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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  12:21:44  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After a rather superficial reading, I only bring two considerations:

1) for Red Knight, you must only check how old she is. As far as I remember, she ascended to godhood quite recently; and

2) as for a giant deity, minor or not, you can reconsider the idea of minotaurs being a cursed or altered race. Not of humans, but maybe of giant-kin. Or of humans which were tied to giants (slaves?).

EDIT: typo

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)

Edited by - Barastir on 23 Feb 2018 12:26:22
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7053 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  14:01:26  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You could also bring in the Norse cow Audumbla, whom I've associated to the Rashemi goddess Bhalla (which all Faerunians think of as Chauntea, goddess of agriculture and animal husbandry). In fact, while I do love the story of Haagenti above... I truly like the idea of MULTIPLE gods producing many of the "standard" races. In other words, there's no ONE god that brought in all minotaurs... just like I don't believe that Gruumsh is truly responsible for ALL orcs. Anyway, just for grins, I'm going to share what I had written up in my red book of spell strategy about the Rashemi Pantheon.

Also, one of the things that I do tie there is the idea that Hathor of the Mulhorandi Pantheon is in fact Audumbla/"'Bhalla". Hathor is looked down upon by all the other Mulhorandi gods, and in fact she is one of the ones that is specifically NOT given information for a manifestation, etc.... My take on that is that during the fight with the Imaskari... the manifestation of Hathor died. When those gods died, they could pass on their power to the other gods, and she chose to instead pass her power onto Audumbla/Bhalla. The average Mulan has no idea of all this, and it pissed off Ra and the other Mulhorandi gods. For that matter, Geb may have died to and instead passed on his power to Grumbar, as his manifestation as well was never stat'd. The Mulhorandi gods at the time were already in a very precarious situation, so rather than cast out these new aspects, they accepted the "interlopers", but instead tried to consolidate their power to the "core Mulhorandi gods". In doing this, this opens up the idea for me of having Hathor expand via some beast cults tied through Audumbla/Bhalla in other parts of the world that are undocumented, and even have Audumbla/Bhalla open up other representations of Hathor to other "non-bovine" races... such as Nekhebet and Heqet

HOMEBREW from the Complete Red Book of Spell Strategy
The Witches and people of Rashemen do not worship the standard Faerunian Pantheon. The people of Rashemen mainly worship a collective of three main female goddesses, though they also give reverence to special spirit beings local only to Rashemen. These spirits (known locally as Telthors, see new monster template in the new monster section) are ghostlike beings, being either beasts which seem to spontaneously appear or humanoids who died in service to the land of Rashemen. The people of Rashemen also hold the members of the various Fey Courts in high reverence as well (such as the Courts of Spring, Summer, Autumn, and Winter, the Unseelie Court, the Court of Green Fey, the court of Gloaming Fey <sometimes referred to as the Court of the Moon>). Of these courts, both the Prince of Frost and the Queen of Air & Darkness (whom some say is Auril) have become popular amongst the Bheur hags and certain rogue Wychlaran factions. The elemental lords, Kossuth, Akadi, Grumbar, and Istishia have also always enjoyed some reverence in the region, mostly due to their influence on the former empire of Raumathar. In addition, certain Faerunian gods have begun to make significan inroads, including Lurue and Nobanion, as well as the goddess Leira (whom some say is a daughter of “The Hidden One” though who can tell the truth of such matters). Other deities have minor followings, for instance amongst the males, Gond, Helm, Hoar “the Doombringer”, and Tempus all have limited followers. Amongst the hags of the region, deities such as Beshaba, Cegilune, Kiaransalee, Shar, and Talona all have followers, as well as those who follow the Queen of Air and Darkness.

The true nature of “the Three”, Bhalla, Khelliara, and “The Hidden One”, is a mystery. Westerners believe them simply to be aspects of Chauntea, Mielikki, and Mystra. Some others have posited that they are remnants of the ancient Yuir deities once worshipped by humans in the region. Others believe they are some form of Archfey, Primordial, or simply powerful Spirit being leftover from the early days of Toril. Still others claim that Bhalla, with her cow representation, is related to the being that giant mythology claims nursed the original giant deities, and that Khelliara, with her deer representation, is related to an ancient being of Shaundalar mythology known as Flidais. Some say that the earthmother of the Moonshaes and Bhalla are one and the same, and that Chauntea is attempting to usurp them both. Still others believe that Bhalla and Khelliara were racial deities of the Hybsil and Minotaurs who were adopted by the humans of the region, much as Felidae, the cat goddess, had been before being subsumed by Bast.

