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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 16:37:17
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Hello-
As I was reading through MoM = the general Hillsfar section - a certain Minotaur gladiator was mentioned....
Tonorok (LE male minotaur warrior 3) (* reference begins on p50, and wraps to p51 - but its only about a paragraph.*)
interestingly enough - it does mention 'a series of tunnels' that he has been gioven - i.e. - a maze possibly?
Just updating further Realmslore on Minotaurs! :)
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2006 : 18:23:35
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| An idea that occurs to me: perhaps there is a system of naturally-occurring caverns under and near this citystate. This would allow for underground farming of mushrooms and edible fungi, and for the grazing of Underdark rothé. This additional foodsource would mean less surface ground had to go to food production, helping keep the city hidden. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 10:40:25
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As long as there's adequate defenses, and the minotaurs take steps to ensure the caverns remain a secret (the caverns themselves may have at some point in their history... connected to the rest of the Underdark), that would certainly go aways toward keeping the minotaur city-state safe and completely self-sufficient.
Good stuff.
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 20:15:55
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| As always, the Sages of Candlekeep prove themselves to be in a class of their own! Wooly, the underground cavern farms are a great idea and fits in better with current Realmslore! I will ponder this issue more and write something up in a future post, unless someone else already has an idea... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 20:30:47
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 After re-reading my earlier timeline posts (the date of the last should be 1325 and not -1325?!?!)the afore-mentioned scenario of cavern farms fits in well with the scenario of the priests of Baphomet fleeing into the Underdark via caverns in the clearing in the Qurth Forest, where the city of Ketorn will be built... To insure the traitorous Baphomites? never bother them again they wall off the lower tunnels and seal it with powerful divine magic granted by Ketor.
After the gnomes arrival they supplement the city's food supply with more surface grown crops. |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 17:26:48
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Sages,
I submit this for your review and critique…
I have been trying to find a storyline to tie my current campaign in with the direction I have decided to go, so here it is…
My current storyline involves a young elven bard whose family was powerful in the elven kingdom of Earlann or Phalorm. Much of their power derived from their mages and High mages who created many portals connecting various elven realms and their own holdings together. Due to plotting by another house it was made to look as if the young elf’s family betrayed Earlann (or Phalorm) and this alleged betrayal contributed to the downfall of the realms. The family was disgraced in this time as many of its most influential members were killed in the fighting or through treachery. This disgrace continues to this day with the family being somewhat shunned on Evermeet. The family is small, but due to its faithful service to Queen Amlaruil has maintained its status as minor nobility due to her goodwill. Through the centuries many of the family has sought a way to clear the family’s honor. Part of this has been many attempts to recover the family’s moonblade… (not a quest the young bard will take up anytime soon…)
In the current year (1370) a Red Wizard of Thay has discovered the portal network this elven family made during the days of Earlann and a staff that acts as the key to activate the network. He has been using these portals to move slaves to finance his real goal: finding the artifact (possibly a remnant of one of the creator races) that allowed this elven family to create portals so easily. It is rumored that this artifact may be able to create portals into/through wards and mythals. As no High Mages of the family survived the fall of Earlann, the family’s memory of this artifact is largely forgotten. The PCs become caught up in a clash with the Red Wizard and are drawn into a campaign to rescue folks kidnapped by the Red Wizard. They will discover there is more to the campaign than just a rescue… After delivering a message to Silverymoon, for a Harper Agent they rescued, they will be approached to investigate this Red Wizard’s activities further… Once they discover that he is looking for this powerful item they will (lead by the Elven Bard) attempt to stop him from gaining the item…
This is how I plan on tying my campaign in with the ideas in this thread. The artifact that the elves entrusted to the Minotaurs was this portal-creating artifact. When I start this new “chapter” of my campaign the PC’s first task will be to get the Minotaurs on their side and convince them of the danger… Obviously, I need to adjust my timeline or story to make it fit better chronologically… There is more background to the storyline, but I did not want to bore you with ALL the details…
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 18:21:23
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I hope that i do not get thrown out of CandleKeep for necromancy... I am about to necro-post... Maybe, resurrect is a better term.
