriously).
For dwarves and gnomes, adolescence is dominated by a fierce, exploring independence that leads the younglings to be stubborn, proud, difficult, bad ‘team-players,’ and prone to racing off on quests or solo explorations.
Perhaps “ungovernable” is a good term to describe both the elves and dwarves. Isolated or in conditions of war or flight, they will, yes, be forced to ‘grow up’ or perish, but in terms of being trainable to specific skills (represented in the game by class abilities, skills, and feats) - - no, that comes later, at different rates for each individual. This is probably best simulated by having a favourite hobby or pastime (such as acrobatics, or archery, or a skill at identifying metals or the rocks that hold metallic ores) being mastered in this adolescence, leading to proper skills later.
This DOESN’T mean that every adolescent demihuman is a hopeless, helpless, dithering [and pouting or flipping out whenever spoken to or guided] crazy - - it just means that they’re unreliable, and can’t muster the drive to master any one thing. Unlike humans, they’re so rapt (lost) in experiencing the world and absorbing their cultures (song, dance, playing musical instruments, the lore of aeons, forge-craft, knowing stone by smell - taste - texture, divining directions underground and where water is, lineages and feuds and tribal tales, etc.) that they master everything a tiny bit at a time, not one skill and then another.
By the time 250 to 300 years of age is reached, demihumans are masters of their own bodies, world-view and awareness, and so can begin to acquire task skills (classes) and at the same time have a natural restlessness stirring that goads them into having the sort of personal drive, patience, and foresight that humans have (and that their own elders just go on developing more and more of, until death). This in turn makes them want to accomplish things, have adventures (as opposed to playing games) and so on.
In short, if an elf lass escapes from slavery at age eight to wander alone - - yes, she has no one to play with, and a need to master feeding herself and keeping herself safe, so she would ‘grow up’ pretty quickly (WITHOUT all the ‘lore of the People’ that an elf growing up far more slowly, with other elves, would possess). If the same escaped elf lass was found very swiftly by elves who took her in and raised her in an elf society, she’d mature more slowly with all of the usual play and blithe merriment.
This is my view, of course, not enshrined in the game. It’s what *I* think of the races as being, in the Realms, but feel free to disagree. I’ll be very interested in your opinion.
So saith Ed.
Nice solid trio of posts, to good questions. Thanks, Phoebus!
love to all,
THO"
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 02:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<SNIP>
As always, Ed more than delivers.
Still, Elaine's stance on adolescence somewhat opposes his, as in her work drow enter it within thirty years, as my previous post noted.
However, puberty and adolescence are two different things: the former being the reaching of sexual maturity and the latter being the epoch of mature/individual mindset; puberty is physical and adolescence psychological.
Ergo, theoretically Ed and Elaine's views could coincide, drow reaching adult mindset in addition to being capable of carnal escapades, but still unable to actually reproduce.
It's not exactly the most sensible thing, but it's not improbable.
But brah, 'tis not that significant. Variety equals more fun. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 04:44:10
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| I can see the reasons for a Drow to mature more rapidly than a surface Elf, survival of the fittest, period!. However in the norm of a society of surface elves, 32 would be entirely too young to go out on his/ her own. Special circumstances could alter this though. |
Edited by - scererar on 03 Apr 2006 04:45:15 |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 07:33:41
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| Also drow live less than surface elves, so it's normal to habe a shorter childhood. A drow ends his childhood at the age of 30, while they live around 500-600 years (and seldom 700), while a gold elf for instance can live around 700-800, even come close to 1000, so it's normal to end their childhood at the age of 60. |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 16:04:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor_Karnil
Question: Would it be too young for a moon elf raised in the Silver Marches to start adventuring at the age of 32?
There has been some very engaging discussion here (as always; this issue always seems to spark interest), but I would say:
In Rules: Yes. Far too young to really start, barring some exceptional circumstance.
In Realms Cannon: There are more than a few examples of “young” elves adventuring and having much success. So it’s not too bad, just not common. (The RAW being what is considered common.)
In *my* Realms: 32 is a fine age to adventure, considering that you’ve been fully physically mature for about 10-15 years already. Mental maturity, as always, is debatable. :p
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-- C.S. Lewis |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 18:50:57
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quote:
There are more than a few examples of “young” elves adventuring and having much success. So it’s not too bad, just not common. (The RAW being what is considered common.)
Who ?
I'm kinda intrigued about this issue : all the canon material specify that elves reach adulthood around 100. The first manual who disagrees is Races of the Wild, and this one is quite recent, when it appeared the idea that "elves reach physycal maturity at the same rate, but they are allowed to be children much longer blah, blah" was already circulating. So, in fact, I would like to ask : what is the original source of this theory ? |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 02:57:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
There are more than a few examples of “young” elves adventuring and having much success. So it’s not too bad, just not common. (The RAW being what is considered common.)
Who ?
