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Nagash of Clangeddin
Acolyte
Germany
2 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 13:01:25
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I'm new to this forum, so at first a big hello to everyone. Candlekeep is a great side, and as far as I can say the forum is really great too.
Now here's my Problem: I want to run the mentioned Adventure trilogy. But as I started reading it, I found out that the idea and the plot is really nice but the Adveture lacks dramatically of some internal logic. I will give a few examples of what I mean:
- In front of the tomb.
The party is attacked by some Zhents. Their wizards both teleport away, leaving the Zhent soldiers behind. For a serious attempt to subdue the party at least one wizard should stay and support his soldiers. I would even suggest that both stay and aid the zhentish soldiers and only retreat by teleporting if things go wrong.
- Inside the tomb.
The PCs find a note 'Seek my in Spiderhaunt Wood. Randal Morn' (or similar). It's obviously a fake, because Randal vanished in a flash of light as reported by Ariton. And why is the Sword of the Dales again in the tomb?
- If Gothyls plan is to ascend to a demishade, why not simply drain Randal Morn of his life force? Why entrapping him in a dreamglobe?
- Spiderhaunt Woods.
Here the PCs are followed by a Zhent party. Why? The PCs and 'lured' into Spiderhaunt by Gothyl. But the Zhents? The 'disguise' of Gothyl as Hedestrin is not very likely to believed. How does she know about the skulls, when the sword was in the tomb while Randal was imprisoned in the dreamglobe?
- In Gothyls Tower.
The Zhents touch the skulls. ??? A fight is going on and they do not know anything about the skulls! Why is Illthond allowed to flee? If Randal is not enough to ascend to demishade, he surely is. That Gothyl has the power to overcome him, and is willing to do so, is shown in the third part of the Adventure, where exactly this happens.
The list is far away from beeing complete. The more I think about it, I come to the conclusion that there's no logic at all in this Adventure. O.K. this is Fantasy Role Playing and still a game and not mathematics where you need a rigid proof for everything. But some common sense should be affordable, or?
To all that DMs which have played this Adventure. How did you overcome this problems? At the moment I'm feeling like rewriting the Adventure, because in its current form, I will run into serious troubles when my players ask me anything about the Adventure.
Quite long post already, so I better stop.
Greetings and felicitations, children of the realms!
Nagash of Clangeddin
P.S. English is not my native language, but I try to improve, so corrections on my english are also welcome.
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Der Gott, der Eisen wachsen liess der wollte keine Knechte.
Drum gab er Axt und Spiess dem Zwerg in seine Rechte. |
Edited by - Nagash of Clangeddin on 22 Feb 2006 13:06:27
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 17:54:25
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Well met, Nagash of Clangeddin
Welcome to Candlekeep. Glad ye found thy way herein and thank ye for the kind words 
I quite understand thy feelings on this series of adventures. It is quite a weak flow through the adventures and I ran them myself some years ago. Needless to say, I spent a vast amount of time fleshing our details and adding extra elements to each module. I'll try to find my notes on this and see if I can help ye out. I didn't change the basic flow and outcome of the series, just added more goodness 
I'd be interested to hear anyone else's experiences of running these adventures in the meantime, however 
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 23:46:18
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I'm just about to play these modules myself.
I had the big problem, that in my campaign Randal Morn has already retaken Daggerdale...
So I have started with Randal Morn leaving the Dale in search for the famous sword. He has gone for a few days, but the Zhentarim have secretly taken Daggerfalls, but everybody has to know yet. One Daggerdale soldier has mentioned to my party, that something is amiss, but couldn't speak. In the meantime the party has been sent by Mourngrim to Snowmantle to solve the Zhentsproblem there. As soon as they return, they will have to start rescuing Randal Morn
About the missing logic, I agree, an adventure has to be logic in itself, or it simply is a bad adventure. I have found pretty much the same flaws, but haven't worked on them.