I recently started thinking about this project again and logged on to check on some of the details we had come up with. Hearing Wooly and Sage express interest in this got me fired up to continue developing this idea. (I also had to work through my anger issues with WotC, lol...)
The tough spot I had in writing this Minotaur history was the issue of which deity sponsored Ketor and raised him to Demi-power status? Torm would be excellent but is too modern in Realms history/lore. I thought Ilmater would be a good choice as he has been around the Realms for a long time and was drawn to the minotaurs suffering and perseverance through it all. Thinking of other Realms deities that are ancient in the Realms I thought of Selune and Lathander. Lathander could work as part of his new beginnings/starts portfolio. Selune would be cool because I think she is the neatest Realm's deity... Give me your thoughts, please.
Sage, are some of your ideas related to this topic? |
ShadowJack |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 18:37:06
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I'm glad this is back, after our earlier posts I had to sneak looks at this in darkened rooms when no one was looking  |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 18:54:41
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Thread necromancy is fine. 
As for the deity, it could be a fallen or now subsumed deity...
I found a couple of bits in the Grand History of the Realms that I think need to be considered, when doing the history of this city-state. From page 15 of that source, emphasis mine:
quote:
-10400 DR
Dark elves of Clan Sethomiir travel by magic to the Riildath (present-day Rawlinswood and Forest of Lethyr) from Ilythiir, guided by the hand of the balor Wendonai. They construct an underground fortress named Narathmault [-10000], "the Dark Pit," at the site of present-day Dun-Tharos, recognizing it as a place of great evil.
-10000 DR
Descent of the Drow:
Corellon’s magic, as directed through his priests and High Mages, transforms the dark elves, whether the corrupt Ilythiiri or others, into the drow. Whether by magic or by the weakesses that banish them from the sunlit lands, all drow retreat within two months’ passing into the Underdark.
-Elves are summoned by the Seldarine to the site that becomes the Elven Court one month after the Descent of the Drow, to settle differences and restore peace among the elves.
-Like their kin elsewhere, the dark elves of Narathmault [-10400, -9750] are transformed into drow by the will of the Seldarine, shattering their bindings over a host of fiends who swiftly turn on their former masters. Led by Undrek of Clan Sethomiir, the drow and their minotaur servants are forced to flee Narathmault, traveling south and east into the underground caverns beneath the present-day Plateau of Thay.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2009 : 23:01:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Sage, are some of your ideas related to this topic?
I'll have to check my notes. I know one of my basic ideas revolves around the second GHotR date Wooly just referenced above. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 00:55:11
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| You may be interested to know that I established a Minotaur kingdom in the Realms in my Dragon article Realmslore: Ironfang Keep. Grong-Haap ruled much of the eastern Moonsea region from -981 DR through -350 DR. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3285 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 03:51:00
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-Yes lets not forget that nice article BR.J!  
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 05:55:19
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Hmmm... I'd forgotten about that. They could be an offshoot of our city-state, or vice-versa... Or they could be the predecessor of it.
Was there any other info about Grong-Haap? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 06:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Hmmm... I'd forgotten about that. They could be an offshoot of our city-state, or vice-versa... Or they could be the predecessor of it.
Was there any other info about Grong-Haap?
As I recall, that's the first mention of Grong-Haap. Brian established that ancient realm for his "Moonsea" article.
I'll note further that some descendants of Grong-Haap still exist -- living in small clans beneath the Great Gray Land of Thar.
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 11:40:29
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Is all this minotaur information in a document somewhere?
And can anyone think of a good reason why a minotaur nation could not be in unclaimed political region between Turmish, the Dragon Coast and the Shining Plains? It looks like a heavily forested mountainous region with access to the coast, which could be home to a nation similar to the Minotaurs of Kyrnn. Any obvious geographical or historical issues with this concept? |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 13:19:44
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| I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them? |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 13:27:04
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Wrigs,
That area sounds plausible. We, were however trying to keep similarities between our Realms minotaurs and the DL minotaurs as few as possible. Heavy forests and mountains would be a good area for a minotaur kingdom.
Brian,
I will check this article out! Sounds like we could tie our minotaur culture in with existing Realms lore and create a whole history of minotaurs in the Realms.
