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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5692 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 19:56:30
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We get to see a bit more of Jak and his personality again here. I like that. Jake is a really moderating influence in the stories, and I have always liked how he really is a typical halfling that stands out becuase he is a typical halfing in a story that is much darker than halflings usually participate in.
I'm not sure how to peg Megadon. I like him as a character, but I am begining to wonder what his angle is. He seems to be working with the gorup because he trusts them and considers them friends, but he started out as an acquantance of Riven, and seemed truly taken aback by finding otu that Jak used to be a Harper. I think its interesting to see his fit of anger against Sephris, though I think this is more attributable to someone knowing his secret without him sharing it, and divulgin it rather bluntly, than becuase he has more of a temper than he has displayed in the past.
I really liked Jak and Cale's conversation about heroes. First off, the secne was good simply becuase it did something I wish more Realms authors would do, and that is acknowlage that adventuring companies and adventurers are a part of the social structure of the Realms. I would have to agree with Jak about heroes being the ones that want to change the world for the better, and put themselves out doing it, weather they succeed or not, weather their deeds get noticed or not. I understand Cale's comments as well. You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Speaking of Jak, heroes, and Harpers, and since Jak is from Mistledale, did he ever run into Elminster or Storm. Not in the, "hey, I went to Elminster's for luch today and he said . . . " kind of way, but just in passing. I had originally thought that Jak became a Harper in the Dales, but I am wondering now if he didn't become a Harper later on in his travels, after he had left the Dales.
I felt badly for Sephris. The first thing that I thought of when I read about him showing up was that he couldn't be raised if he didn't want to come back, but I understand that as a Chosen he might feel obligated to come back, especially if he felt that he had some knowlage that needed to be imparted. I am glad to see an author actually mention a character being rasied and how it impacts them and others rather than ignore that it shoudl be a possible occurrance in a world like the Realms. WHile I can see many wanting to make sure their children or their spouse, or even their friends are alright if called back, it seems like many would just want to go to their final reward and rest. |
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CreepyBastard
Acolyte
14 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 01:33:27
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For the most part I am not a big fan of 'good' guys in novels. They all seem to be one link of a chain of paper dolls. No variety. Jak is different... or maybe it is PSK's style of writing. The character is consistantly written. While he does partake in things that one would argue to be against his 'alignment', it never actually feels like he is.
Jak is Cale's anchor and the dynamics between Jak, Cale and Riven is done very well. I don't really care much for Magadon. KnightErrantJr., I get the same feeling. Is there more to him? His motives are somewhat unknown. Although, the fact that he is Mephistopheles son is really interesting. That and he is the opposite of his father makes for a unique character. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 13:58:40
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I felt badly for Sephris. The first thing that I thought of when I read about him showing up was that he couldn't be raised if he didn't want to come back, but I understand that as a Chosen he might feel obligated to come back, especially if he felt that he had some knowlage that needed to be imparted. I am glad to see an author actually mention a character being rasied and how it impacts them and others rather than ignore that it shoudl be a possible occurrance in a world like the Realms. WHile I can see many wanting to make sure their children or their spouse, or even their friends are alright if called back, it seems like many would just want to go to their final reward and rest.
KnightErrant,
I'm glad the Sephris scene worked for you. One of the things I like to emphasize with characters like Sephris is that their "gift" comes at a high price. I think this is consistent with Ed's concept of the Chosen -- duty (and sometimes a bit of insanity or unhappiness) are the price of power granted by the gods. A Chosen's life is no longer his or her own. It is true, however, that Sephris's price is a bit steeper than most. Cale's too, I'd argue.
On a sidenote, this is one of the interesting challenges that comes with writing game fiction. Sometimes gamers see things like Chosen/Shades/half-fiends and see only all the added power that the status brings. They sometimes think -- Man, I'd love my character to be a shade/Chosen/half-fiend/whatever. And in the context of a game, that makes sense.
