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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2006 :  03:11:43  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Has the mystery of the thirteen five-sided red pyramids under Ascore ever been resolved in canon Realmslore?

Is it possible that the pyramids form part of the binding of the shadevari?

I'm asking because I'm thinking about having one of the plots of a fanatical Sharran faction of the Shades be the unleashing of the shadevari and returning Toril etc... back to the primordial darkness and chaos from which it was formed.

Best
E

Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 06 Jan 2006 :  03:37:57  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I asked Ed about this one and I got 3 letters...

NDA.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  10:32:36  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well met!

Ed and the other Great Sages love to dance around this one... so I guess it will never be answered with any "official" or canon Realmslore

I think it is meant to be one of those "Mysteries-solved-by-each-DM
-as-fits-his/her-campaign-best"-type of things. If you wish to link Ascore with the shadevari, just go ahead!

I posted in the "Realms events" (under "The origin of Thornbacks" or some title like that) how our DM handled Ascore in our high-level campaign...

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  11:04:03  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks guys. I'll try and find Asgetrion's posts.

Does anyone think the idea of linking it to the binding of thre original shadevari makes sense?

Best
E
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
30083 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  11:26:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Well met!

Ed and the other Great Sages love to dance around this one... so I guess it will never be answered with any "official" or canon Realmslore



Actually, if it's part of an NDA, it means that it's been set aside for Realmslore. That Realmslore may be years in coming, but so long as plans don't change, it will eventually come. Otherwise, there'd be no need for an NDA.

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2393 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  14:06:44  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, not really. Ed's mentioned some NDA's that date back to the early TSR days, covering areas that were to be made into computer games or whatever (and said products fell through) that have never been revoked.

However, I agree that if it's NDA'd there's a high chance of an answer coming sooner or later.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  14:40:58  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ascore was part of an old computer game named "Gateway of the Savage frontier".

Edited by - Skeptic on 17 Jan 2006 14:41:24
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2393 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  17:37:15  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting. I haven't even *heard* of that one. When did it come out? I wonder if this NDA is left over from those days, or something new. Would Ed be able to answer that without violating the NDA?

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  18:28:39  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was using the same engine as 'Curse of the Asure Bonds', 'Pools of Darkness' and the like. That engine was then released under the name "Forgotten Realms Unlimited Adventures", a module editor/player.

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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe

USA
455 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  18:48:34  Show Profile  Visit Mystery_Man's Homepage Send Mystery_Man a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Well, not really. Ed's mentioned some NDA's that date back to the early TSR days, covering areas that were to be made into computer games or whatever (and said products fell through) that have never been revoked.

However, I agree that if it's NDA'd there's a high chance of an answer coming sooner or later.



In the meantime one should feel free to put into Ascore whatever one needs to put in there. And carry a big stick to quell the snickers whenever you say "Ascore" while running a game. Although that could just be the junior high mentality of my "thirtysomething" players.

Savage Frontier mentions that Ascore was once a thriving port, now in ruins is has desert monsters, many undead, and something evil lurking there for a couple thousand years. There is also a desert dwelling blue dragon that lives nearby:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/wn/20021120a


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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4854 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  23:23:29  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think LEoF was originally planning to have some fun with those pyramids, but that tale didn't make the final cut. That NDA still applies though, so enough chat from me.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore

Canada
1273 Posts

Posted - 17 Jan 2006 :  23:30:52  Show Profile Send Skeptic a Private Message  Reply with Quote
After teasing us like this, could you try to know if the lore made for LEoF have any chance to appear somewhere else?
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
4854 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2006 :  00:41:02  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
There's always a chance. Writers like Eric Boyd always hoard bits and pieces of lore and half-written Dragon submissions to place into appropriate products if opportunities present themselves. As for the pyramids of Ascore - who knows ...

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2006 :  04:12:13  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone think the idea of linking it to the binding of the original shadevari makes sense?

(Sorry for repeating my question... but I was hoping for some input on this idea.)

Best
E
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2006 :  12:17:16  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Eremite

Does anyone think the idea of linking it to the binding of the original shadevari makes sense?

(Sorry for repeating my question... but I was hoping for some input on this idea.)



It's an interesting idea, but I'm not sure why they'd be there.