Rashemi doctrine says that Bhalla is a mother goddess who it is said was around at the founding of the world as a great cow amidst a sea of icy rime. From the elemental chaos, heat slowly came to the darkness, causing the salty rime in which she found herself to begin to melt. It is said that this icy salt did melt enough at one point that it became a sea around her, and in the process somehow the salty sea did make her become pregnant. Bhalla then gave birth to a set of twins, Khelliarr and Khelliara. Khelliarr was a power of great light and love, but he did not survive these early times. Khelliara would go on to become a wild power of nature and hunting, with a particular affinity for snow and skiing. Bhalla has given birth to other children by other powerful beings (such as Magnar the Bear, Relkath of the Infinite Branches, Skerrit the Forester, Talisid the Celestial Lion) but the names of most of these children have been lost to history for the most part, though some are still called upon as powerful spirits within Rashemen. She has even given birth to some unusual races, such as the small, singing mushrooms known as Campestri, said to have been birthed upon her by the Carrion King of the Feywild in return for a favor. The Rashemi truly believe that the Mulhorandi goddess Hathor is simply an aspect of Bhalla, and that this is why the other Mulhorandi gods look down upon her. The Mulhorandi of course consider this sacrilege. The original Rus who arrived in Rashemen referred to Bhalla by the name Audumbla and were surprised by the reverence given her by the local populace, but as they bred with the Raumviran population and learned their ways, proper reverence for Bhalla was soon as natural to them as breathing.

Khelliara is seen as a similar goddess, though she is seen more often as a huntress and master of Forests. She is known to take the shape of a red deer, and some suspect that PindalPau-Pau, the Reindeer Mother of the people of the Great Glacier is actually an aspect of Khelliara. However, she is also known to take on the shape of wild red mares, red falcons, red foxes, and wily reddish-brown rabbits. Many believe that Mielikki and Khelliara are one and the same, and perhaps over time this exchange has occurred, but the Rashemi steadfastly refuse to believe such. It is said that Khelliara is served by “the Hart Maidens” or women spirit warriors who can and do take on the forms of female deer to provide spiritual guidance to the people of Rashemen. Some believe these Hart Maidens also choose which heroes of Rashemen will become the spirit beings known as telthors. The original Rus who arrived in Rashemen referred to Khelliara by the name Freyja and named her Hart Maidens to be Disir (of course, they also referred to the outlander deity Lathander by the name Freyj).

It is also whispered that Bhalla nursed Annam, All-Father of the giant pantheon, at her teats when he was young and weak, and she was rewarded for her kindness later when he was stronger by being raped by him. Annam did announce that he would return to collect his child upon its birth. It is said that Bhalla did curse Annam for this, calling upon great powers of the fey for their protection. When the child was born, it was a misshapen and ugly female child, and Annam did appear, and in his fury he threatened to throw the child into the Pit at the bottom of the Elemental Chaos. Bhalla did call upon the Queen of Summer, Khelliara did beseech the Queen of Winter, and the child did innately call upon the Queen of the Hags. These three beings appeared to provide their blessings and protections upon the child, and they did tie the child's spirit to all the lands of Northeastern Faerun, the land of Arvandor, and the Feywild and did tie all this magic to the movement of the moon such that it is constantly changing. This prevented Annam from hurling the child into the yawning Abyss emerging from the Elemental Chaos. The frustrated Annam left, cursing all women as meddlers, but the child was kept safe. This child, it is said, is “The Hidden One”. Her true name is unknown to mortal men.

What is known of “The Hidden One” is that she appears to be a great Telthor Spirit able to draw upon the many ley lines that cross through the land of Rashemen, as well as the magic of the moon as its movement causes these magical lines to ebb and flow. She has substantial power over Glamour Magic (illusions), elemental based magics and what is known as coven magic, or cooperative spellcasting. It is whispered that she taught the Raumvirans some of their original magic, though it is known that they also sought out other great elemental powers such as Grumbar, Kossuth, and other local spirits. It is also whispered that she once fell in love with the terrestrial bound Nanna-Sin of the Untheric Pantheon just a short time before Nanna-Sin's death in the Orcgate wars, and that she became pregnant by him, but she never revealed this to the Untheric Pantheon for fear that they would mount an invasion to take the child. It is said that this child is protected as a ward of one of the Faerie Courts, and that the Vremyonni protect a gateway to this realm.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  14:01:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tigon

sorry for my recent absence, that thing mighty demon called 'real life' had its nasty claws dug into me.

let me add a few thoughts here.

