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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 23:33:15
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I was just wondering about how close to the TPK, or even any deaths, your PCs usually get when running encounters of various EL. I have noticed that even equal level challenges can vary widely within the party. Since we do a lot of roleplaying, lately we have usually only had a handful of encounters the whole session, then dealt with the mastermind or the main villain of the piece.
If they have the chance to find out about the villain, and they have a pretty good chance of resting and preparing, I usually have my villains up to 3 or even 4 above their average levels. I have notices that some villains they still tear through. When they have a good run of it though, they tend to have the following happen. The barbarian takes heavy damage, and when he still has enough to take about one or two serious hits, the druid/rogue will move in and distract said target, while the cleric patches up the barbarian, and then the druid falls back out of the fight to heal himself, while the cleric moves in with some kind of enlargement or str bonus on to finish off the fight.
We regularly have one character get to under 25% of his hit points, and another one to 50% of theirs. Occaisionally we have one fall down to 0 or lower, but we have never had a fatality yet. All of my players are fairly well experienced, and they seem to use tactics fairly well, and do a pretty good job of choosing spells and playing to each others strengths.
Since we nearly always have a "badly wounded" but rarely any negatives and no deaths, I was just wondering if anyone else finds this is how their fights go. Are my players as good at tactics as I think they are (on average they have about 12 years experience) and the least any of them have is 5 years of gaming.
Just trying to get an idea of these things. I like to see what kind of experiences other DMs have.
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2006 : 23:59:43
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My current group of players(approximately 9th level characters) each have more than 10 years of gaming experience, and some of them have been gaming with each other for 6 years or more. They work extremely well as a group, and I have to take them up 3 ecl to be a serious challenge. They have fairly good tactics, and the ability to deal out tremendous damage.
Many combats either end up a cake-walk for the players, or as close to dead as they can get without actually getting there. Lots of healing amongst the party as well as the Psychic Warrior's ability to Vigor.
I have had 3 player deaths in the last year of gaming. One death occured in such a way as to be permanent. Usually when a player falls, the rest rush to his aid, hold off the villain before he can do anything really mean to the fallen member of the team, and some one uses a curative spell/potion/item to bring that person back to their feet.
I can do 200% total party hit points and not actually kill anyone. It is both very fun and very frustrating on occasion. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 00:12:18
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Perhaps its a bit sadistic, but yes, sometimes even if two members of the party are at 50% of their hit points and one is near death, and they win, it feels like there is a temptation to think that nothing will ever kill them. I would hate to TRY to kill them, but I remember when my kids were playing in the group, over the summer, when both of them fell to negatives, there seemed to be a different, more frantic feel to the fight.
Heck, last night I was worried that I had really messed up the party. The Unholy Abomination Gauth (PrC from Dragon Magazine) managed to paralyze the cleric and the barbarian, and only the druid rogue was left. Oddly enough, he was far enough back from the action, and the cleric had used his handly new flamestrike, so that his bear form with its critical hit tore the poor evil beholder-kin to shreds.
The druid/rogue and the barbarian are good at critials, especially when they count most, and I have watched them, and its nothing "funny" going on. The only consolation is that the cleric, in his effort to find more support for the temple to Helm he is trying to build, managed to roll about four ones on his diplomacy checks with various principals in regards to his planning phase of the project. I guess it balances out somewhere. When we were trying to figure out how to explain what happened, the best explanation we could come up with is that perhaps a new nickname, "Meriden the Flatulent" might be in order for the cleric.
Its good to see a skilled tactical group of PCs manages to hold a similar line with a fellow DM though. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 02:31:25
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From my gaming experience it seems that Melee characters die FAR more often than any other class, even when well played.
Our group is currently finishing up the Shackled City Adventure path from Dungeon and the trend is obvious.
I had a Dwarven Paladin that I played until level 12. During his career he died 3 times. The final time I did not ressurect him because I used the 3 strikes and your out policy and felt it was cheesey to keep bringing him back.
Another player in our group played a crazy Scythe wielding fighter. She has died AT LEAST 3 or 4 times, I don't really keep track. It has become a running joke with her.
And lastly another fighter we had in the group was a Fighter/Lasher with a whip dagger...cheesey, I know. But seriously, he was insanely powerful, but he too died 3 times before the player decided to bring in a new character.
All were melee characters, all died often.
As for other players in the group....
Druid/Rogue has never died. This player is extremely experienced. Our whole group is experienced but this guy plays D&D 4 nights a week. He always has un-killable characters so it's not surprise.
Monk/Cleric/Sacred Fist: Most inexperienced of all our players by far and has only died once. That death was from being coup de graced while sleeping so hardly his fault.
And now I am playing a Dwarf Wizard who was the cohort of my thrice killed Paladin and from levels 12 to 17 he hasn't died once.
I have noticed this trend in all of our games, not just this adventure path. Melee tanks may have high AC's and boat loads of hitpoints but they are the constant targets. So, being repeatedly attacked by Dragons, Giants, and other hard core damage dealers is a deadly line of work. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 04:09:12
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Hmm lets see how many characters have I killed in the current campaign
NPC Cleric of Lathander killed by Dire Boar after the Fighter provoked it
Rogue PC killed by drow
Dwarf Druid killed by Trolls in Woe to Mistledale
PC Half Orc Cleric of Tempus killed by Zhentarim in Woe to Mistledale
PC Fighter killed when PC Wizard cast lightning bolt when the Fighter was standing between him and the Wizard
PC Wizard killed by Trolls
PC Thief killed by Slay Living trap in COSQ
PC Fighter on less than 10hps sets off Blade Barrier trap on Dorina coffin in COSQ
Cleric, Ranger, Divine Champion Cohort, Sorcerer all failed their fortitude saving throw when they encountered Banshee in Fane of the Drow Encounter in COSQ
Total number of Dead NPC/PCs: 12
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 04:26:46
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| Hm . . . I see a COSQ theme here . . . |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 04:41:26
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hm . . . I see a COSQ theme here . . .