Thinking out loud ... ( Note, I don't have access to my sources a the moment, so I could be missing something important. Need to check The North, FR5 - The Savage Frontier, FR11 - Dwarves Deep, Lords of Darkness, Silver Marches, and Lost Empires of Faerun )

Ascore is a dwarven settlement, the eastern part of Delzoun.

Trade between the Netherese and the dwarves of Delzoun goes over the Narrow Sea, from Runlatha to Ascore (see Lost Empires of Faerun for info on Runlatha) and via the Low Road (mentioned in FR11 and discussed as well in DDGttU and LEoF).

Netheril falls in -339 DR.
Delzoun falls circa -100 DR.

We don't know when Ascore was abandoned, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was between -339 DR and -100 DR. I imagine the collapse of Netheril would have quickly undermined the raison d'etre of Ascore. Initially there would have been a rush of refugees, and then the city would have dwindled.

The pyramids could have appeared in one of five time periods:

pre-Ascore: If this happens, the site is fairly random and it's also unclear why the dwarves would build their city around them and not five miles away.

during-Ascore/during Netheril: If this happens, the dwarves are presumably the builders. It's a dwarven city with Netherese expatriats, not the other way around. Given that pyramids are not generally associated with the dwarves, I don't think this makes much sense.

during-Ascore/post Fall: If this happens, we might postulate that the dwarves are being overwhelmed by an influx of Netherese refugees, similar to what happened to the Eaerlanni elves of Ascalhorn. Worse, the Netherese refugees might have brought all sorts of "bad stuff" with them that keeps getting out of control. Finally, the city might be regularly attacked by the phaerimm. The dwarves might decide that the city is doomed anyway, so they start building containment facilities (i.e. the pyramids) as the population dwindles. Alternately, the pyramids might be designed to defend Delzoun's eastern frontier against the phaerimm.

post-Ascore: If this happens, the city has already been abandoned. Someone (could be anyone) decides the ruins make a nice place to build the pyramids. If this is the case, we don't have much to go on, as there is no contemporaneous culture (aside from Mulhorand) from this era that is known to build pyramids.

Absent a review of the above sources, I'd probably go with the "post-Fall of Netheril as Netheril dwindles" idea. I think I like a "contain Netherese legacies" explanation better than "defend against the phaerimm", but it could be a mixture.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Eremite
Learned Scribe

Singapore
182 Posts

Posted - 18 Jan 2006 :  15:36:26  Show Profile  Visit Eremite's Homepage Send Eremite a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Eric. That is exactly the sort of feedback I was hoping for.

I was thinking that perhaps the pyramids predated the founding of Ascore and were discovered as the dwarves went about their mining. However, I think your argument about "post-Fall of Netheril as Netheril dwindles" makes a lot more sense... which is not surprising as you really do know your stuff! ;)

Thanks again.

Best
E
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2006 :  04:20:22  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Eric, wasn't there supposed to be a "Great Evil" bound and imprisoned under the pyramids?

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2393 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2006 :  06:17:20  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yeah, they were holding back the hordes of extra races and "core" classes... Obviously the binding's gotten a little loose as of late....

(Note: I tried for ten minutes to make a tasteless warforged joke, but it's too late for me and I had to settle for the above)

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.

Edited by - Hoondatha on 19 Jan 2006 06:18:26
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1253 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2006 :  11:34:50  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Eric, wasn't there supposed to be a "Great Evil" bound and imprisoned under the pyramids?



That sounds right.

One could argue that was meant to suggest a bound demon lord or the like (or a shadevari as the original question suggested), but it could also be an army of Netherese demon-warriors, etc. That would be the "Netherese legacies" I mentioned above, being deliberately vague.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4569 Posts

Posted - 19 Jan 2006 :  12:28:32  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd

quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Eric, wasn't there supposed to be a "Great Evil" bound and imprisoned under the pyramids?



That sounds right.

One could argue that was meant to suggest a bound demon lord or the like (or a shadevari as the original question suggested), but it could also be an army of Netherese demon-warriors, etc. That would be the "Netherese legacies" I mentioned above, being deliberately vague.