I read over what everyone has posted and reviewed my notes and noted that the deity I felt was the most natural fit hasnt been mentioned in here (or i missed it), but why has Tempus (Neutral, Domain: War; Portfolio: War) not been considered? God of War and Soldiers seems a natural fit to me. Though perhaps honor in combat would be more fitting for the Minotaur way, the Minotaur way DOES highly center around war/combat. Taking a step down from the higher powers we could also look at The Red Night [i](Lawful Neutral, Domain War; Portfolio: strategy, planning). While Ketor could have taken to the Lady of Strategy, or could have arisen to being somewhat on par with her as she is listed as an Exarch (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Exarch)


Likewise, has anyone considered The Battle Father; Uthgar? Would seem easy enough to make the Totem of the Bull - Lawful Neutral fit into his Portfolio. And, post spellplague he became an exarch of Tempus. Would be fairly easy here too to say that Ketor ascended to serving Uthgar and then when Uthgar became an excarch to Tempus, Tempus saw Ketor and gave him his own portfolio directly under him (Tempus, rather than Uthgar) granting him the Portfolio of Honorable Combat.


On ANOTHER note, has anyone considered that the Minotaurs actually were more of a Primordial creation? If they were, this indeed could be one reason they were absent/hidden for so long... perhaps they were sundered to Abeir way back at the first sundering and, like the Dragonborn only arrived on Toril during the Spellplauge. That might make a lot of this discussion moot(ish) since any history we build here prior to the spell plague would actually have happened on Abeir.

Thoughts?



The Red Knight is too young. She just arose during the ToT.

I'm not sure if Tempus or Uthgar are old enough, but both ideas have merit.

And minotaurs were in the Realms long before anyone at WotC thought of the Sundering. We've got at least one named minotaur NPC in a 2E product. And it's later lore, but we also have that minotaur kingdom that was on Toril.

I'm going to look into Uthgar... I like that idea. And if he doesn't work, maybe a knock-off of him would work.

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 23 Feb 2018 :  14:07:17  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

After a rather superficial reading, I only bring two considerations:

1) for Red Knight, you must only check how old she is. As far as I remember, she ascended to godhood quite recently; and

2) as for a giant deity, minor or not, you can reconsider the idea of minotaurs being a cursed or altered race. Not of humans, but maybe of giant-kin. Or of humans which were tied to giants (slaves?).

EDIT: typo



I like the idea of minotaurs being an altered race, but not a cursed one. My thinking is that they were once regular humans who worshipped a literally bull-headed deity; for some reason, he reshaped his (or her) followers, and they bred true.

The most likely cause I can think of for the reshaping would be that a group of them faced some dire physical threat, so their deity made them into minotaurs, and being larger and stronger helped turn the tide in their favor.

Of course, it could have also been some mortal experimentation; perhaps giant spellcasters transformed some unwilling humans, intending to create servants that were larger and stronger than humans, but still a lesser race compared to giants. This may be the most workable origin, and give us a reason to still associate human deities with minotaurs.

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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

704 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  06:19:51  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Once, a long, long time ago, a wizard bred an owl and a bear together, and that's how we got owlbears. Now, apply that same logic to a wizard who had an excess of cows in his backyard and a bunch of slaves he wasn't really using...

This is why you should never let wizards get bored. Elminster probably has a coop of chickens that explode when startled, all because one day he was feeling hungry and couldn't be arsed to get a cookbook out and the stove ready. That's not even getting into things like Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.

Edited by - LordofBones on 24 Feb 2018 06:23:49
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
31142 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  13:45:28  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just had a thought... I was thinking on my idea that some giant spellcasters transformed a bunch of humans into minotaurs.

This would not be something that that first generation would forget. Once they looked normal, and now they look monstrous... This could explain, in part, the appeal of Baphomet. Some of these first-gen minotaurs could have felt if they looked like and were condemned to live as monsters, might as well embrace it and go all the way monster.

The humans transformed by mortal magic angle gives another option, too: the feet. Minotaurs are often depicted as having the reverse legs and cloven feet of a cow, and sometimes they're depicted as having regular human legs and feet. Personally, I favor the regular human legs and feet, for the simple fact that that is the default design for a humanoid -- that foot is designed to keep a humanoid upright. The reverse legs and feet are designed to operate as part of a set of four, so logically, it would be more difficult for a humanoid to retain their balance on that kind of foot (imagine walking on your tiptoes, all day, everyday, in everything that you do, including going down inclines or up stairs or ladders).

