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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2006 :  20:36:59  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
This is a call out to all scribes, but particularly our resident expert on these matters, George Krashos.

I've been intrigued by the recent information on Impiltur provided in Champions of Ruin and the hints I've gotten from reading about Champions of Valor (I can't afford to buy myself a copy yet). The problem is, outside of them there's not a lot of published lore that I can find on Impiltur and I'm having a hard time just comprehending in the most basic terms what kind of society it is and the "national character" of the place, if you will.

Cormyr, the Dales and Waterdeep (and now to a lesser extent Sembia) are all easily comprehensible to me as individual societies with unique traits, but I can't say the same about Impiltur. I understand there is a council of Paladins, but does that mean that Knighthood and Chivalry compose a large part of society? Mercantile matters are also strongly hinted at in the available lore, but clearly they don't dominate things to the extent they do in other nations like Amn and Sembia.

Am I missing any good sources of Realmslore? I still don't have Champions of Valor, but otherwise my 3rd Edition collection of sourcebooks is complete. As for older editions, I have all versions of the Campaign Setting and various 2nd Edition sourcebooks too numerous to list, but which don't have any direct info.

Any information, even that which is not strictly cannon, would be great to get a clearer picture of this corner of the Realms.

Many thanks in advance,

GH

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Kajehase
Great Reader

Sweden
2104 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2006 :  21:02:44  Show Profile Send Kajehase a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The only thing I can think of off the top of my head aren't sourcebooks, but a novel, The Rage, by Richard Lee Byers and (possibly since I haven't gotten round to reading it) a short story by the same writer "New in Town", Dragon Magazine #320.

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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2887 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2006 :  21:21:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan

This is a call out to all scribes, but particularly our resident expert on these matters, George Krashos.

I've been intrigued by the recent information on Impiltur provided in Champions of Ruin and the hints I've gotten from reading about Champions of Valor (I can't afford to buy myself a copy yet). The problem is, outside of them there's not a lot of published lore that I can find on Impiltur and I'm having a hard time just comprehending in the most basic terms what kind of society it is and the "national character" of the place, if you will.


You just had to go and post this while I'm writing my Impilturan campaign handout, didn't you?

Here's a quote from George I've been getting a *lot* of mileage out of:

Impiltur is the way it is because of the lingering, evil legacy of Narfell and the effect the Fiend Wars/Triad Crusade had on its development as the realm it is today. Impiltur is a paradox. Guided by the tenets of the Triad, and embracing all ‘goodly’ acts, the realm is xenophobic, suspicious of all things ‘strange’ or ‘different’ (which may indicate a fiendish taint [or] possession) and hesitant/fearful to trust or deal with ‘outlanders’. There are lots of undercurrents in the kingdom. There has been huge dynastic upheaval which has meant that Impiltur has unconsciously developed a policy of isolationism in all matters save trade. It is a realm that is threatened internally and externally (the ambitions of Thay, the threat of the hobgoblin hordes) and so has a martial/warlike attitude and posture --- at odds with its underlying belief system founded on the Triadic faiths. Impiltur is a very complex place.
---George Krashos [edited slightly by Arivia]
(Note that I pasted that straight out of a TeX document, so there may be some "odd" formatting.)

quote:
Mercantile matters are also strongly hinted at in the available lore, but clearly they don't dominate things to the extent they do in other nations like Amn and Sembia.


I actually get the strong sense from UE and Sea of Fallen Stars that they *do*.

quote:
Am I missing any good sources of Realmslore? I still don't have Champions of Valor, but otherwise my 3rd Edition collection of sourcebooks is complete. As for older editions, I have all versions of the Campaign Setting and various 2nd Edition sourcebooks too numerous to list, but which don't have any direct info.


The sources on Impiltur are:
1e/2e/3e FRCS
Dreams of the Red Wizards
Unapproachable East
City of Ravens Bluff
Pirates of the Fallen Stars
Sea of Fallen Stars
The Bloodstone Lands
Champions of Valor
Champions of Ruin
"Soargar's Legacy" from Dragon #277

I haven't spotted much outside of that---there's a tie-in to Eltab in 3e Shining South(I've checked, but I forget if it appears in the original too) and a little bit in LEoF.

quote:

Any information, even that which is not strictly cannon, would be great to get a clearer picture of this corner of the Realms.



I've an article on Ilwatch slated for the upcoming Candlekeep Compendium issue---I'll throw it on top of the priority pile for the three I've got to do.

Edited by - Arivia on 10 Feb 2006 19:05:35
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5640 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2006 :  23:28:59  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm glad that Arivia found my previous post because I'm not sure that I could have articulated that paragraph again in the same fashion - Impiltur remains a fluid construct: yes, in my head also.