--Eric



Perhaps that was the orgional home for Stasis Sphere currently in the possession of Telkoun Adranther. (See the Telkouns Tower adventure in Silver marches)

The Stasis Sphere is a Netherese relic which is believed to contain a Demon Lord...............

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 20 Jan 2006 :  10:22:32  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... a very interesting idea, Dargoth

One of my characters actually has visited Ascore, and entered its pyramids... they seemed to be some kind of tombs, with thousands of "will o' wisp"-like glittering souls bound within each. At the same time, those "soul orbs" seemed all to be the focus for some kind of an epic-imprisonment spell - binding a lost Phaerimm deity under the central pyramid.

We later found out that those pyramids predated Netheril, and were built by the Creator Races during Days of Thunder (Batrachti? Something like that ;) when they defeated the first Phaerimm.

Now, this is all non-canon, developed by our DM for that campaign (which now continues as the Age of Wor... Age of the Phaerimm-adventure path )

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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ferratus
Acolyte

9 Posts

Posted - 03 Feb 2006 :  18:39:07  Show Profile  Visit ferratus's Homepage Send ferratus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Perhaps the "great evil" bound beneath the pyramids is the demonic progenitor of the lamia in the city above. From Ascore the lamia went through numerous Netherese portals to other lands.
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1564 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2006 :  20:37:57  Show Profile  Visit Asgetrion's Homepage Send Asgetrion a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hmmm... This is only my humble opinion, but to me "A Primordial Great Evil" brings to mind some insubstantial demon-like horror or "presence" - such as the Demon Lord featured in the Dungeon-magazine trilogy set in Istivin, Eshowdow (or however it is spelled ;) from the Jungles of Chult, or the "Black Wind" in the 'Wheel of Time'-series.

Wouldn't it be fun, if this being was imprisoned/bound into an artifact (in the way that the Dragonking and Savras were) and poor, hapless PCs would carry it from Ascore? Maybe that would be how the 'Istivin' modules could be adapted to the Realms?

"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm
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Arivia
Great Reader

Canada
2877 Posts

Posted - 06 Feb 2006 :  20:47:58  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion

Hmmm... This is only my humble opinion, but to me "A Primordial Great Evil" brings to mind some insubstantial demon-like horror or "presence" - such as the Demon Lord featured in the Dungeon-magazine trilogy set in Istivin, Eshowdow (or however it is spelled ;) from the Jungles of Chult, or the "Black Wind" in the 'Wheel of Time'-series.

Wouldn't it be fun, if this being was imprisoned/bound into an artifact (in the way that the Dragonking and Savras were) and poor, hapless PCs would carry it from Ascore? Maybe that would be how the 'Istivin' modules could be adapted to the Realms?



Perhaps. I might end up using this myself soon(one of my groups is going to Anauroch by way of a gate compass[Planar Handbook], adjusted slightly to get them through a gate from an Anaurian Crypt to the Dungeon of Swords, and then out to the Temple of Jergal, so I'll have to see where they go from there. If I do, I'll likely use it as a reason to play around with some of the deities/powers from Lords of Madness(thanks for introducing the aboleth powers to the Realms, Eric!), as it's the only thing in my shelf of books to use next that fits the idea fairly well.
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StarBog
Learned Scribe

United Kingdom
152 Posts

Posted - 13 Aug 2008 :  23:50:37  Show Profile  Visit StarBog's Homepage Send StarBog a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Bleh, as much as I hate thread necromancy at the best of times, parsimony dictates that I bring up this subject again in this thread rather than start a new one. Has there been anything new in the intervening years revealed about Ascore and the Pyramids?

I set a major portion of a recent campaign around the Pyramids (to cut a long story short, they turned out to be an "anchor point" of the Weave and were guarded by a cabal of Netherese Liches (formerly buddies of Karsus who had been sentenced by Mystra to atone for their hubris by sacrificing their unlife in service to the Weave), and I couldn't find much other than what was mentioned in this thread and also a brief mention in the Fall of Netheril boxed set (former dwarven port, blah, blah etc).
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore

USA
1537 Posts

Posted - 19 Aug 2008 :  08:20:52  Show Profile  Visit Jamallo Kreen's Homepage Send Jamallo Kreen a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You clearly know more than most of us!





I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.


Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.

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