If we have different groups of giant mages doing this transformation, then some of them could have left the feet alone, while others could have made the point of going all the way -- so you'd have both types of feet.

Of course, this might be of importance only to myself.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Feb 2018 13:46:22
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7053 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  14:01:55  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Once, a long, long time ago, a wizard bred an owl and a bear together, and that's how we got owlbears. Now, apply that same logic to a wizard who had an excess of cows in his backyard and a bunch of slaves he wasn't really using...

This is why you should never let wizards get bored. Elminster probably has a coop of chickens that explode when startled, all because one day he was feeling hungry and couldn't be arsed to get a cookbook out and the stove ready. That's not even getting into things like Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.



That poor owl....

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7053 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  14:07:27  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Tigon

sorry for my recent absence, that thing mighty demon called 'real life' had its nasty claws dug into me.

let me add a few thoughts here.

I read over what everyone has posted and reviewed my notes and noted that the deity I felt was the most natural fit hasnt been mentioned in here (or i missed it), but why has Tempus (Neutral, Domain: War; Portfolio: War) not been considered? God of War and Soldiers seems a natural fit to me. Though perhaps honor in combat would be more fitting for the Minotaur way, the Minotaur way DOES highly center around war/combat. Taking a step down from the higher powers we could also look at The Red Night [i](Lawful Neutral, Domain War; Portfolio: strategy, planning). While Ketor could have taken to the Lady of Strategy, or could have arisen to being somewhat on par with her as she is listed as an Exarch (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Exarch)


Likewise, has anyone considered The Battle Father; Uthgar? Would seem easy enough to make the Totem of the Bull - Lawful Neutral fit into his Portfolio. And, post spellplague he became an exarch of Tempus. Would be fairly easy here too to say that Ketor ascended to serving Uthgar and then when Uthgar became an excarch to Tempus, Tempus saw Ketor and gave him his own portfolio directly under him (Tempus, rather than Uthgar) granting him the Portfolio of Honorable Combat.


On ANOTHER note, has anyone considered that the Minotaurs actually were more of a Primordial creation? If they were, this indeed could be one reason they were absent/hidden for so long... perhaps they were sundered to Abeir way back at the first sundering and, like the Dragonborn only arrived on Toril during the Spellplauge. That might make a lot of this discussion moot(ish) since any history we build here prior to the spell plague would actually have happened on Abeir.

Thoughts?



The Red Knight is too young. She just arose during the ToT.

I'm not sure if Tempus or Uthgar are old enough, but both ideas have merit.

And minotaurs were in the Realms long before anyone at WotC thought of the Sundering. We've got at least one named minotaur NPC in a 2E product. And it's later lore, but we also have that minotaur kingdom that was on Toril.

I'm going to look into Uthgar... I like that idea. And if he doesn't work, maybe a knock-off of him would work.



Throw in Garagos as well into this mix. He actually fits well with most minotaur cultures that you don't want to have worshipping demons (who will likely require things such as ritual sacrifice). He's still bloodthirsty enough of a warrior, but he's not evil (he is CN though so he's not good either).

I think I like the idea of Bhalla creating the minotaurs that end up in the Unapproachable east & Cold Lands region. Many of these minotaurs though get corrupted by demons (specifically Baphomet). Some that live on the icy lands further north may turn to Ulutiu. There's also another race of horned humanoid in the region (elk-headed) called the Shatjan and Rashemen has a smaller stag headed race. Personally, I've also placed Hybsil in this area too, but usually deep in the forests. These other races which are more deer like I leave to Khelliara and the Stag King.

Go a bit further south, into the areas of the Shaar and Veldorn.... and while it would be easier to just have migrations of minotaurs (a lot easier)... I think I'd prefer these particular minotaurs to have a different origin. Here is where I'd have the cursed minotaurs... the ones from Thrym and Haagenti and involving giantkind. These would be born from the sons of Haagenti upon regular humans, in return for power. I'd probably still go with Baphomet as a son of Haagenti in this instance and thus have had at one point long ago a cult of Baphomet in the Shaar. In fact, who knows, maybe the origins of many of these minotaurs aren't even humans. Maybe it was Ilythiiri mating with Baphomet... or maybe the Ilythiiri were capturing humans for Baphomet to have his way with.

