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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1176 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  16:15:22  Show Profile  Visit Kaladorm's Homepage Send Kaladorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
My adventurers stay out of this one :P

In a campaign I'm running at the moment, we have a cleric/paladin of Lathander who recently died whilst rescuing the Blood of Lathander artifact.

To make things a little more interesting for his resurrection in service to Lathander, I've decided to give him a long term obligation/quest.

With Lathander being god of rebirth etc etc I came up with the idea that the paladin would have to travel to witness the birth of a celestial (or half celestial), and look after the child/being throughout the adventures. The being if possible would be like a familiar for the paladin (not powerful enough to engage in combat etc but enough that it can be looked after etc.)

I haven't been able to find much info about this so far so I'd like some help with how a celestial would be born, and how they would develop.

Many Thanks

Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  16:40:37  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Since celestial's are one of the many planar beings made from dead souls, it would be birthed from a petitioner...... I don't recall any text, from Planescape or anywhere, that describes how a celestial is birthed. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  16:50:22  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would imagine being present while the soul of a petitioner is turned into a new celestial would be the begining, on Lathander's home plane. Depending on what kind of celestial has been created, you might use the "monster class" rules from Savage Species to simulate the less powerful, just created celestial that cleric/paladin has to watch over.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
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Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  17:19:08  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I would imagine that celestials come into existence fully formed... The deity (or a powerful underling) selects a petitioner, and either waves his hand or conducts some ritual, and at the end of it the petitioner is a fully grown and ready for action celestial.

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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore

USA
1279 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  21:13:10  Show Profile  Visit Mournblade's Homepage  Send Mournblade an AOL message  Click to see Mournblade's MSN Messenger address  Send Mournblade a Yahoo! Message Send Mournblade a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I would imagine that celestials come into existence fully formed... The deity (or a powerful underling) selects a petitioner, and either waves his hand or conducts some ritual, and at the end of it the petitioner is a fully grown and ready for action celestial.



It makes sense it would happen this way. But the main rules to run D&D are the core books. If I were you I would go with this adventure anyway. A rule of how a celestial is born is rather arbitrary, so just go ahead and make the adventure. I am all for using the written material when it makes my job easier, but remember though the designers stuff is published, it is still an interpretation relying on those core rules.

I would go with this. It is a REALLY good idea.


A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to...
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore

United Kingdom
1176 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  23:04:34  Show Profile  Visit Kaladorm's Homepage Send Kaladorm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If the celestial is fully formed there is no need for my Paladin to act as his 'protector' :)

I had in mind the celestial being very important to Lathander at a later date (kind of a chosen one type of thing) but of course it needs to be protected asnd nurtured through its early stages.

I can't say much more about what I have planned since all my players read this forum lol
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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7915 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2005 :  23:47:42  Show Profile Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it might be formed and all that but it could be protected because it wouldn't have much memories and the like until it starts to learn again.....

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
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USA
31496 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  00:28:03  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I, personally, just can't buy the idea of a celestial being born... So here's an alternative: this celestial has been captured by powerful baddies (or baddie, singular) who has somehow been siphoning off the celestial's life energy. So the PCs have to rescue the celestial, who is now considerably weakened. And mayhaps because the celestial failed in something important, Lathander won't restore him to power (or the celestial refuses, to atone for the failure).

So you still get a weak celestial who will increase in power as time goes by. You also get a couple other hooks to run with -- the initial rescue, and the celestial's failed duty...

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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore

USA
1291 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  02:14:47  Show Profile  Visit Gray Richardson's Homepage Send Gray Richardson a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aren't Eladrins and Guardinals born? I was under the impression that the Eladrins and Guardinals are celestials who increase their numbers through procreation.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  02:19:33  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje

Since celestial's are one of the many planar beings made from dead souls, it would be birthed from a petitioner...... I don't recall any text, from Planescape or anywhere, that describes how a celestial is birthed. :)

Indeed, and I agree.