@ Alaundo: please share your ideas with us! Would save me too a lot of extra work |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 01:25:12
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I also ran that trilogy, though for me it was complicated by the fact that a few years prior another group of mine had run Doom of Daggerdale, and one of the PC's (an elven bladesinger and Harper agent) had manipulated his way into the Constable's favor, becoming Deputy Constable. That player and I kept up that storyline, with the end result being that this Harper double agent ascended to the rank of Constable and practically ran the entire Zhent-occupied Dale for several years. I actually brought him in when I was running the trilogy, with him controlling all the Zhents.
Boy my players were suprised when their supposed nemesis threw off his Zhent colors and started hacking apart his former underlings at the climax of the third adventure... |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Nagash of Clangeddin
Acolyte
Germany
2 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 09:03:59
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Thank you so far.
@Alaundo:
It would be very helpful, if you can send me those notes.
If someone is interested, I will post my preparations and my experiences how they worked when actually running the adventure. We will start with the trilogy (hopefully!) the first weekend in march.
Would be nice, if someone can provide a few ideas and suggestions up to this time.
May the Father of Battle be with you!
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Der Gott, der Eisen wachsen liess der wollte keine Knechte.
Drum gab er Axt und Spiess dem Zwerg in seine Rechte. |
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Iliphar1
Learned Scribe
Austria
133 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 10:56:14
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I think I will expand Gothyl's plan to a similar plan as Azalin in the Ravenloft Campaign. He will not only attempt to drain the life force of one single character, but rather all life forces of whole Daggerdale. Since he can cast 9th level spells, he is absolutely dangerous. I would give him some minor undead as spectres, who drained the lifeforce of some people in Daggerdale to initiate the ritual. (another adventure hook, strange killings, who is behind it?)
After looking at the characters in the 3 modules, I doubt, anybody would have a chance in melee against Gothyl, neither Zhentarim nor PC, nor Freedom riders. (After all, she casts 9th level spells!!!)
I guess I will make my party team up with the Zhentarim to get rid of Gothyl, and continue fighting each other afterwards. |
'You see dead bones? ... I see an army!' Ezechiel 37 |
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crustaceomutoid
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2006 : 05:39:14
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| Are you playing with 2e rule sets or did you convert it to 3.5? I am DM'ing a group that have just met Gothyl in her tower for the first time. If you want I can tell you what changes I have made with the adventures for 3.5. Just drop me an email. |
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MagnusMalkus
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 16:19:11
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I'm wondering if this topic/site is too old to get a response from. I did a search in hopes of finding an answer, or at least some inspiration, on how to handles THIS EXACT PROBLEM...
I've had this module in my library for YEARS but I'm only running it for the first time pretty soon.
The original poster had the same exact logical disconnect I'm having and I can't seem to work around it!
"Inside the tomb.
The PCs find a note 'Seek my in Spiderhaunt Wood. Randal Morn' (or similar). It's obviously a fake, because Randal vanished in a flash of light as reported by Ariton. And why is the Sword of the Dales again in the tomb?"
My point exactly. I can support no good reason why the PC's shouldn't suspect traps & treachery right then & there. If Randall went to the tomb with the intent to secure the sword, assuming he had the time to scribe the note instructing whoever finds the sword to seek him in Spiderhaunt, why the heck didn't he just take it with him?!?!
No. Sense. Whatsoever. To my mind, it's an obvious lure. A trap. And indeed, it is. There's no evidence to postulate anything but suspicion. You'd think the deception would be a bit more convincing if Gothyl had been working on her lich-aspirant plans for Lathander-knows-how-many-years.
Did I miss some clue in the module that might smooth the bump of this glaring trap over? What are the players SUPPOSED to think? That he really left it behind unprotected? Is the party SUPPOSED to believe it a trap and walk into said trap anyway? Maybe... I suppose half warned is half armed, and Randall's still 'missing' so there's no choice except pursuit (unless the players decide to embark upon a new adventure). Pretty weak lead, tho.
ANY SUGGESTIONS? Or should I continue my search for advice elsewhere? Or just accept the weak link and let the pc's decisions lead where they may?