In this way the Baphitaurs that we have in Driz'zt's guide to the underdark can also be explained away as something similar. Essentially Baphitaurs are just the children of Baphomet, which are just the "cursed" version of minotaur. Thus they have a demonic taint to them (similar to the drow). The portal in the Council Hills area which connects to the north could explain minotaur migration into northeastern faerun. When the Ilythiiri make their way to Narathmault, they would bring their minotaur servants with them, and thus the "children of Bhalla" find themselves meeting "the children of Baphomet" and the mixing of their blood and spread of Baphomet as a god begins to the children of Bhalla.

Along these lines Wooly, your idea of different minotaur legs could apply. The cursed ones possibly have the legs that are cow like, and suffer as a result of the curse. The "children of Bhalla" however are modified humans, blessed by Bhalla, and as a result these still have their human legs.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas

Edited by - sleyvas on 24 Feb 2018 14:58:36
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 24 Feb 2018 :  21:06:02  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Barastir

After a rather superficial reading, I only bring two considerations:

1) for Red Knight, you must only check how old she is. As far as I remember, she ascended to godhood quite recently; and

2) as for a giant deity, minor or not, you can reconsider the idea of minotaurs being a cursed or altered race. Not of humans, but maybe of giant-kin. Or of humans which were tied to giants (slaves?).
Well, if we go with ogres, then it ties into Krynn (Dragonlance) lore. I've tried connecting Krynn lore to the greater body of D&D lore before, but it seems both sides - DL lover and haters - are both against such a thing. I'm certainly no fan of DL, but I am a fan of D&D, so I feel its necessary to at least hint at connections here and there (other than the obvious umbrella-settings of RL, PS, & SJ).

I have no qualms against saying the minotaurs are a mutated group of something else, and the Ogres are the best fit, IMO.

quote:
Originally posted by LordofBones

Once, a long, long time ago, a wizard bred an owl and a bear together, and that's how we got owlbears. Now, apply that same logic to a wizard who had an excess of cows in his backyard and a bunch of slaves he wasn't really using...

This is why you should never let wizards get bored. Elminster probably has a coop of chickens that explode when startled, all because one day he was feeling hungry and couldn't be arsed to get a cookbook out and the stove ready. That's not even getting into things like Evan's Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion.

I'm glad you brought this up, because it is just as relevant. In D&D we have a lot of critters that are of a 'lesser' (terrestrial) and 'greater' (planer) variety, and we have something like that going on with minotaurs, but with them, it isn't at all related to the Shattering of the First World (Lattice of Heaven/Dawn War stuff).

We have the very large (ogre-sized) brutish kind with more bestial features and hooves, and then we have a very human-like, smaller group (with normal-seeming legs). The brutish kind perhaps should be the more 'natural' group (in D&D), which came about because they were blessed/cursed by something. These would be the standard 'monstrous' variety.

But then humans (and others) have experimented with making their own creatures over the years, sometimes based upon already-existing creatures. I like your example for the owl bear, because over a thousand years ago there were Dire owlbears - must larger and more ferocious than the modern variety (see the Cormyr novel). This could have just been natural evolution going on - with the largest ones constantly being killed-off, because they were the easiest to find (thus, breeding for 'smallness'). But what if someone was breading them for that on-purpose? Trying to creating fighters, but no matter what couldn't quite get them to act like more than beasts? This may have been done magically, or just using normal breeding practices (and if you think early cultures couldn't do that, I give you the Ancient Chinese, who had an amazing understanding of genetics and breeding).

So we may have a group of ogres/Orcs (Ogrillons?) who were 'blessed' by some god and became the minotaurs we know in D&D/FR, and then we can have the specifically created ones that are more civilized. And it could be that those are actually True Minotaur/human hybrids.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Feb 2018 21:08:14
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Barastir
Master of Realmslore

Brazil
1453 Posts

Posted - 28 Feb 2018 :  18:49:23  Show Profile  Click to see Barastir's MSN Messenger address Send Barastir a Private Message  Reply with Quote
wooly's idea of them having been humans being a reason for them worshipping human deities is nice. Another explanation would be the concept of deities not belonging necessarily to one race or another... But this is another discussion.

Not sure if Uthgar would be a good option because he is a bit new, although not as much as the Red Knight (he is from 123 DR or later, since this is the date of the death of the mortal Uthgar).

