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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
137 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 11:09:03
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Firstly, just to make sure I've got this straight:
> Sy'Tel'Quessir (AKA Copper Elves or Wood Elves) are the ones who live in the deep, deep forest in Cormanthor and elsewhere in the noerthern Realms, practicing a near-pure lifestyle of partnership with nature, trying to cause as little disturbance as possible while still maintaining their civilisation and living standards. They are extremely reclusive, but not especially hostile; they tend to be concerned more with day-to-day mundanities than spiritual or mystical pursuits.
> Wild Elves (AKA green elves) are the brown-skinned grouping in the south of the Realms. A product of living in less forgiving environments than their northern cousins after the destruction of their 'civilised' settlements, an enforced greater focus on mere survival pursuits (even greater than the copper elves') has seen more intellectual pursuits left by the wayside, as well as lending their racial temperament a slightly feral and extremely xenophobic colouring.
Now, for the real question: green elves don't seem to be the types to have developed or retained High Magic of the degree necessary to erect or maintain mythals... at least, not since the 'de-evolution' they've undergone since arriving in on Abeir-Toril and watching their civilisation and its 'higher works' shattered in the fall of Miyeritar. Does anyone have any information/theories/speculation about whether their greatest minds might have been capable of developing/performing High Magic like mythal-raising before they emigrated to Toril?
What about the copper elves? The references I can find suggest that they eschew such lofty mystical pursuits in favour of more pragmatic concerns (though not to the degree of the wild elves)... though some references do suggest Sy'Tel'Quessir have raised mythals. Would this have been a joint effort with more 'sophisticated' elven groups, or would they have merely needed to know how it was done to pull it off on their own?
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D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.
FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.
I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough.  |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 15:06:22
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quote:
> Sy'Tel'Quessir (AKA Copper Elves or Wood Elves) are the ones who live in the deep, deep forest in Cormanthor and elsewhere in the noerthern Realms, practicing a near-pure lifestyle of partnership with nature, trying to cause as little disturbance as possible while still maintaining their civilisation and living standards. They are extremely reclusive, but not especially hostile; they tend to be concerned more with day-to-day mundanities than spiritual or mystical pursuits.
> Wild Elves (AKA green elves) are the brown-skinned grouping in the south of the Realms. A product of living in less forgiving environments than their northern cousins after the destruction of their 'civilised' settlements, an enforced greater focus on mere survival pursuits (even greater than the copper elves') has seen more intellectual pursuits left by the wayside, as well as lending their racial temperament a slightly feral and extremely xenophobic colouring.
That's the way I understand it, with the addition that green elves, like their gold, silver and dark cousins, are immigrants to Faerun while copper/wood elves are a "blend" of the other races that has arisen on Faerun.
quote:
Now, for the real question: green elves don't seem to be the
types to have developed or retained High Magic of the degree necessary to erect or maintain mythals... at least, not since the 'de-evolution' they've undergone since arriving in on Abeir-Toril and watching their civilisation and its 'higher works' shattered in the fall of Miyeritar. Does anyone have any information/theories/speculation about whether their greatest minds might have been capable of developing/performing High Magic like mythal-raising before they emigrated to Toril?
I think Miyeritar was a dark/moon elf state? The green elf realms were further south. I'd certainly expect that Green elves are/were capable of performing high magic, and there's a Green Elf sorceress in Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet novel who teaches at the Tower of High Sorcery. It's more likely to be philosophy - arcane magic is dangerous - or lack of opportunity - how to learn it - that prevents Green Elves using High Magic in the current Realms, and those things don't apply so much in the past.
quote:
What about the copper elves? The references I can find suggest that they eschew such lofty mystical pursuits in favour of more pragmatic concerns (though not to the degree of the wild elves)... though some references do suggest Sy'Tel'Quessir have raised mythals. Would this have been a joint effort with more 'sophisticated' elven groups, or would they have merely needed to know how it was done to pull it off on their own?
I think they mostly live/lived in areas like Cormanthor and the High Forest. We know that Cormanthor had a mix of elven subraces, so the Mythal there would be a mixed effort.
