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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 20:06:31
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Poll Question:
Ok, I always had some sympathy for Elaith Craulnober... So, is there anyone who thinks that Elaith could have been a good guy if he had not been rejected by his moonblade ?
Yes, I am one of those,  , I don't think Elaith is truly evil at the core, I just think he had a traumatizing experience...
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 20:18:58
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| My thought's are that after the last ec novel on this series, he is having some life choices decisions being made and his alignment may be changing to more of a "good" character. he has always seemed to me at least, to be an Elf that has just been dealt some tough blows, which obviously has created who he is. my thinking/ hope is that in the next novel we will see some more changes in Elaith that will make him a better person (Elf) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 23:34:26
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Well, I would say he might be now, but that would be after coming full circle. I think being rejected by his Moonblade made Elaith feel like somehow he must be tainted, but in the end, there may have been other issues as to his unworthiness. In the end, if he would never had made a good leader, or if he lacked the confidence to become importance, and the blades in the end have to do with the rulership of Evermeet, that may have been why he was rejected.
Elaith of course took this to mean not that he was unworthy as a leader or someone that could stand on their own, but that he had some kind of taint, an evil within him. Once he was convinced of this, he let this direct his path. How many times have you heard that if someone keeps telling you that you are no good or are unworthy, you will start to act that way, simply because you have never had the reinforcement of knowing that they are all wrong. The moonblade should have been able to read his heart, so it should KNOW unequivically if he is good or not.
The funny thing is, in the Dreamspheres he starts looking for the Mhaorkiira (sp?) to see if it reads his heart as evil. In a way, Elaith is kinda insecure, and wants something to tell him point blank if he is good or evil. Perhaps as a royal guardsman on Evermeet he never thought about if any actions were good or evil, he just assumed that he was always doing what was right and wrong because OF COURSE a royal guardsman of Evermeet is doing what is right. So when the had to examine if he could be a good warrior and patriot and defender of Evermeet, and still not be worthy, it called into question a lot of things he never thought he would have to ponder at all. Its an uncomfortable feeling to think that now you have to reason and justify something that at one time you thought was automatic.
In a way, he took a bit of the easier way out. Other than ponder what about him might make him unworthy, and to try and find out if it was something he could change, or something he could live with, he decided to just prove the sword right by showing it how unworthy he could be. But deep down he really did learn all of those lessons about beauty and art and life and love and right and wrong, so all of this proving that he was unworthy never made him happy.
I think in the end, he hasn't so much convinced himself that he is good or worthy, but he might have gotten to a point in his life where he has realized that just because he is not up to the moonblade's standard doesn't mean that he has to be a horrible villain either. Ironically, it might be this revelation that the moonblade was "looking" for. It may be that if he had ever been in an important position, perhaps even in line for the throne, and he still carried the kind of black and white, reflexive view of right and wrong from his youth, he would never have served elvenkind well.
Which leads to questioning about what really happened in "A Game of Chance" if you have read this particular short story. Did what Elaith thinks happened happen, or did something else happen that he is still too quick to write off as impossible, or as already settled.
Facinating character, and I would love it if Elaine would get to write just and only about our dear fallen Moon Elf. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 00:34:33
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| The elf seemed to me to be a bit more towards the CN alignment type, I agree that Elaith can be good but that will depend on fate and circumstances that will determine whether he will shift towards the good or bad alignment, as different experiences can shape a person's character. Elaith, IMO, may had been traumatised and disillusioned, needs a bit of adaptation if he would wish to see himself redeemed. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 03:11:36
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| I too feel that it would be interesting to see more of this character and my hope is that he will make a significant appearance in EC's next novel about Arilyn and Danillo. time will tell, but the villians lorebook, shows Elaith to be nuetral evil. Does anyone have a 3rd edition write up on him, that shows something differant? |
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Sadonayerah Odrydin
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 04:25:54
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| My vote is yes. The moonblade experience is very traumatizing. And he has (as previously mentioned) begun to change in alignment. I think that the character of Elaith should be expanded a bit more. He's probably one of my favs in the whole Forgotten Realms. |
"What's that," asked Mogget.