As far as I understand, Tempus would be a god of the Talfir, maybe from the beginning of times. But then again, we have Garagos (as sleyvas suggested), known as Targus and worshipped since Netheril (and "Targus" somehow sounds like "taurus").

As for the cloven or human feet...

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Of course, this might be of importance only to myself.



Prolly!

"Goodness is not a natural state, but must be
fought for to be attained and maintained.
Lead by example.
Let your deeds speak your intentions.
Goodness radiated from the heart."

The Paladin's Virtues, excerpt from the "Quentin's Monograph"
(by Ed Greenwood)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 05 Mar 2018 :  03:42:04  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Naw, that stuff bothers me as well.

So yesterday I was watching the video on the Shadar-Kai (or rather, rewatching, because the lore is VERY confusing), and they were talking about the Eladrin, who are "the eflyist elves" (their words, not mine), and how all these 'feyfolk' are able to 'absorb' the background radiation ('power') of a particular plane, so that while the Eladrin are the eflyist, the Shader-Kai are the 'shadowist' (so what does that make the Drow? The drowiest?)

Anyhow, it got me thinking about some of the stuff I worked on in the Elven netbook - the idea of 'Racial Paragons'. The idea was introduced in one of the 3e splats, and I ran with it. It allows us to give PC's some of the same powers those races get as NPCs, without unbalancing the game. I think either late 3e or 4e had something similar with monster races (was it Savage Species?), where you could take levels in the race, rather than the class, and I was really enamored of that concept. Something along these lines was mentioned for both the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai in the new MToF book. I've been saying for years D&D characters level along the wrong axis - your class is just a profession, and that can be entirely skill-based. but your 'race' is what makes you stand out, and what folks should really be leveling in. It seems they are taking tentative steps in that direction (a hybrid system right now).

After all, its how OD&D was. Until entitled gamers wanted to know why they couldn't have a dwarven wizard, or why they could level past a certain number (not that ANY DMs I knew used that rule). You give people a 1000 choices, and they'll focus on that 1001 thing you told them they couldn't do. So AD&D wound-up getting a system where everyone leveled the same (so every race felt the same), and the scant few limitations that remained on demihumans were weeded out over the editions. Because, ya know, Syndrome was right... "When everyone is special, NO-ONE is." Thus, a LOT of the flavor got washed-out over the years as well.

So at this point, everyone is probably wondering, "what the hell does this have to do with Minotaurs?" Everything, actually. Aside from the rather obvious way in which we can use the monster-levels to create a more 'epic' (mythological) version of a minotaur, there is also this paragon path-like way in which they are approaching the fey races. With that, we can have BOTH the mannish-minotaurs, and the hulking brutes, and they can be the same race. There is no need for us to create 'divergent branches' - it can be all about choices. If Fey can 'tap into' their feyness, why can't minotaurs tap into their... ummmm... Cowness?

And it can still work culturally. Some tribes might have certain people who 'get in touch with their inner minotaur', and become more bestial - larger, and more savage. They get those great big cloven hoof legs. While others may choose more... cerebral paths. Like in human barbarian tribes, not everyone is a 'Berserker', but some choose that path. But in a lot of cases, certain groups might be more predisposed toward one path over another, to the point where folks who choose the other path become ostracized. If you were growing up in a minotaur community, maybe you decided you like the swashbuckling style of fighting, even thought the rest of your clan are large, hulking brutes (tank-types). Even if they didn't kick you out, you'd probably still want to leave - to go and find an instructor that could teach you the kinds of things you want to learn.

In my proposed Minotaur community (in the Utter East), being a disciplined fighter was important, so that group preferred to stay more 'civilized'. however, I also proposed (due to stuff in the Blood & Magic video game) that there were still 'savage brutes' up in the mountains. now, what if they used to be from the other group? What if those were the ones who 'chose a different path'?

So it would work something like this - instead of choosing a normal class level, you could take a level of 'Inner Beast', and you get a +1 in a physical attribute (ST, Con, Dex) while loosing 1 pt. in a mental one (Wis & Int). I'd still leave Char out of this, because many still use it for a 'dump stat'. It could be that simple (I'm not sure if that would imbalance anything - it means not getting other abilities for leveling, etc HP). I say 'Inner Beast' because this can then be applied to other 'Savage species' as well, with certain restrictions based upon the race involved (for example, I wouldn't allow a Dex swap for a minotaur - only ST & Con). Other races might get dex in lieu of ST., like a 'ratman'. Something like mongrelmen should get to choose any of them. So if a mongrelman character just kept taking levels of 'Inner Beast', they be like the incredible Hulk after 10 levels.