Wooly,
What are you thinking about with the descent of the drow? Has there ever been a more evil group than the ancient Illythiiri? Every time some mention is made of them in a novel or source book these forebears of the drow just seem more mysterious and evil than any other... Perhaps they are the root cause of the giant kingdoms instability? The masters pulling the strings of their giant puppets, urging the giants to attack their elven adversaries... The giants were the tool the fallen elves used to strike back at the Seldarine...
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ShadowJack |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 13:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them?
Fair point but those bad boys can't half row! |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 13:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Is all this minotaur information in a document somewhere?
I've compiled most of the relevant info posted so far, but it's nowhere near ready for inclusion on the Candlekeep main-site.
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 13:53:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
Is all this minotaur information in a document somewhere?
I've compiled most of the relevant info posted so far, but it's nowhere near ready for inclusion on the Candlekeep main-site.
Is it stored somewhere on-line? Even in a rough draft format.
Cheers
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Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 14:27:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Wooly,
What are you thinking about with the descent of the drow? Has there ever been a more evil group than the ancient Illythiiri? Every time some mention is made of them in a novel or source book these forebears of the drow just seem more mysterious and evil than any other... Perhaps they are the root cause of the giant kingdoms instability? The masters pulling the strings of their giant puppets, urging the giants to attack their elven adversaries... The giants were the tool the fallen elves used to strike back at the Seldarine...
Well, basically, without getting into the giant kingdoms or anything, that reference gives us minotaurs already in the right general area.
While we could keep the giant kingdoms origin and then add in something with this other group, I favor sticking to existing lore as much as possible. So if it was entirely up to me, the origins of this city-state would be with this group that we already have in that general area. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 15:03:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
No, it exists just on my HD.
Shame.
Looks like I need to dig out my copy of Taladas the Minotaurs 
One of the big issues is creating a version of a minotaur that can be used as an average citizen. If I use the MM version then they start at 8th level, bit unbalanced compared to human nations. |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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Wrigs13
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 15:06:50
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| So does this incarnation of a minotaur nation hark back to the time when giants and dragons rules the realms? Or is it more recent than that? |
Do not try to understand the 4th edition. Thats impossible. Instead...only try to realise the truth. There is no 4th edition. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 15:57:00
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| Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together? |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 18:19:02
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together?
It's prolly easier to totally dump the giant connection. While it was a good idea, it involved spinning lore into a totally blank space. Going with the drow connection, though, means we're simply extrapolating on known lore.
I think it also allows us to borrow an idea from the Riftwar books... See, in those books, part of the elven backstory is that the two major elven races, the elves (eledhel) and the dark elves (moredhel, or the Brotherhood of the Dark Path) are physically one race -- the only physical differences tend to be in hair color, and that's not even universal. And it's possible for an elf to become a moredhel, and vice-versa.
The reason the two races are different goes back thousands of years, to when a race of godlike beings, the Valheru, ruled the world. The elves (all types) were their slaves. The eledhel were generally left tending to the forests, while the moredhel were more often directly serving the Valheru. So the moredhel were basically tainted by that association. When the Valheru left, the elves said "Yay, we're free!", but the moredhel said "We will reclaim the power of our lost masters!", and continued to visit and hang around places the Valheru had been. So they became some really evil gits (though not as bad as drow), while the elves went the route of common fantasy elves. Some moredhel have thrown off the taint and Returned, becoming eledhel, but there have also been some elves that fell and joined the Dark Brothers. Moredhel and eledhel can distinguish between the races on sight, but any other race is going to have to rely on where they are and what the elf-type is doing.
Anyway, our civilized minotaurs could have split off and shunned their former masters, but some of them could have relished their former status as paid bullies and favored servants. So the latter group could still hang out in the Underdark and be happily savage, while the others tried to better themselves.
Oh, and as an aside, the name "Ketorn" just doesn't work as well for me. I keep wanting to call it "Keltorn", which I like better. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3240 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 18:28:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Well, I am embarrassed, I read through that passage you posted two times, and each time I have missed the key phrase "their minotaur servants". This puts minotaurs in the Thayan plateau area and makes the timeline more plausible... So, instead of the giants we could use this group of dark elves... This would explain why the Ketorn minotaurs avoided the UnderDark; they were staying away from their former masters... Don't hold back Wooly, tell me how you see this working out. Should we just ditch the giant tie in all together?