"Sardines," said Sam. "I knew they were standard rations, so I got a few tins for you."
"What are sardines?" Moggest asked suspiciously. "And why is there a key? Is this some sort of Abhorsen joke?"
Abhorsen by Garth Nix
"What you made a vampire...Pomeranian?!" --Hannibal King from Blade Trinity
~Sadie |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 07:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I too feel that it would be interesting to see more of this character and my hope is that he will make a significant appearance in EC's next novel about Arilyn and Danillo. time will tell, but the villians lorebook, shows Elaith to be nuetral evil. Does anyone have a 3rd edition write up on him, that shows something differant?
Page 182 of the FRCS lists him as NE. I also checked City of Splendors: Waterdeep, but it simply said to check the FRCS. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 17:31:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 182 of the FRCS lists him as NE. I also checked City of Splendors: Waterdeep, but it simply said to check the FRCS.
It`s a sad day when we take everything written in the sourcebooks at face value.........(directs a stern look at Wooly) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 19:13:44
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 182 of the FRCS lists him as NE. I also checked City of Splendors: Waterdeep, but it simply said to check the FRCS.
It`s a sad day when we take everything written in the sourcebooks at face value.........(directs a stern look at Wooly)
now we are getting to division of the novels v.s the sourcebooks, big fun . My comment was meant to reflect game terms, going from a NE alignment to to a "good" formed alignment, would be quite a jump. I was interested in getting updated 3E lore, if any on what his alignment would be. (did it change from 2E to 3E, to correspond with the EC's novels, or remain at NE). I did combine my thoughts on novel vs. sourcebook, but since the topic is in FR chat, I am guessing that quoting sourcebook material would not be incorrect. I am still very interested in seeing more information on this character, as he is one of the most facinating characters, to me, in the forgotten realms. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 19:24:08
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Elaith has been NE ever since Ed created him in Waterdeep & the North, so for 2 editions he has been NE.
1e and 2e sourcebooks that have info on him are: Waterdeep & the North, Cities of Splendors box set. Heroes Lorebook. Villians Lorebook. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 20:34:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Elaith has been NE ever since Ed created him in Waterdeep & the North, so for 2 editions he has been NE.
Ed ???  I thought Elaith was Mrs.Cunningham's creation...  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2006 : 20:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Elaith has been NE ever since Ed created him in Waterdeep & the North, so for 2 editions he has been NE.
Ed ??? I thought Elaith was Mrs.Cunningham's creation...
Nope, that is a common error. Ed created him but Elaine has since used him repeatedly. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 19 Feb 2006 20:41:43 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 00:31:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Elaith has been NE ever since Ed created him in Waterdeep & the North, so for 2 editions he has been NE.
Ed ??? I thought Elaith was Mrs.Cunningham's creation...
Nope, that is a common error. Ed created him but Elaine has since used him repeatedly. :)
And Elaine has discussed this, and her borrowing the character from Ed here at Candlekeep. Check out the compiled replies archive.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:03:01
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Page 182 of the FRCS lists him as NE. I also checked City of Splendors: Waterdeep, but it simply said to check the FRCS.
It`s a sad day when we take everything written in the sourcebooks at face value.........(directs a stern look at Wooly)
It was asked if he was statted in 3E. He was. I stated this. Where is the issue?
Besides, while I'm not the stickler for canon that some people are, I do try to stick with it. Everything we've seen of Elaith since his self-exile has indicated an evil alignment. Granted, he has done the occasional good act, but being evil does not preclude good actions. His current primary methodology reflects what is written in the rulebooks: Elaith is now neutral evil.
Elaith may have been good before the rejection of his moonblade, but I'm inclined to think he was more LN. When his moonblade rejected him, I think it made him question everything he had been. I'm inclined to think that he thought that since the straight and narrow path wasn't good enough for the moonblade, he might as well given in to the darkness that he thought the moonblade perceived in him. He is used to wearing this mantle now, but there is a part of him that wants to return to the light -- hence his concern in Dream Spheres, over whether or not he was beyond redemption.