But if you imagine how it would be to live life as one of those characters, the choice looks less obvious. Sephris has little in common with any other human being; he is doomed to know the future, to see constant significance in everything he sees and does; Cale is not even human anymore, though he still has all the yearnings that go along with being human; Elminster and the Sisters are heavily burdened with the duties that come from serving Mystra.
I'm not sure I'd make those tradeoffs. |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 07 Nov 2005 20:56:00 |
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Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 20:33:16
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Chapter 4
For me, this chapter was amazing and meant so much to me. The picture of Selgaunt was depicted perfectly. The sights, the sounds, the smells... they all were described so well that you could feel yourself there. It took me back to the time when I read the Sembia books and yet again I felt at home  I was thinking whilst reading this part that it would be nice if Cale saw one of the Uskevren family walking around the streets (and it was eerie when Paul wrote this very same thought from Cale's point of view - am i on the same wavelength  ).
Another part I liked about this chapter was where Cale is observing Jak and Mags and noticing their downtrodden appearance and wariness (sp?) and thought about what they had all been through in such a short space of time. This really brings the situation down to earth. I think a lot of authors tend to forget that their characters will still act and feel like real people, they will get tired and worn out - physically and mentally - and Paul really brought this across here.
Paul i'm so glad that the dogs came into play again. The whole dogs thing with Riven is such a subtle and simple point but it makes all the difference to his character. The dog scene in Dawn of Night was amazing, and his care which came through in Twilight Falling equally so. I was so happy when you mentioned Riven going off to see his dogs 
Dolgan makes me laugh. I laughed out loud with Azriim saying to Dolgan that "one of us here is stupid.." LOL!
A nice touch how Azriim wanted to see the ship, for the purpose of memorizing a location on which to teleport later on. Simple detail - very effective.
Oh my god, Sephris! I'm shocked. What? Where? how? I can go on forever here, but i must get onto chapter 5 now  |
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox? |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 20:56:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Celebrant Moonflower
Chapter 4
It took me back to the time when I read the Sembia books and yet again I felt at home
I feel the same way writing it. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 01:39:34
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| Yes, I rather liked Azriim and Dolgan's moments there. Especially Azriim's wondering at the fact that they are from the same brood. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:26:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I really liked Jak and Cale's conversation about heroes. First off, the secne was good simply becuase it did something I wish more Realms authors would do, and that is acknowlage that adventuring companies and adventurers are a part of the social structure of the Realms. I would have to agree with Jak about heroes being the ones that want to change the world for the better, and put themselves out doing it, weather they succeed or not, weather their deeds get noticed or not. I understand Cale's comments as well. You can do the right thing for the wrong reasons.
Ya know, this scene really struck with me also. I liked how Cale called adventurers "ichy's" as though it's a common name for reckless types who are seen as probably just glory-seekers and tomb-robbers and looked down on by the populace. The conversion really opened up this way of life and how it's seen.
Paul, that old game sava cropped up again What exactly IS sava? How is it played? And if you're in the mood for explanations, what is the game of "scales and blades"?  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:32:12
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Whoah...the Murky Depths! Now THAT is the kind of tavern i'm talking about! I never expected an establishment like this in Selgaunt, I thought only the likes of Waterdeep went to this extravagance. What a stunning place. Very well described too, I really got the feeling and visuals from this.
This whole Selgaunt scene is very atmospheric...it's making me anxious to read the Sembia series all over again
I thought it was a nice tough when Cale and Jak were out questioning and pressing for information and heard a tavern rumor about "dragon attacks in the north", which they passed off as nonsense  A nice subtle reference to the Rage. Excellent!
A very creepy scene when Cale et al appeared on the ship, all quiet and dark, stalking about stealthily. I could almost hear just my heart thumping whilst I was reading. Very eerie how Riven startled awake, followed by Azriim.
Can't wait to read more! I'm hooked! |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:35:37
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
On a sidenote, this is one of the interesting challenges that comes with writing game fiction. Sometimes gamers see things like Chosen/Shades/half-fiends and see only all the added power that the status brings. They sometimes think -- Man, I'd love my character to be a shade/Chosen/half-fiend/whatever. And in the context of a game, that makes sense.