It's prolly easier to totally dump the giant connection. While it was a good idea, it involved spinning lore into a totally blank space. Going with the drow connection, though, means we're simply extrapolating on known lore.
I think it also allows us to borrow an idea from the Riftwar books... See, in those books, part of the elven backstory is that the two major elven races, the elves (eledhel) and the dark elves (moredhel, or the Brotherhood of the Dark Path) are physically one race -- the only physical differences tend to be in hair color, and that's not even universal. And it's possible for an elf to become a moredhel, and vice-versa.
The reason the two races are different goes back thousands of years, to when a race of godlike beings, the Valheru, ruled the world. The elves (all types) were their slaves. The eledhel were generally left tending to the forests, while the moredhel were more often directly serving the Valheru. So the moredhel were basically tainted by that association. When the Valheru left, the elves said "Yay, we're free!", but the moredhel said "We will reclaim the power of our lost masters!", and continued to visit and hang around places the Valheru had been. So they became some really evil gits (though not as bad as drow), while the elves went the route of common fantasy elves. Some moredhel have thrown off the taint and Returned, becoming eledhel, but there have also been some elves that fell and joined the Dark Brothers. Moredhel and eledhel can distinguish between the races on sight, but any other race is going to have to rely on where they are and what the elf-type is doing.
Anyway, our civilized minotaurs could have split off and shunned their former masters, but some of them could have relished their former status as paid bullies and favored servants. So the latter group could still hang out in the Underdark and be happily savage, while the others tried to better themselves.
Oh, and as an aside, the name "Ketorn" just doesn't work as well for me. I keep wanting to call it "Keltorn", which I like better.
Huh... That's almost exactly the Eberron history of the Elves/Drow being slaves to the Giants before their fall. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 18:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Huh... That's almost exactly the Eberron history of the Elves/Drow being slaves to the Giants before their fall.
Really? Perhaps Keith Baker is also a fan of Raymond E Feist... The Riftwar books have been around for years; I was reading those before I ever read anything by TSR (except the Endless Quest novels). |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 20:22:11
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| I loved the story of Pug as he goes from a nobody to one of the Great Ones! Wooly, it seems you and I read the same books growing up... I read the Riftwar saga long before I found the first Greyhawk novels. (Gord the Rogue) I will be pulling out my tomes in the next couple of days to research the re-write of the Keltorn Minotaurs. (I also like the suggestion of the name change) |
ShadowJack |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2009 : 22:37:31
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How about Kelthorn? I like the idea of getting the word 'horn' in their somehow.
I'm also going to have to figure out how all of this relates to my own ancient (as in primordial) Minotaur Kingdom I placed in the Utter East (in the mountains). I had tie-ins with the Yakfolk to the South, and also placed Bargda (Ibixian in 3e) - Goatfolk - in the eastern Yehimal region. I had it where all three are were created in ancient times as servitor races of the Rakshasa (living in the Indianesque portions of FR - lower Utter East, the Sempadan, Tempat larang, and the lower K-T/Malatran Jungles).
I've also created a race of half-Minotaurs, called Vogalts, for my homebrew world. basically HUGE Vikings (Firbolgs?), but when they take off their helmets... the horns are still there!
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I personally don't like the idea of minotaur sailors. As I've pointed out before, can you imagine how strong the rigging would have to be to support them?
Spidersilk (with the highest tensile strength known) purchased from the Drow?
quote:
Originally posted by Wrigs13
And can anyone think of a good reason why a minotaur nation could not be in unclaimed political region between Turmish, the Dragon Coast and the Shining Plains?
Yes.
Its called Cormyr.
As for a placement for modern 'Minotaur Pirates' a'la Taladas, I'd just give them the Isle of Prespur and be done with it. I forget what's there, but I'm sure losing it won't make a bit of difference to FR lore.
Certainly goes against canon, but if you want 'em, then that won't effect much. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Feb 2009 16:29:46 |
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Minotaur Cultures in the Realms?