I'm not sure, right now, if he'll return to the side of good or not. I think it's more likely that as Azariah gets older, he'll drift back to neutrality -- but he'll likely still have a hard edge. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:05:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Elaith has been NE ever since Ed created him in Waterdeep & the North, so for 2 editions he has been NE.
Ed ??? I thought Elaith was Mrs.Cunningham's creation...
Nope, that is a common error. Ed created him but Elaine has since used him repeatedly. :)
And Elaine has discussed this, and her borrowing the character from Ed here at Candlekeep. Check out the compiled replies archive.
And, if I remember correctly, Ed has been quite pleased with the way Elaine has handled Elaith. I don't have the exact quote handy, but I seem to recall him saying that she had nailed his character perfectly. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And, if I remember correctly, Ed has been quite pleased with the way Elaine has handled Elaith. I don't have the exact quote handy, but I seem to recall him saying that she had nailed his character perfectly.
You do recall correctly. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 03:43:30
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Just a gentle correction here: Ed didn't create Elaith for (or in) FR1. Elaith was a living, breathing NPC in the original Realms campaign for YEARS (at least 8) before FR1 was published. I have read three early, never-published Realms short stories by Ed, set in Waterdeep, that have Elaith in them. (And yes, they're as good as any other fictional depictions of Elaith I've read, though much shorter.)
love to all,
THO |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 15:52:07
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Very fascinating discussion, Sages!
I believe that Elaith is evil. I think he is reexamining himself, and his daughter has much to do with his change. He was raised in Queen Amlaruil's household and was not evil then. His rejection by the Moonblade deeply embittered him and then Amnestria running off with Bran Skorlson (hope I got the name right) was the final blow to his damaged self image. I truly think that his daughter and recent events are causing him to study himself and make some changes. I agree with Wooly that he will always have a very "hard edge", but, I think he will not be "evil" for much longer. The latest novel showed him making a quick, evil decision and then correcting it, and not for the reason the other person assumed... Great character, great discussion... I hope that I kept this bland enough that I did not give any spoilers but made the point I was aiming at.
By the way, as I am somewhat new here, does The Hooded One always drop by and give us these tantalizing snippets and then disappear back into the ether? Unpublished stories,Talk about teasing us!!! |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 15:55:17
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A quick side-note here... How do you think King Zaor's assasination affected him, being raised as a Royal Gaurdsmen and all... Is there anything written about that?
KEJr, Where does the short story A Game of Chance appear? Thanks! |
ShadowJack |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 17:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Very fascinating discussion, Sages!
I believe that Elaith is evil. I think he is reexamining himself, and his daughter has much to do with his change. He was raised in Queen Amlaruil's household and was not evil then. His rejection by the Moonblade deeply embittered him and then Amnestria running off with Bran Skorlson (hope I got the name right) was the final blow to his damaged self image.
I wonder if the creation of the Moonblades by that elf mage (don't rememer exactly his name at this moment) was not a mistake. I always wonder if the killing strike delivered by the swords is such a good idea. I mean, let's take Elaith here : he seemed a fine fellow on Evermeet, yet it seems that rather his experience with the Moonblade drove him to evil, not the Moonblade sensed evil in him. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 17:29:29
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
A quick side-note here... How do you think King Zaor's assasination affected him, being raised as a Royal Gaurdsmen and all... Is there anything written about that?
The assassination itself was first in Elfshadow, and then covered in more detail in Evermeet: Island of the Elves. If you're referring to Elaith's reaction to it, I don't believe it's been covered. We've not seen much of Elaith from before his arrival in Waterdeep. We see some in the latter novel I mentioned, but it's well before his moonblade rejected him.
In fact, now that I think about it... Do we know when his moonblade rejected him? It may have been before Zaor was assassinated. I'd have to check the novel for that one...
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
KEJr, Where does the short story A Game of Chance appear? Thanks!