And physically, they look more and more like their inner beast - a high level minotaur might eventually look like a giant, rampaging bull that can stand on its hind legs. One caveat - if you allow either Wis or Int to go down to 3 (you are not allowed to go lower), then the only weapon you can use is a club... and probably a makeshift one at that. Even if you use a sword or ax, it would still count as a club, because you've lost your ability to use it properly (you could be holding the blade and hitting with the handle). LOL

I'd also allow and shapeshifters to do this - lycanthropes and natural ones (but not dopplegangers and the like, because those don't have an 'inner beast' - they're just mimics). So and Elflord who takes the form of an elk can possibly grow some antlers and become some sort of 'Forest Lord' as he gets venerable.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 05 Mar 2018 03:49:11
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
7053 Posts

Posted - 06 Mar 2018 :  01:04:49  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay

Naw, that stuff bothers me as well.

So yesterday I was watching the video on the Shadar-Kai (or rather, rewatching, because the lore is VERY confusing), and they were talking about the Eladrin, who are "the eflyist elves" (their words, not mine), and how all these 'feyfolk' are able to 'absorb' the background radiation ('power') of a particular plane, so that while the Eladrin are the eflyist, the Shader-Kai are the 'shadowist' (so what does that make the Drow? The drowiest?)

Anyhow, it got me thinking about some of the stuff I worked on in the Elven netbook - the idea of 'Racial Paragons'. The idea was introduced in one of the 3e splats, and I ran with it. It allows us to give PC's some of the same powers those races get as NPCs, without unbalancing the game. I think either late 3e or 4e had something similar with monster races (was it Savage Species?), where you could take levels in the race, rather than the class, and I was really enamored of that concept. Something along these lines was mentioned for both the Eladrin and Shadar-Kai in the new MToF book. I've been saying for years D&D characters level along the wrong axis - your class is just a profession, and that can be entirely skill-based. but your 'race' is what makes you stand out, and what folks should really be leveling in. It seems they are taking tentative steps in that direction (a hybrid system right now).

After all, its how OD&D was. Until entitled gamers wanted to know why they couldn't have a dwarven wizard, or why they could level past a certain number (not that ANY DMs I knew used that rule). You give people a 1000 choices, and they'll focus on that 1001 thing you told them they couldn't do. So AD&D wound-up getting a system where everyone leveled the same (so every race felt the same), and the scant few limitations that remained on demihumans were weeded out over the editions. Because, ya know, Syndrome was right... "When everyone is special, NO-ONE is." Thus, a LOT of the flavor got washed-out over the years as well.

So at this point, everyone is probably wondering, "what the hell does this have to do with Minotaurs?" Everything, actually. Aside from the rather obvious way in which we can use the monster-levels to create a more 'epic' (mythological) version of a minotaur, there is also this paragon path-like way in which they are approaching the fey races. With that, we can have BOTH the mannish-minotaurs, and the hulking brutes, and they can be the same race. There is no need for us to create 'divergent branches' - it can be all about choices. If Fey can 'tap into' their feyness, why can't minotaurs tap into their... ummmm... Cowness?

And it can still work culturally. Some tribes might have certain people who 'get in touch with their inner minotaur', and become more bestial - larger, and more savage. They get those great big cloven hoof legs. While others may choose more... cerebral paths. Like in human barbarian tribes, not everyone is a 'Berserker', but some choose that path. But in a lot of cases, certain groups might be more predisposed toward one path over another, to the point where folks who choose the other path become ostracized. If you were growing up in a minotaur community, maybe you decided you like the swashbuckling style of fighting, even thought the rest of your clan are large, hulking brutes (tank-types). Even if they didn't kick you out, you'd probably still want to leave - to go and find an instructor that could teach you the kinds of things you want to learn.

In my proposed Minotaur community (in the Utter East), being a disciplined fighter was important, so that group preferred to stay more 'civilized'. however, I also proposed (due to stuff in the Blood & Magic video game) that there were still 'savage brutes' up in the mountains. now, what if they used to be from the other group? What if those were the ones who 'chose a different path'?