But if you imagine how it would be to live life as one of those characters, the choice looks less obvious.
And I think this really comes over in your writing, Paul. As i've said on a couple of occassions now, this book really comes down to earth in a way, by showing the "normal" life and how the characters must actually feel. The scene with Cale looking at Jak and Mags and seeing how worn out they are, etc. There are many places like this and I think it makes all the difference with that extra bit of feeling and human element given to the characters. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:50:17
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Chapter 6
More Selgaunt in this chapter. Oh how i wish they could have spent more time there. I would have been quite happy to read chapter after chapter of Cale and Jak wandering the streets of the town. I had to have a quick look at the Sembia books i have for a trip down nostalgia lane (The Sembia series actually brought me back into reading Forgotten Realms books again, after a few years away from the scene).
I also liked the Murky Depths bar. Very unique, i wish i could go for a drink there
Chapter 7
Here is Cale again, back to his old self when he was an assassin. The killing of the boy in the crows nest had me on the edge of my seat. I didn't think he would do it, but he thought it over and slit his throat. That's the Cale I know
This chapter really did something for me, from start to finish. I found it very creepy, like Lord Rad mentioned, and the stealth element made it very tense. In particular, the part where Azriim could see Cale but thought he was undetected, and Cale could see Azriim, but also thought he was hidden. This was very well played out.
But Magadon! Nooooooo. Oh my god, Riven appears and kills Magadon, I had to put the book down. WOW. Mr Kemp, you sure know how to shock.
On a lighter note, i laughed when Azriim was negotiating with the captain of the Coffer, who wanted the remaining payment. Azriim smiled and thought "Sembians remain Sembians even when enspelled". LOL
..and then the Magadon death was set-up...by Riven?!
Jak was right...Riven does have more angles than a prism
I must say that I am enjoying this book more than any other i have read this year. It's just wonderful. |
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox? |
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Celebrant Moonflower
Acolyte
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:52:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yes, I rather liked Azriim and Dolgan's moments there. Especially Azriim's wondering at the fact that they are from the same brood.
It's very different how the bad guys of the book, the slaadi, can be such evil and a threat, but on the other hand, be so comical. Sometimes whilst reading, I forget to take them seriously.
...and then Paul pulls something out of the hat and takes me completely off guard |
When has truth been utterly devoid of paradox? |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 03:15:36
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I can't wait to find out which side Riven is going to come out on. He is playing both sides but for what good? For Mask? Does he want to get close to the Sojournor to find out what he is up to and take it for himself? I just can't read Riven he is too unpredictable. Kemp does a great job of making Riven seem like he betryed one side and then he will coem back and help the other side, I am assuming Mask is guiding him.
I also was wonder what Megadon is doing in this group. Is it because the slaadi killed his companion earlier or is he up to something or does he consider Cale and Jak friends? I also liked the scene with Sephris because it gave Megadon some more flavor.
The scene on the ship was wonderful. I really liked how both sides thought they were undetected but they both were aware of the other party on the deck. I had the feeling Riven was going to end up creeping on Megadon up in the nest, but I had no idea that he was going to kill him. I was glad to find out it was a ploy, because that means Riven might still be on Cale and Jak's side.
The scene that really caught my attention was the scene with Cale and Jak talking about heros. It points out Jak's good nature and I think it shows Cale's transition back into the assasin as well as his transition from human to shade. He has a more pessimistic attitude and a darker out look than he had in Shadows Witness and the earlier Cale novels. The y mention Storm and El as great heros of the realms as they are well known but who is Tchazzar they mention as a hero of the realms? I wrote that down in order to ask it because that is the first time I have came across the name
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Malarick
Seeker
United Kingdom
86 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 11:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
What exactly IS sava? How is it played? And if you're in the mood for explanations, what is the game of "scales and blades"?
Paul seems to have a love of games. I always thought of sava as Chess.