In addition to what I've stated before, the make-up of Impiltur is also very much moulded by its history and geography (which is the same for about any place you can mention I suppose, real world or Realms). The coastal cities, bordered on the north by the Earthfast Mountains (a region I call the Easting Coast), are old [all being over 1000 years old] and similar to the cities of Cormyr in terms of lay-out, sophistication, amenities and features.

It's when you 'turn the corner' (i.e. move into the northern part of the kingdom - which I call the Uplands - bordered by the Great Imphras River and the Earthspurs) where things change considerably. Firstly, no major cities save for the two fortress settlements of Mal and Ithfell. Laviguer and Vordic Dun are mining communities - rough and ready and reminiscent of "gold rush" cities. What's contained in the wide open plains of the Uplands is a myriad of small villages and farms (some of which have joined together as a form of agricultural collective - known in the Realms as 'thaedar'). As a real world touchstone, I thought of the American West - a type of civilised frontier if you will. The city of Sarshel, on the coast of the Easting Reach, acts as the 'capital' for the Uplands settlements, as all trade and goods eventually end up flowing through this merchant hub.

When you cross the Great Imphras River you have another fortress settlement (Ilmwatch) and a few settlements that are considered part of Impiltur proper (such as Bay Town) and a few that probably aren't (all the towns along the Merchant's Run heading to Damara). With that latter nation's resurgence in modern times, Impiltur has effectively ceased claiming sovereignty over these settlements, restricting itself to settlements along the river and Ilmwatch (which they retain as a beacon/mustering area against the hobgoblins of the Giantspires). If the hobgoblin menace was eradicated for good (a very unlikely event, but not impossible), it's likely they would surrender (for appropriate compensation) Ilmwatch to Damara also - thereby making the river their border (and thereby improving their defences through use of this natural barrier - Ilmwatch is in quite an isolated, vulnerable position).

Hence, you have a juxtaposed society of modern, sophisticated nobles living as they have for centuries along the Easting Coast with rougher, sword-bearing, trailblazer-types living further inland. The former look down on the latter as 'leaflocks' (Realms term for country bumpkin - they've got leaves in their hair, unwashed etc.) while the latter look down on the former as effete, impractical, useless individuals who wouldn't know a hard day's work if it came up and slipped a dagger into them.

Surprisingly however, there is little or no social friction in the Realm simply because of the geographic barriers between the two camps. Merchants and itinerant traders act as the grease that makes everything run smoothly between the Uplands and the Coast, and the Lords of Imphras II are quick to act in times of civil disturbance (as well as having a well-known and regarded system of laws enforced by them and their proxies, the Heralds of Faerûn - which may get a mention in the upcoming "Power of Faerûn"). Lords' Courts (impromptu or not - they have a 'circuit' court situation) are features of Impiltur, whether you are living in Lyrabar or the isolated Five Hooves thaedar, nestled in the slopes of the Earthspur Mountains - so justice does, and is seen, to prevail. Just as Tyr would want it.

Hope this helps.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2887 Posts

Posted - 09 Feb 2006 :  23:44:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
All I can say is, I'm glad I haven't written the society section of my handout yet...as always, George, you're great and wonderful.

EDIT: Found the unaltered version of George's quote:

I could give you my thoughts re Impiltur, but space doesn't permit. Personally, I'd steer away from real-earth analogues. Impiltur is the way it is because of the lingering, evil legacy of Narfell and the effect the Fiend Wars/Triad Crusade had on its development as the realm it is today. Impiltur is a paradox. Guided by the tenets of the Triad, and embracing all 'goodly' acts, the realm is xenophobic, suspicious of all things 'strange' or 'different' (which may indicate a fiendish taint/possession) and hesitant/fearful to trust or deal with 'outlanders'. There are LOTS of undercurrents in the kingdom. Many fiend cults/cells exist, subverting nobles and commoners alike. There has been huge dynastic upheaval which has meant that Impiltur has unconsciously developed a policy of isolationism in all matters save trade. It is a realm that is threatened internally (demonic subversion, those who oppose essentially theocratic rule) and externally (the ambitions of Thay, the machinations of Soneillon, the threat of the hobgoblin hordes) and so has a martial/warlike attitude and posture - at odds with its underlying belief system founded on the Triadic faiths. Impiltur is a very complex place. Hopefully one day we'll get the vehicle to explore it in greater detail. ---George Krashos

Edited by - Arivia on 10 Feb 2006 03:26:24
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2006 :  18:26:38  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks very much for your info on Impiltur.

There's one or two of the sources in Arivia's list which I haven't picked up yet, so I may yet pursue them. Is there much of note in The Bloodstone Lands?