It was in Dragon 335, a fairly recent issue. There is a "Best of Elaine" book coming out at some point in the future, which I believe will reprise all of her FR short stories. |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2006 : 17:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
A quick side-note here... How do you think King Zaor's assasination affected him, being raised as a Royal Gaurdsmen and all... Is there anything written about that?
The assassination itself was first in Elfshadow, and then covered in more detail in Evermeet: Island of the Elves. If you're referring to Elaith's reaction to it, I don't believe it's been covered. We've not seen much of Elaith from before his arrival in Waterdeep. We see some in the latter novel I mentioned, but it's well before his moonblade rejected him.
In fact, now that I think about it... Do we know when his moonblade rejected him? It may have been before Zaor was assassinated. I'd have to check the novel for that one...
Yes. It was before Zaor's assassination. It is stated in Evermeet and Realms of Infamy.
We see something about Elaith before the rejection in Realms of Infamy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 01:39:00
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Could he be good? Of course. So I voted yes.
Is he good? No. Would I want him to be good? Not really. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Arlenion
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 03:12:12
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| I agree with Wooly. Perhaps he placed the law above individuals and treated people harshly before he tried to claim the moonblade and this was what caused the moonblade to reject him. Afterwards the shock of the rejection made him exile himself. Maybe he then lost any restraint over his harsher side in the struggle to survive becoming neutral evil. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 16:59:37
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| It's also possible that Elaith was just plain evil before the moonblade rejected him...which makes all the more sense that it would reject him, IMO. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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WalkerNinja
Senior Scribe
USA
573 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 17:10:07
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I like Elaith as a CN. To me he seems like an elven version of Robert E. Howard's Conan. No, he's not a barbarian or filled with lusts (for both battle and other things), but he's sure of himself, knows where he's going and what he's doing, knows who he'll betray and who he won't, and above all is a survivor. His system of honor is not one commonly shared by others, but it is intact.
Its a thin analogy, but I think it holds. |
*** A Forgotten Realms Addict since 1990 ***
Treasures of the Past, a Second Edition Play-by-Post game for and by Candlekeep Sages--http://www.rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=52011 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:00:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
It's also possible that Elaith was just plain evil before the moonblade rejected him...which makes all the more sense that it would reject him, IMO.
Possible, but not likely. As I said above, I think that what happened with the moonblade (and the consequences) is what turned him to evil. I can't see an evil elf being captain of the guard and bethrothed to a princess.
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 Feb 2006 18:02:16 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:04:59
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Yeah, the shorthand of what I had said earlier, with more game terms used, is that Elaith was neutral but always assumed he was good, and when he found out that he wasn't, he decided that it was all or nothing, and he became evil.
But Wooly, if there had been another Craulnobur heir that could claim the blade, he would have been toast.
Why did I just get a weird voice in my head saying, "there is . . . another . . . Craulnobur . . . "
Of course that phrase only makes sense later on when Aziriah gets older and finds out that . . . well, you know. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:32:13
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| Maybe, I guess only Ed and Elaine know for sure. :) Or maybe the matter is left open to speculation. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 18:37:41
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| Judging by his character from various novels etc I voted no. For two reasons, 1. his actions and 2. I LIKE HIM EVIL!! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 01:30:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
It's also possible that Elaith was just plain evil before the moonblade rejected him...which makes all the more sense that it would reject him, IMO.
Possible, but not likely. As I said above, I think that what happened with the moonblade (and the consequences) is what turned him to evil. I can't see an evil elf being captain of the guard and bethrothed to a princess.
I'd agree with that. Elaine has noted that part of Elaith's failing is his inherent arrogance... even before the moonblade.
She notes here -
"But Elaith is not without arrogance -- a common failing among the People -- and although he knew the history and powers of the Craulnober blade, he was certain he was equal to the task. There was no one to tell him otherwise.
In other words, the sword and the wielder have to be well matched."
Which tells me that the actual "rejection" of the moonblade only had a greater effect upon Elaith and his alignment because of his earlier arrogance that he was "ready" for it.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 25 Feb 2006 01:31:20 |
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Elaith Craulnober could be good