There was also a small reference to a dice game early on in the book, which I thought would be based on craps, as it mentioned 'asp eyes' - a nice play on 'snake eyes' (rolling ones on two dice).
No theories so far on 'Scales and Blades'. |
Malarick
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 13:46:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Malarick
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
What exactly IS sava? How is it played? And if you're in the mood for explanations, what is the game of "scales and blades"?
Paul seems to have a love of games. I always thought of sava as Chess.
There was also a small reference to a dice game early on in the book, which I thought would be based on craps, as it mentioned 'asp eyes' - a nice play on 'snake eyes' (rolling ones on two dice).
No theories so far on 'Scales and Blades'.
Sava is a chess-like game. Scales and Blades a game I made up -- I think of it as a card game, not unlike a simplified version of bridge. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 14:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Beezy
The y mention Storm and El as great heros of the realms as they are well known but who is Tchazzar they mention as a hero of the realms? I wrote that down in order to ask it because that is the first time I have came across the name
Tchazzar is a near legendary one-time ruler of Chessenta. I believe he is called the "Dragon King," and, unless my memory is failing me here (which is possible), that is because he is thought to have had dragon blood in his veins, or even to have been a dragon. I also believe he ascended to godhood.
Given all that, it seemed reasonable to me that Cale and Jak would have heard of Tchazzar.
Paul |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 09 Nov 2005 19:35:52 |
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Ashork
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 19:49:26
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| I believe, Tchazzar was a red dragon who pretended to be a Human Fighter. He became the Ruler of Chessenta. He also wanted to become a god but in the end was killed by Tiamat, who used Tchazzar (Along with 2 other dragons) as a means to return to the realms. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 21:03:11
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| Thanks for the clearing that up. I had never heard of the name before, is there a reference to him in any FR novels or is it somehting from source books? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 23:49:10
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I can't remember that Tchazzar has been in any novels, but I do think its interesting that Tchazzar gets brought up. He was a red that wanted to be seen as a great hero, so he took human form and projected himself as a valorous human warrior, then disappeared mysteriously, hoping a cult would spring up around him.
Somehow I thinks its ironic that Jak lists him as a hero, when he would really make Cale's point about not knowing what a given hero was really like and weather they deserve the title or not. I like that. |
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Ashork
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 12:52:22
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Beezy. Here is a Link to the WOtC web site with an article all about Tchazzar and what happen to him , Article tilted "The Alabaster Staff: A History of Unther"
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/unther
enjoy
ashork
Edit: Sorry for getting off the main topic
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Edited by - Ashork on 10 Nov 2005 12:53:34 |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 14:43:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Whoah...the Murky Depths! Now THAT is the kind of tavern i'm talking about! I never expected an establishment like this in Selgaunt, I thought only the likes of Waterdeep went to this extravagance. What a stunning place. Very well described too, I really got the feeling and visuals from this.
Rad,
I'm pleased the Murky Depths took your fancy. I was quite pleased with this little joint. Your observation about extravagance is right on, but if any city in the heartlands can support such a place, it is Selgaunt. Even if Selgaunt isn't the wealthiest city in the Heartlands (and it very well might be), its citizens sure want it to be perceived as such.
Paul |
Edited by - PaulSKemp on 10 Nov 2005 14:44:53 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 18:56:04
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I messed my self up a little by reading the posts, as I am in the middle of chapter 7. oh well I will make sure next time that I read through all of the chapters allocated for each section first before I read the posts.
I am in agreement with the other posters, in that we get to see more of Jak's personality, he almost seems out of place alignment wise with the rest of the group, in my opinion. It makes the book seem more life like though, and is nice to see that these characters are there to accomplish the mission and not set on taking everyone out and sorting through things later. I also enjoyed the section where Jak and Cale were talking about heroes and adventuring groups.
something not talked about yet, that I saw, was that Riven is still struggling with his inner self. in the end of chapter 6 he wonders, for the hundreth time, if he was doing the right thing. I am looking forward to see how this character will play out by the end of the book.