I'm kinda intrigued about this issue : all the canon material specify that elves reach adulthood around 100. The first manual who disagrees is Races of the Wild, and this one is quite recent, when it appeared the idea that "elves reach physycal maturity at the same rate, but they are allowed to be children much longer blah, blah" was already circulating. So, in fact, I would like to ask : what is the original source of this theory ?
2 Prime Examples of Elves "Adventuring" at a young age are Drizzt and Liriel.
If we dig around I imagine we can find some surface elves too.
Elizabeth Moon in her Deeds of Paksenarrion trilogy, touches on elven lifespan. In her world, elves are basically immortal.
Half-elves can reproduce at the same time as human (call it 18) but not safely, especially for a female. They don't truly come to their prime til about 50 years of age or so, but live to be roughly 200-300 some years just like D&D elves.
Yes, this isn't a D&D Novel, but does show that Elves and Half-Elves can be "adult" enough to go out into the world at a young age that is close to a human's. |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 07:40:14
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Well, Drizzt and Liriel are both DROW. And Drizzt is around 30 when he starts adventuring, which is the end of drow childhood. Liriel is somewhere between 30 and 40 as I recall.
The other one, well, is not a FR novel. This way, Tolkien's elves are also immortal and they mature as fast as humans.
As I suspected, all this stuff about "elves allowed to be children much longer" seems to be simple hearsay, amplified 100 times and turned into fact by the human discomfort to imagine a race with a childhood that long. Go figure. Bah ! |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 12:59:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
As I suspected, all this stuff about "elves allowed to be children much longer" seems to be simple hearsay, amplified 100 times and turned into fact by the human discomfort to imagine a race with a childhood that long. Go figure. Bah !
This is almost exactly how I run it. It’s mostly legend and rumor, and people think that, since elves live for so long, then they must have a really long childhood.
To answer Feanor, you are right; the elves I was thinking of were drow, so my #2 idea kinda falls apart.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 16:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
This is almost exactly how I run it. It’s mostly legend and rumor, and people think that, since elves live for so long, then they must have a really long childhood.
You missed my point. I was not refering to the characters from AD&D, but to the players themselves. To be more specific : I was very intrigued why so many players say that elves mature as fast as humans, yet it is their mentality which keeps them away from adventuring until they are around 100, that despite the fact there was absolutely no canon material which even hints towards such an idea until races of the wild. I tried to find out how did this theory start, from what WotC source, who set the wood for this fire to say so, and I failed. It seems there is no official source which states this explicitly and that is why I labeled this theory as simple rumor carried from player to player. |
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 16:41:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
As I suspected, all this stuff about "elves allowed to be children much longer" seems to be simple hearsay, amplified 100 times and turned into fact by the human discomfort to imagine a race with a childhood that long. Go figure. Bah !
This is almost exactly how I run it. It’s mostly legend and rumor, and people think that, since elves live for so long, then they must have a really long childhood.
To answer Feanor, you are right; the elves I was thinking of were drow, so my #2 idea kinda falls apart.
*Shakes head* So confoundedly young... and yet, they were still just as knowledgable and skilled in drow culture as an adult. That kind of goes against the whole "age of adventuring being mature in knowledge and abilities of your culture", eh? It's been said that drow reach maturity much faster than other elves, and their lifespan is shorter (though that's more due to hazard, I still haven't heard of a long-lived drow other than Gromph) as well. Why not just retcon the drow's aging chart? |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 16:47:09
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| True, drow don't live as much as the surface elves without magical help. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 02:18:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Aquanova
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
As I suspected, all this stuff about "elves allowed to be children much longer" seems to be simple hearsay, amplified 100 times and turned into fact by the human discomfort to imagine a race with a childhood that long. Go figure. Bah !
This is almost exactly how I run it. It’s mostly legend and rumor, and people think that, since elves live for so long, then they must have a really long childhood.
To answer Feanor, you are right; the elves I was thinking of were drow, so my #2 idea kinda falls apart.
*Shakes head* So confoundedly young... and yet, they were still just as knowledgable and skilled in drow culture as an adult. That kind of goes against the whole "age of adventuring being mature in knowledge and abilities of your culture", eh? It's been said that drow reach maturity much faster than other elves, and their lifespan is shorter (though that's more due to hazard, I still haven't heard of a long-lived drow other than Gromph) as well. Why not just retcon the drow's aging chart?
Matron Baenre was about 1,000 years old or so before she was killed. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 02:54:39
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| Drow culture is based on learn quick or die. Physical size growth might be a little faster then surface elves it might not be. The bigist difference between the two cultures is that a Drow learns the dagger and many die or have to kill by age 10 just to live. The fair elves even if embattled do not teach their children to kill just to stay alive. At age 10 they might be given a toy dagger if it interests them. They are allowed to explore many posibilities as they grow toward maturity. They are not expected to fight and kill until at least age 50 (and that would be extreme case of community in danger of being wiped out). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2006 : 13:17:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
This is almost exactly how I run it. It’s mostly legend and rumor, and people think that, since elves live for so long, then they must have a really long childhood.