GH

Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005

Edited by - Gerath Hoan on 10 Feb 2006 18:27:05
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2006 :  18:33:32  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
The coastal cities, bordered on the north by the Earthfast Mountains (a region I call the Easting Coast), are old [all being over 1000 years old] and similar to the cities of Cormyr in terms of lay-out, sophistication, amenities and features.


*click* That's starting to fall into place in my mind...

quote:
As a real world touchstone, I thought of the American West - a type of civilised frontier if you will.


Aha, again another piece clicks into place!

quote:
If the hobgoblin menace was eradicated for good (a very unlikely event, but not impossible), it's likely they would surrender (for appropriate compensation) Ilmwatch to Damara also - thereby making the river their border (and thereby improving their defences through use of this natural barrier - Ilmwatch is in quite an isolated, vulnerable position).


Now that's very interesting. Are relations with Damara particularly strong?

quote:
Lords' Courts (impromptu or not - they have a 'circuit' court situation) are features of Impiltur


Can you elaborate on those Courts any further for me, George?

quote:
Hope this helps.

-- George Krashos




Indeed it does, thanks for all the info. How is it that you're not a published Realms author yourself yet?

GH

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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2887 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2006 :  19:21:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan

Thanks very much for your info on Impiltur.

There's one or two of the sources in Arivia's list which I haven't picked up yet, so I may yet pursue them. Is there much of note in The Bloodstone Lands?

GH



Yes. For example, excluding overviews such as those in UE and the FRCS, it's mostly the only resource for any of the areas beyond the coast. There are arguably crucial details in it not found anywhere else(like why Ilmwatch is where it is, or just what those lakes in central Impiltur are). It's a well done design, but unfortunately, it's organized like Silver Marches on LSD; that is, there's no section solely on Impiltur. Instead, you end up looking through numerous x of the Bloodstone Lands entries. Hence, it's a supplement I recommend you purchase in electronic format--- text search is a very needed tool to use the supplement.
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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
8411 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2006 :  20:18:02  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The first real introduction to its history came in Dreams of the Red Wizards. However, most of that history has been reprinted in the Champions books. Its a very regal country, but its history of its rulers is actually a good bit sordid.


Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 10 Feb 2006 :  20:28:12  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cool, thank you guys.

Champions of Valor has been on my "to buy" list for some time now, but I'll make it a priority, along with an electronic download of The Bloodstone Lands.

GH

Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
5640 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2006 :  05:12:13  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, in terms of law and order, "Cloak & Dagger" tells us that the Heralds of Faerûn are incorporated into the governing structure of a few realms, including Impiltur. The Lords of Imphras II number a round dozen. It would be unlikely that they would be able to handle their myriad duties (they are, after all, the de-facto rulers of the kingdom) if they had to act in the role of judges on a regular basis. As such, they have delegated these duties to the various local heralds that are located in the major settlements of Impiltur - just as in Cormyr. Only the really interesting crimes actually get before one of the Council in their role as judges.

As to the form and function of the Lord's Courts, I could bore you with minutiae (I am after all a legal practitioner), but suffice it to say that they operate on a simple system of innocent until proven guilty, witnesses must be present to give evidence (although 'speak with dead' counts in this case), lay people defending themselves are common but that legal advocates (usually local clergy of Tyr) are used also (for a fee to the church) and that punishments range from capital to a fine. I haven't sat down to work out the exact crimes and penalties for an Impilturian legal system, but it wouldn't be that hard to do and I'd use the one showcased for Waterdeep as a model. Remote areas are serviced by travelling Heralds who inform the local Royal Constable of the time when they are coming to deal with most civil matters. Pressing criminal matters will see the accused transported to a regional center or the Herald travel to the accused once word is given. There is a right of appeal to the monarch, but the Queen-Regent Sambryl has heard less than a dozen of such appeals in her time on the throne. It's hard to argue against the decision of a paladin or priest of the Triad if a Council member hears the matter and Heralds usually deal with the more mundane matters. It all seems to work okay - at least in my head!

And how is it that I'm not a published Realms author? Well, I simply don't write enough stuff that gets published to put me in the eye of the powers that be. People with a proven track record who haven't been given an opportunity yet (such as Tom Costa, whose work I admire greatly) are far ahead in the queue. Mind you, I'd love to be given the opportunity ... Now that Erik Mona is at the helm of Dragon, I'll start pitching some FR article ideas his way in the coming 12 months. If things go well, you never know ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2006 :  10:31:11  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks again, George.

Here's a chance to start using all those Triad based character ideas that I've left lying around for several years now. I like the idea of the Heralds being roving judges for the Crown, so I think I'll go back and refresh my memory with all the source material I've got on that group... plus some of Ed's informative posts on the subject from a while back.