Paul I have a couple of questions. Sephris calls Cale the first of five, does this refer to 5 of masks chosen or the main characters in the book? maybe I just need to keep reading to figure it out, but I was interested. Also, are there any write up's on Weaveshear? and on that note, any info on the characters in game terms, out side of the book? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 19:50:51
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I think the characters have gotten together from circumstance and situation, not becuase the "adventuring party" fits, so the group feels a bit more organic to me. Heck, Riven and Jak have been at each other's throats several times earlier in the series, and just when they start to warm up to each other, Jak thinks that Riven has turned on them.
I think that Riven is struggling with his ambition more than with "himself." In other words, he knows that he is willing to do pretty much anything for Mask, he knows that he doesn't value human life much, except int the extreem cases where someone has spent a lot of time with him. He doesn't really beleive in right and wrong but in making sure that you have a purpose, which he has found with Mask. I think the real struggle is that he has always looked out for himself, and right now, Mask wants him to be number two. Its hard for him to keep looking out for himself and reconcile himself to the fact that Mask isn't looking for him to bump off Cale to prove he is number one . . . at least not at the moment. Or that's how I read it.
In the earlier books, several of the Chosen of Mask are named, and Cale is the First of the Five Chosen, just as Riven is the Second.
Cale's stats, from before this storyline starts, are on this very site, but again, since its from before this trilogy begins, Weaveshear is not detailed within.
Paul might update his stats at some time, but I think there may be things about Weaveshear he doesn't want to give away in a stat block . . . |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 10 Dec 2005 : 19:57:19
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| KEjr, once again thanks for responding, I agree. sometimes during a post it is difficult to get all of ones thoughts out, if I did, it would be it's own book ( and not as good as Mr. Kemp's) . This web site is fun and I apprieciate your thoughts. Now I am off to look for those other chosen of Mask |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 11 Dec 2005 : 14:30:53
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Scererar,
KEJr has the right of it. According to Sephris, Cale is the First of Mask's Five Chosen. At one point in the past, a fellow by the name of Kesson Rel was Mask's First. See "Soulbound" in the "Realms of Dragons" anthology for a bit on Kesson. For a reason so far left unexplained, Kesson is no longer Mask's First, nor even his Second.
As for Jak, you're exactly right. His moral compass is decidedly different from those of Cale and Riven.
On Riven: You will fefinitely get some resolution on his inner turmoil before the end of the book. I'm just not going to tell you how it gets resolved.
Paul |
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Jhoebryn
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2006 : 16:18:01
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Cale and Jak's discussion of heroes really opens up these two characters for all to see. We can see what drives them and how they look upon the things they do. Jak has slowly transformed throughout this trilogy (I look forward to more stories with the "little man"...)
The scene with Riven and the dogs was well done. To quote a famous movie - "there is still good in him...".
The scene with Sephris was also quite well done. I like Magadon's character. I do like the fact that he got upset when he was confronted with his past by Sephris. He is very guarded about it, and all of a sudden it is thrown at him by the least likely of sources. It shows that these characters are truly human (you can touch on a nerve and set them off).
Azriim and Dolgan are great as they negotiate for passage. As stated above, you have given us a couple of "baddies" that can be enjoyable to read about. Many times in novels like this, you find your favorites and you almost rush to those pages. Here I have enjoyed Cale and Co. and I still enjoy the slaadi passages. They have been great throughout the trilogy.
We are building to a boil here - lots of combustible pieces thrown into a very hot kettle... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 05:41:28
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I'm beginning to like Jak...And that's really something. I didn't care about him at all in Dawn of Night. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3286 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 06:12:55
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Little man is the bestest! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2011 : 06:47:25
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It's too late to wish for it, but still...I might have felt better if 'twas Mags who got killed instead of Jak.
Haven't yet finished the book, though. The chapters without or with little Vhostym scenes don't grab me that much. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Midnight's Mask: Chapters 4 - 7
