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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 15:40:22
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My player's finnaly got their hands on a "eye of Druuthbane" and they are planning to attack some members of the Unseen.
They suspect Lord Huld Belanbratha(sp?) to be one of them.. (Look at Waterdeep web enhancement for details).
He's in fact a Greater one (found in MoF), and I don't know which abilities it gained by consuming the enchanter.
Only(!) his spells/day ?
If it was a monk, would it gains all class features?
No divine spells over second level.. why 2nd, a 2e left over ?
As I understand it, he doesn't get the skills of the consumed victim, a good way to find the truth (a rogue that is no more able to open a simple lock for example).
Thanks for help with this creature of nightmare..
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 17:20:51
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I don't have my books handy to check, but as I recall, a greater doppelganger gains all abilities of the victim, save for divinely-granted ones. That includes class features.
The 2nd level spells thing... I don't think it was ever put in print, but there seems to be kind of an automatic reload on 1st and 2nd level cleric spells. It's not that such spells are reloaded automatically, it's that the divine caster can draw spells of this power from their deity without having the deity pay attention to them... Anything over that, though, and the deity has to have a bit more contact with the caster.
I'm basing this concept off of the old Spelljammer rules for gaining spells outside of your home sphere. In those rules, any cleric could regain 1st and 2nd level spells, anywhere. To get higher level spells, either their deity had to be worshipped in that sphere, or they had to use a specific spell to "call home" to their deity.
I think this is a similar case. In both scenarios, the cleric (either the clerical victim or the spelljamming cleric) contains just enough of their deity's touch to be able to draw those lower spells from them. Drawing more powerful spells requires a greater connection to the deity. The deity has to be able to see into the follower more. In the spelljammer's case, he just needs to open up the connection a bit more for the deity to be able to see him -- like strengthening a cell phone signal. In the greater doppelganger's case, opening up to the deity further would make the deity notice just what had happened to the follower, and refuse to grant spells. So the greater doppelganger avoids this by simply taking the lower spells. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Dec 2005 17:27:02 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 17:26:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't have my books handy to check, but as I recall, a greater doppelganger gains all abilities of the victim, save for divinely-granted ones. That includes class features.
Are Bonus feat (fighter, wizard) class features ?
For Wiz/Sor does the familiar stay ? Can he claim a new one ?
Such kind of ability (consume identity) is really more a pain in 3/3.5E than it was in 2E. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 05 Dec 2005 17:28:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 17:31:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't have my books handy to check, but as I recall, a greater doppelganger gains all abilities of the victim, save for divinely-granted ones. That includes class features.
Are Bonus feat (fighter, wizard) class features ?
For Wiz/Sor does the familiar stay ? Can he claim a new one ?
Such kind of ability (consume identity) is really more a pain in 3/3.5E than it was in 2E.
Again, going from memory... I'd say that all feats were absorbed, too.
The familiar wouldn't stay, I would think. If the master is slain, the familiar is free to go. And even though the master's form can be assumed, perhaps fooling a familiar, the bond would have been shattered upon the wizard's death.
I'd say that a wizard identity could claim a new familiar, but would only gain the benefits from it while in that identity.
Turning, laying on of hands, things like that are divinely-granted. I'd not allow those. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Dec 2005 17:32:21 |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 19:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't have my books handy to check, but as I recall, a greater doppelganger gains all abilities of the victim, save for divinely-granted ones. That includes class features.
Are Bonus feat (fighter, wizard) class features ?
For Wiz/Sor does the familiar stay ? Can he claim a new one ?
Such kind of ability (consume identity) is really more a pain in 3/3.5E than it was in 2E.
No, feats are not abilities unless they're virtual feats.
No, and yes. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36782 Posts |
Posted - 05 Dec 2005 : 23:43:13
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Okay... Page 36 of Monsters of Faerūn:
quote:
After consuming a victim's identity, the greater doppelganger can assume the victim's form with 100% accuracy and possess the victim's memories, abilities, and alignment. The only exceptions are cleric spells of 2nd level or greater, a paladin's special abilities, and other powers that are granted by the deities.
Notate that it says "only exceptions" -- so I'd allow the use of a victim's feats.
Now, it goes on to say that in the greater doppelganger's base form, it can access the basic memories of all of its victims, but not deeper ones. I'd read that to say that the greater doppelganger can gather basic data, but has to assume the victim's form to have the full memories. For a real-world analogy, the greater doppelganger would be able to recall his victim's address, but not the security code for the alarm system -- for that, he'd had to assume the victim's form.
I'd also read this as providing the greater doppelganger use of any of the victim's skills, but at only one rank. For feats, I'd only allow the greater doppelganger to use feats that are based on intelligence -- they won't necessarily have the common sense to use the wisdom-based ones, the presence for charisma-based ones, and the physical training necessary for feats based on dexterity, strength, and/or wisdom. Again, this applies only while the greater doppelganger is in his own form -- when he assumes the identity of the victim, then he can use the victim's full abilities, with the exceptions quoted above.
The description doesn't say it, but I'd say that a greater doppelganger wearing someone's identity would have very little access to the memories/abilities of his other victims. It is reasonable to assume that the effort and process of assuming a stolen identity would make the other identities inaccessible. A greater doppelganger may be able to think, "Hey, I have this other identity that could do that!" or "I think this other identity knows this guy..." but not much beyond that.
At least, that's my read on all this.  |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 01:25:05
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Thanks for your help Wooly.
Talking about monster that can assume human form, I noticed that many fiends (demons, devils, deamons, etc.) lost (between 2E/3E) their ability to appear as human (illusion or polymorph).
I always liked the idea to put fiends in play in this way..
Anyone have the same feeling ? |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2005 : 04:50:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Thanks for your help Wooly.
Talking about monster that can assume human form, I noticed that many fiends (demons, devils, deamons, etc.) lost (between 2E/3E) their ability to appear as human (illusion or polymorph).
I always liked the idea to put fiends in play in this way..
Anyone have the same feeling ?
Personally I preferred it when the demons/devils decided to show up all dressed in white and glowing with a bright light and gave poor PC's quests.
But I agree, it makes it harder for GM's to mess with PC's with demons. you end up having to have collaborators in stead of the actual demon. But then there is the side benifit that the Paladin can't point at the prince of the realm and denounce him as a demon if he is just a collaborator....hmmm....gears turning in my head... |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Greater doppleganger