The three main kingdoms of the High Forest were Earlann, Sharrven, and Siluvanede. Earlann was founded by Moon Elves and the others by Sun Elves, and while Eaerlann seems to have been fairly inclusive the others weren't. While wood elves might have been involved in raising any Mythals, again I suspect it was a co-operative effort with other groups. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6646 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2006 : 23:06:40
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This is a topic I've wrestled with also, as the sources are somewhat contradictory. The 3E sources seem to exclude green elves from being able to access the High Mage PrC and green elves turn into different sorts of baelnorn than your 'standard' gold and moon elves as per "Cormanthyr". I'd say that even in their 'golden years' green elf High Mages were a very, very rare breed. As to what kind of mythals they would have cast, this is so much in the realms of speculation that I think you can't go wrong no matter what you decide. The Realms (and 3E for that matter) seem to preach a mantra of 'anything is possible': I'd say go with that.
Similarly, wood elves are seen to have a slightly non-magical bent since the end of the Crown Wars according to "Races of Faerūn" and other sources. That said, Eaerlann was a wood elf realm and it left behind several mythals (Ascalhorn, Myth Glaurach and likely a few more). Again, I'd probably go with the attitude that High Magic is rarer in wood elves than moon and gold but certainly not non-existent.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
Edited by - George Krashos on 01 Mar 2006 23:07:00 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4685 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 03:29:23
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"I think Miyeritar was a dark/moon elf state?"
Err, last I knew it was a dark/green elf realm, not dark/silver elf realm.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
137 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 03:53:48
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
Firstly, just to make sure I've got this straight:
> Sy'Tel'Quessir (AKA Copper Elves or Wood Elves)
Sy-tel-quessir are Green Elves (Wild Elves) not Copper Elves (Wood Elves).
Copper/Wood Elves have not been given an Elven Name in Realmslore yet.
 Sure about that? I took the above names directly from your own site - http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/races-Toril.htm - and it would seem to support my version, rather than yours.  |
D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.
FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.
I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 03:58:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
Firstly, just to make sure I've got this straight:
> Sy'Tel'Quessir (AKA Copper Elves or Wood Elves)
Sy-tel-quessir are Green Elves (Wild Elves) not Copper Elves (Wood Elves).
Copper/Wood Elves have not been given an Elven Name in Realmslore yet.
Sure about that? I took the above names directly from your own site - http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/races-Toril.htm - and it would seem to support my version, rather than yours.
Warlockco is in fact correct. Races of Faerūn makes this apparent -- Sy-tel-quessir = Green Elves. The Copper Elves/Wood Elves are the only elves for which we do not yet have a racial name.
Races of Faerūn also tells us that in the aftermath of the savage Crown Wars, it was then that the green elves went in one of two racial directions -- leading to the split in 1e/2e Green/Wood/Wild Elves in 3e. As Krash said -
"...they stayed kind of wild and remained greens, or civilised a touch and became wood (copper) elves. So we do have a 3E explanation after all.
-- George Krashos"
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Edited by - The Sage on 02 Mar 2006 04:03:43 |
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
137 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 05:23:35
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Trace_Coburn
Sure about that? I took the above names directly from your own site - http://myth-drannor.net/DlabraddathNet/z-Cormanthyr/races-Toril.htm - and it would seem to support my version, rather than yours.
Warlockco is in fact correct. Races of Faerūn makes this apparent -- Sy-tel-quessir = Green Elves. The Copper Elves/Wood Elves are the only elves for which we do not yet have a racial name.
Races of Faerūn also tells us that in the aftermath of the savage Crown Wars, it was then that the green elves went in one of two racial directions -- leading to the split in 1e/2e Green/Wood/Wild Elves in 3e. As Krash said -
"...they stayed kind of wild and remained greens, or civilised a touch and became wood (copper) elves. So we do have a 3E explanation after all.
-- George Krashos"
Oh. I sit corrected, then.   |
D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.
FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.
I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Trace_Coburn
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
137 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2006 : 10:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's a nice website, but I tend to not take anything online as canon unless it comes directly from an official source.
True enough... but from the way most of it seemed to track so well with what I knew of canon, I half-assumed that the operators were working from the canon materials themselves.
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Haven't dived deeply into the site either, but it came highly recommended by someone, and from what I saw looks good, so that is mainly why I have it in my sig.
Oh. Man, I'm really on a roll of wrong here, aren't I? |
D&D collection: Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, Monster Manual I, Complete Arcane, Arms & Equipment Guide.
FR sourcebook collection: Dragons of Faerūn, Faiths & Pantheons, FRCS, Lords of Darkness, Monsters of Faerūn, Player's Guide to Faerūn, Power of Faerūn, Races of Faerūn, Silver Marches.
I just got back into this, okay? Give me time (or better yet money) - I'll catch up soon enough. |
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Green elves, copper elves - High Magic?