COSQ is a contender for being the FRs Tomb of Horrors
Its very combat orientated. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 04:50:31
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| The player of the Druid/Rogue is terrified that I am going to run it. I had them run into a vampire drow follower of Kiransalee from Maerimydra a few adventures back, and he is absolutely certain that this is the path I am heading in. Apparently he had a character that ran through the very begining and didn't make it out again. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 05:02:28
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After there run in with the Banshee
2 Characters got wise to what the module was about and created a CLeric/Morninglord and a Paladin of Kelemvor (Using the Sub levels from CoV)
Ironically they left Sith Morcane and ran straight into Spirial of Manzine a Dungeon module thats designed to be inserted into COSQ. Its full of Mind Flayers practically no undead  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 05:10:33
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Ah . . . wonderful. Though in the long run it will pay off, at least this would confuse them.
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 12:49:15
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I finished running City of the Spider Queen about a year ago. I'll try to list the death roster...it was pretty riduclous...
Half-Elf Rogue killed in one round by Roper in Crypts.
Gnome Wizard killed by Keening Spirit in Szith Morcane.
*Human Paladin killed by Solom Nedzrak (sp?)
*Dwarven Druid killed by random barbed devil encounter.
*Human Monk/Shadowdancer killed by Vampires.
*Arcane Archer killed by Shadow Dragon
Elven Cleric, Human Ranger, Human Rogue/Wizard all killed by Mindflayer/Beholder tandem.
Human Ranger killed by Irae
NPC Wizard killed by Keening Spirit in Castle Maerimydra
*Four of these characters were all played by the same player. He is a...how can I say this....not very good at making characters.
His Monk/shadowdancer was 15th level and only had an 18 AC. The party had a couple of vampires trapped in a room so they could only threaten one of the characters who had used death ward. The Monk/Shadowdancer then tumbled through the doorway trying to get a flank bonus to everyones astonishment. The Vampires had no trouble hitting his 18 AC and drained enough levels that he lost his Darkvision from Shadowdancer. Now he was essentially blind, and stuck alone in a room with 2 or 3 vampires. Needless to say it didn't end well.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11701 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 16:45:14
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| I can't say that in my games any one particular class dies too much. However, I will say that one player hardly ever goes down. His melee characters are all about getting into and out of combat. His rogue was all about using a barbed whip with sneak attacks (he was also a fey'ri turned good by a spell, long story). The times that they do die tend to be because of their willingness to go ahead and charge into unknown situations (the fey'ri was recently trapped by following a bunch of golems through a one-way portal with just an NPC for companionship). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 18:36:47
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My group tends to have most of it's deaths among the close combat types. Even then, it's usually because of some lucky rolls on the DMs part. Just last weekend our third level dwarf fighter was killed after taking three critical hits in one round of combat with some orcs.
Of course, since I often play a wizard, and my perspective on fighters starts and ends with "meat shield", that could explain their death rate too. |
These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled,
Followed their mercenary calling
And took their wages and are dead.
Their shoulders held the sky suspended;
They stood, and earth's foundations stay;
What God abandoned, these defended,
And saved the sum of things for pay. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 18:46:11
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| Yeah, that reminds me. The closest my dauther's half-ogre monk got to dying was when she was hit with an arrow from a goblin archer that scored a critical, doing maximum damage. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 13 Jan 2006 18:46:26 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 02:50:56
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I will have to admit CotSQ is a meatgrinder of a module, especially in the original 3.0E rules.
As to death and such of PCs in my groups of late.
Close Combat Melee tends to get hurt the most, but with the exception of a monk that was doing rearguard and had to fight a Hellhound alone, none of the "brawlers" have been dropped.
Nearest any one PC has come to dying was one of the fool wizards, who saw something approach, He was in the back, and I was doing movement by rounds (so that should have been a big Hint), and he runs up and casts Burning Hands on a Curst, who immediately dropped him with one hit from a bastard sword. Also he didn't even warn the rest of the party that there was something behind them. So I gave a 50% chance that he gave out a "death shriek" which he did, and the party made their Listen checks (DC 10).
For the most part, unless someone is being stupid or being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Most people don't get hurt too bad.
I'll admit I'll takes risks with my characters, but then again, I usually play Clerics, so if it don't kill/incapcitate me, I will generally have a chance to recover.
My Clerics tend to be high BAB and high AC (provided I can get the gear I want), but not high damage. Ghost Touch weapons/armor are a priority to me. I don't care if I hit for less, I just want to hit.
They are front-line clerics, mainly using the combat buff spells.
If need be they will stand back and nuke and stuff like that.
But I prefer to be up in the face of things.
I still love the look on our DM's face in our epic campaign, when I (Drow Cleric) walked right through the Prismatic Sphere that an opposing wizard had dropped to save himself from the party.
As soon as the Prismatic Sphere was dropped, the DM said PHBs closed, if you don't know how to drop the Sphere, you'll have to guess. So while the Wizard and Druid were dickering on what spells were needed, I just walked right through. Only the Yellow Band managed to get through both my SR and Saves. |
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How close to the line do your PCs get in encounter