Thanks for your time and attention, folks! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Mar 2014 : 16:33:36
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| The only thing I can possibly add to this discussion is that I had all three modules for years, saw many of the same problems the OP did, and never ran it. I usually take pre-fab adventures and 'spruce them up' (because there are always problems, and they also lack a lot of depth), but I just felt this particular trilogy just wasn't worth the bother. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Xzaviar73
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2014 : 15:54:48
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I am currently running the Triology converted to 3.5, and preceded the adventure with the Doom of Daggerdale.
I agree the plot line in the modules is lacking some consistency or rather lacked a plan together that you would expect from an enemy such as Gothyl.
I had ran it that Gothyl had been planning for a very long time to subvert rulership of Daggerdale. She had chosen the Sword of the Dales for just that reason. However due to the ritual not working quite like she had planned it took a bit of time to gather enough power and resources, as well as time for her name to pass from human memory.
With the Sword of Dales as her Phylactary she needed Randal Morn who is viewed as the rightful ruler, so once he took back the dale his rule would not be challenged. Her plan was to get him to retrieve the sword, and lure him to the tower so her apprentices could take over his trusted men. However the Zhents interupted her plan. She was left with nothing but to plant a suggestion in Ariton to find someone worthy. (enter the PCs)
With Randal secreted away in her tower she laid the trap. Her Plan is to take a hold of PC's have them serve as a hero to rescue Randal, help him free the dales from the Zhents and Position her apprentices in a position to be close to the new ruler of the dales. In the Process she will have the opportunity to Drain Illithond of his power and achieve demishade status.
Ofcourse not everything goes to plan.. only two PCs in my game had succumbed to the possessions, so she has abandoned her current plan for the dales, but has vowed vengence on Illthond for interfering, the two of the possessed was charged with Supporting the PCs and there quest for Randal, so she can use Illthond to achieve her demi-Shade status. Also they are to gain control of the sword so once she has completed her task she can steal away with the sword and Possessed individual holding the sword.
She still craves dominion, but it will be a while as she grows into her new status, but needs to ensure the sword is safe.
One major change I had to make is Illthond was replaced by Colderan Morn from doom of Daggerdale as the PC's failed to defeat him prior to him taking over Daggerfalls, and the Zhents allied with him providing the powerbase needed. He Knew of the sword of the dales and thus was searching for it, which is how Randal's Spies was able to advise of his plan and spurn Randal to look for it. |
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Cbad285
Learned Scribe
160 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2014 : 09:27:22
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iv run these several times.
Here are some quick notes on what i did...
Started in Doom of Daggerdale, introducing Randle Mourn and his family, setting up the good guys. Introducing the bad guy element.
Moved to Sword of the dales after group found themselves in Shadowdale, which inevitably will happen. One way I lured them there was being gathered to a meeting of the lords of the dales over a discussion of politics in cormyr. After doom of dagger dale I made the pc's land owners.
made Giventhar more important and buffed up it's hiding place. Left a open place for more adventures by putting Giventhar in a room filled with other sword cases, however concernedly empty.
Allowed wizard who manages to investigate the crystal skulls long enough to figure out how to reverse the spell, absorbing gothyl into a single skull creating a great magical item for a creative young mage.
Created an encounter with cormyrian soldiers on the tethyamere trail who agree to join the freedom riders to take back Daggerdale. Set up future disagreements between Randal Mourn and Cormyrians to fore shadow an attempt by cormyr to remove lordships in the dales and widen Cormyr's territories.
Gave the pc's more land
allowed them to replace positions in Daggerdale after the take over. Otherwise I left them with the attention on the empty sword cases they found in Sharavyns Tomb. Eventually this led them to the 'temple of chaos' mod that I ran which fit perfectly with the strange weapons found in the mod. Hopefully someone betrays the party as the strange dark gods start to twist their emotions and alignment around and then you have the last piece of the puzzle, being a antagonist who is close to the pcs.
...thats all i got. srry for the miss spells |
"Beware the Dream Fever!" |
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Sword of the dales/Randal Morn trilogy