You missed my point. I was not refering to the characters from AD&D, but to the players themselves. To be more specific : I was very intrigued why so many players say that elves mature as fast as humans, yet it is their mentality which keeps them away from adventuring until they are around 100, that despite the fact there was absolutely no canon material which even hints towards such an idea until races of the wild. I tried to find out how did this theory start, from what WotC source, who set the wood for this fire to say so, and I failed. It seems there is no official source which states this explicitly and that is why I labeled this theory as simple rumor carried from player to player.
Yup. I missed your point. Sorry about that; the dangers of posting at work, before coffee has kicked in.
As far as I know, having tried to read everything to do with Elves in both core D&D and FR (as far as is relevant to this conversation) there is no precedence before RotW for elves being physically mature at a young age, aside from the previously mentioned drow examples.
But I really prefer it over the core rules. It just makes more sense to me. I think that the 100+ years thing is just inflation so that people can see that elves live a long time.
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 04:52:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Jindael
This is almost exactly how I run it. It’s mostly legend and rumor, and people think that, since elves live for so long, then they must have a really long childhood.
You missed my point. I was not refering to the characters from AD&D, but to the players themselves. To be more specific : I was very intrigued why so many players say that elves mature as fast as humans, yet it is their mentality which keeps them away from adventuring until they are around 100, that despite the fact there was absolutely no canon material which even hints towards such an idea until races of the wild. I tried to find out how did this theory start, from what WotC source, who set the wood for this fire to say so, and I failed. It seems there is no official source which states this explicitly and that is why I labeled this theory as simple rumor carried from player to player.
Yup. I missed your point. Sorry about that; the dangers of posting at work, before coffee has kicked in.
As far as I know, having tried to read everything to do with Elves in both core D&D and FR (as far as is relevant to this conversation) there is no precedence before RotW for elves being physically mature at a young age, aside from the previously mentioned drow examples.
But I really prefer it over the core rules. It just makes more sense to me. I think that the 100+ years thing is just inflation so that people can see that elves live a long time.
of course they would, because they do. it is a fantasy setting and they are elves. No use in growing up at age 18( or at least considered an adult) and then having 800 + years of adulthood to go off of. |
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Aquanova
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2006 : 21:00:42
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Matron Baenre was about 1,000 years old or so before she was killed.
Ah, but was that because she traversed the normal drow lifespan, or was it because she had divine/eldritch intervention that increased her mortality? Much as Gromph, no?
Anyway, I think that (barring a large fallacy in my argument) the duergar/dwarf lifespan is more on-par with the novels' depiction of the drow.
The drow's age chart needs to changed in the age of adulthood in any way, seeing the novels have incontrovertibly shown that drow reach maturity as early as fourty years old-- mature in both mind and body. This directly contridicts the rules' text, which states they reach adulthood (in the rules, bearing the definition of the age one would more than likely begin adventuring) in a hundred years.
So perhaps use the duergar/dwarf age chart for drow, or, use the duergar/dwarf's AoA and retain the rest of the centuries-long lifespan (if drow can even live to such ages without magic).
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 12:41:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Aquanova
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Matron Baenre was about 1,000 years old or so before she was killed.
Ah, but was that because she traversed the normal drow lifespan, or was it because she had divine/eldritch intervention that increased her mortality? Much as Gromph, no?
Anyway, I think that (barring a large fallacy in my argument) the duergar/dwarf lifespan is more on-par with the novels' depiction of the drow.
The drow's age chart needs to changed in the age of adulthood in any way, seeing the novels have incontrovertibly shown that drow reach maturity as early as fourty years old-- mature in both mind and body. This directly contridicts the rules' text, which states they reach adulthood (in the rules, bearing the definition of the age one would more than likely begin adventuring) in a hundred years.
So perhaps use the duergar/dwarf age chart for drow, or, use the duergar/dwarf's AoA and retain the rest of the centuries-long lifespan (if drow can even live to such ages without magic).
I'm a little bit confused. Why are you saying that drow reach adulthood in 100 years, when the manuals they reach it around 50-60 ?  |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 20:51:17
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Feanor it depends on what manual you read. Some scribes are operating under 2ed rules, others are operating under 3ed, or the novels and everyone is using different sources. According to the Player's Guide to Faerun pg 31,In 3.5 all elves(in Forgotten Realms) reach adulthood at 110. In 2ed edition drow had a shorter life spanned, I do not have the Drow of the Underdark with me at the moment to give an exact page number but 50 or 60 being adulthood sounds correct.
For instance, RotW is not necessarily the best source to look for information about the lives of elves in Faerun since the Greyhawk/Eberron elves are very different than the Elves in Realms. And Realms has several sources that are specific made for Realms that cover and contradict some information presented in RotW. It is entirely up to your group to decide which set of rules works best for your game.
When elves reach maturity in your game is really dependant on what source you choose to use novels, old realms products, new realms products, or DnD core books.
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too young for an elf?