And I don't know if this means much to you, but I'm rooting for you to get yourself a few articles in Dragon, followed by some design work for a "Demonlands" or similar sourcebook. The various bits of lore I've seen you provide on Candlekeep show that you've got the Realms down perfectly. And of course you get glowing praise from the Master himself, which always shows you've got promise!

Many thanks again,

GH

Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2887 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2006 :  12:39:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
And how is it that I'm not a published Realms author? Well, I simply don't write enough stuff that gets published to put me in the eye of the powers that be.



You've actually got a development credit in Champions of Ruin, you know...
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2887 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2006 :  17:52:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
For anyone looking for an overview of Impiltur pulling together most of the disparate sources, I've completed my campaign handout, which can be found here.
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scererar
Master of Realmslore

USA
1615 Posts

Posted - 11 Feb 2006 :  18:07:22  Show Profile Send scererar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
how about warriors and priests of the realms, it was a very useful 2E source book to me. It almost seemed to me a precursor to 3E, as far as region specific and prestige class information

"Yap,yap, little dog!" - Riven - page 326 Shadowbred, by Paul Kemp

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  05:30:45  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Arivia, your link isn't working, perhaps because the "http://" was left out. To save you the effort, I'll post the corrected link here (I can't edit in this thread).

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Alaundo
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  10:23:20  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Arivia, your link isn't working, perhaps because the "http://" was left out. To save you the effort, I'll post the corrected link here (I can't edit in this thread).



Well met

Arivia's original thread has now been corrected.

Oh we can't let thee loose throughout the whole of Candlekeep, Wooly... 'twould be mayhem!

Alaundo
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The Sage
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  10:25:18  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Arivia, your link isn't working, perhaps because the "http://" was left out. To save you the effort, I'll post the corrected link here (I can't edit in this thread).

It wasn't that. The first URL had candlekeep.com as part of the address. That's why it wasn't working.

Having said that though... I really think this compilation should also be made available here at Candlekeep.

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Alaundo
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  10:33:48  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Arivia, your link isn't working, perhaps because the "http://" was left out. To save you the effort, I'll post the corrected link here (I can't edit in this thread).

It wasn't that. The first URL had candlekeep.com as part of the address. That's why it wasn't working.

Having said that though... I really think this compilation should also be made available here at Candlekeep.




Well met

Aye, the URL appeared to be prefixed with candlekeep.com, but this was inserted by the forum software on the fly due to having "http" omitted within the actual post. (editing Arivia's post earlier revealed this). Still, 'tis now fixed.

..and I agree, Arivia should not be keeping this valuable scroll tucked away like that

Alaundo
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Arivia
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Canada
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  14:14:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Having said that though... I really think this compilation should also be made available here at Candlekeep.



quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
..and I agree, Arivia should not be keeping this valuable scroll tucked away like that



Aw, gee, thanks. Go ahead and put that one in the library, but if I can get to it, I'll get a slightly edited version to you with the canon version of the Earthwood restored, and a few other things removed to make it more useful for your average scribe.
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The Sage
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Sounds good. Let us know when it's done...

Once it is hosted on Candlekeep, I'll provide a link for it in my FR FAQ... along with Eric's comments about using the lore for Impiltur in both CoR and CoV as a "mini-setting".

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Gerath Hoan
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  15:05:14  Show Profile Send Gerath Hoan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
...along with Eric's comments about using the lore for Impiltur in both CoR and CoV as a "mini-setting".



Where abouts did Eric make those comments? I do recall seeing something about them, but I'd love a second glance at them whilst Impiltur is foremost in my mind.

GH

Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005
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Arivia
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Canada
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  15:26:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
Where abouts did Eric make those comments? I do recall seeing something about them, but I'd love a second glance at them whilst Impiltur is foremost in my mind.

GH



Here.
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  16:43:47  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo

Oh we can't let thee loose throughout the whole of Candlekeep, Wooly... 'twould be mayhem!





And what's so bad about that?

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Alaundo
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  19:12:53  Show Profile  Visit Alaundo's Homepage  Click to see Alaundo's MSN Messenger address Send Alaundo a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia

Aw, gee, thanks. Go ahead and put that one in the library, but if I can get to it, I'll get a slightly edited version to you with the canon version of the Earthwood restored, and a few other things removed to make it more useful for your average scribe.



Well met

Ahh, splendid, Arivia. Thou art too king I'll hang fire for the moment then and wait for thee to slip an updated scroll upon my desk at some point

Alaundo
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 12 Feb 2006 :  19:21:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo

Thou art too king


Too king?


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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Feb 2006 19:22:44
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