So it would work something like this - instead of choosing a normal class level, you could take a level of 'Inner Beast', and you get a +1 in a physical attribute (ST, Con, Dex) while loosing 1 pt. in a mental one (Wis & Int). I'd still leave Char out of this, because many still use it for a 'dump stat'. It could be that simple (I'm not sure if that would imbalance anything - it means not getting other abilities for leveling, etc HP). I say 'Inner Beast' because this can then be applied to other 'Savage species' as well, with certain restrictions based upon the race involved (for example, I wouldn't allow a Dex swap for a minotaur - only ST & Con). Other races might get dex in lieu of ST., like a 'ratman'. Something like mongrelmen should get to choose any of them. So if a mongrelman character just kept taking levels of 'Inner Beast', they be like the incredible Hulk after 10 levels.

And physically, they look more and more like their inner beast - a high level minotaur might eventually look like a giant, rampaging bull that can stand on its hind legs. One caveat - if you allow either Wis or Int to go down to 3 (you are not allowed to go lower), then the only weapon you can use is a club... and probably a makeshift one at that. Even if you use a sword or ax, it would still count as a club, because you've lost your ability to use it properly (you could be holding the blade and hitting with the handle). LOL

I'd also allow and shapeshifters to do this - lycanthropes and natural ones (but not dopplegangers and the like, because those don't have an 'inner beast' - they're just mimics). So and Elflord who takes the form of an elk can possibly grow some antlers and become some sort of 'Forest Lord' as he gets venerable.



They've started for 5e something akin to this with racial feats. The problem being though you either give up an ability score improvement or take a feat, and you don't get a lot of ability score improvements. Its also not a "separate progression" so you couldn't say "level up as a Halfling" separately while keeping say your druid level low.

One of my homebrew rules I wrote up to allow for more feats by trading off hit die is below. This isn't perfect either though, because I have several class abilities, feats, and or spells that require people to spend hit die (for instance, my vremyonni and Durthans use a ritual that creates a more powerful construct or telthor familiar respectively... and I've got a few feats revolving around blood magic and pacts ).

Optional Rules: Hit Dice Trading for Feats

Using the standard rules, if a character does not use his hit dice over several short rests during the day, at the end of the day he can essentially use all of his hit dice to usually restore himself to maximum hit points. However, in a party including healers, these hit dice may go to waste. Also, a player simply may want to establish that he's given up some of his personal vitality in exchange for power as his power grows (for instance, Raistlin).

Using these optional rules, at 5th, 10th, and 15th character level (not class level), the character is given the choice of giving up their next five hit dice gains in exchange for a feat. Whenever a new hit dice gain would be a smaller hit dice, then the character actually exchanges the already larger hit dice for a smaller hit dice. For instance, if a character had 5 levels as a fighter and then chooses to start leveling as a wizard, at each level of wizard level gain, he exchanges one of his current 1d10 hit dice for a 1d6 hit dice. For instance, if a character had 5 levels as a fighter and 4 levels as a wizard, and they had traded in hit dice for a feat, then they would have 1d10 + 4d6 hit dice in total. This gaining of always the lowest hit dice continues as the character levels, even if the character does not trade in future hit dice for feats. For instance, if the aforementioned character then chose to return to levelling to finally become a 8th level fighter and 5th level wizard, and he had still only traded in for the one feat, he would have 3d10 + 5d6 hit dice. If the aforementioned character had traded in hit dice for two feats, he would have 5d6 hit dice. At no point in leveling should the character have less than 5 total hit dice per day, but they should always be their lowest hit dice from all chosen classes. It should be noted that this is simply hit dice per day and not the increase in maximum hit points gained by leveling (such that the aforementioned 8th level fighter / 5th level wizard would still determine his maximum hit points by using 8d10 + 5d6 + 13 x Constitution Modifier).

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Tigon
Seeker

USA
36 Posts

Posted - 07 Mar 2018 :  08:12:31  Show Profile Send Tigon a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Here's the Ironfang Keep article written by Brian R James
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a" target="_blank">https://web.archive.org/web/20130531132751/http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drrl/20071107a

Edited by - Tigon on 07 Mar 2018 08:13:19
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
15675 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  06:10:25  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but while looking for something completely unrelated, I came across the year 1067 DR - Year of the Paladin Minotaur. I thought that was interesting. At least now I have a date for when my 'minotaur hero' saved the city of San Taur.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone

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LordofBones
Senior Scribe

704 Posts

Posted - 08 Mar 2018 :  10:48:10  Show Profile Send LordofBones a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Was that before or after someone walked up to him and said "Moo"?
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