However, Monte Cook generated a number of rather intriguing "celestial origin" theories in some of his books for the AU setting. I mentioned them here because they build on the traditional PS elements, which I like...

Kaladorm, send me a PM and I'll provide you with some details.

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
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Australia
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Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  02:22:00  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Aren't Eladrins and Guardinals born? I was under the impression that the Eladrins and Guardinals are celestials who increase their numbers through procreation.

The races of "planeborne" (defined, roughly, as rilmani, archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaadi, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, and modrons, though other races like gehreleths, quesar, and formians may be added or taken away) are creatures formed from either petitioners or the energy of their home planes. They have advancing ranks of increasing potency or purity as they come to personify the ethos of their alignment planes more and more. They're not offshoots of mortal or magical races - or if they are, they've become something entirely different, and they should have more than one way of replicating themselves. It's conceivable that a group of elves or proto-elves could turn themselves into planeborne by ritually purging the law and evil from their souls, and finally allowing their flesh to become entirely consumed by the magic so that they could be reborn as celestial creatures. However, *any* chaotic-good creature - humans, titans, insane beholders - should be able to do the same thing.

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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1071 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  09:43:59  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage

quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson

Aren't Eladrins and Guardinals born? I was under the impression that the Eladrins and Guardinals are celestials who increase their numbers through procreation.

The races of "planeborne" (defined, roughly, as rilmani, archons, guardinals, eladrins, slaadi, tanar'ri, yugoloths, baatezu, and modrons, though other races like gehreleths, quesar, and formians may be added or taken away) are creatures formed from either petitioners or the energy of their home planes. They have advancing ranks of increasing potency or purity as they come to personify the ethos of their alignment planes more and more. They're not offshoots of mortal or magical races - or if they are, they've become something entirely different, and they should have more than one way of replicating themselves. It's conceivable that a group of elves or proto-elves could turn themselves into planeborne by ritually purging the law and evil from their souls, and finally allowing their flesh to become entirely consumed by the magic so that they could be reborn as celestial creatures. However, *any* chaotic-good creature - humans, titans, insane beholders - should be able to do the same thing.


Slaadi and Formians reproduce through procreation, you know.

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The Sage
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Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  13:49:22  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Err... no. The creation of new slaadi still involves the raw chaos-stuff of Limbo (the energy of their home planes that I mentioned previously).

As for the formians, except the Queen, formians are all completely sterile females (like baatezu females, but also like lower-caste ants).

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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Aug 2005 13:51:27
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore

USA
1695 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  13:53:45  Show Profile  Visit warlockco's Homepage Send warlockco a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Slaadi and Formians reproduce through procreation, you know.



And here I thought Slaadi, were created through infestation of unwilling hosts or the work of the Spawning Stone (not normal procreation).

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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  14:23:14  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco

quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Slaadi and Formians reproduce through procreation, you know.



And here I thought Slaadi, were created through infestation of unwilling hosts or the work of the Spawning Stone (not normal procreation).

Yes... the raw chaos-stuff and the Spawning Stone are integral to the creation of more slaadi -- well, most of them. Take the red slaadi for an example of different "creation" methods. The red slaadi inject egg-pellets into victims which will then gestate for a period before growing into baby blue slaad and emerging from the victim... killing the victim instantly.

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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Aug 2005 14:24:59
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4575 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2005 :  23:25:51  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm

My adventurers stay out of this one :P

In a campaign I'm running at the moment, we have a cleric/paladin of Lathander who recently died whilst rescuing the Blood of Lathander artifact.

To make things a little more interesting for his resurrection in service to Lathander, I've decided to give him a long term obligation/quest.

With Lathander being god of rebirth etc etc I came up with the idea that the paladin would have to travel to witness the birth of a celestial (or half celestial), and look after the child/being throughout the adventures. The being if possible would be like a familiar for the paladin (not powerful enough to engage in combat etc but enough that it can be looked after etc.)

I haven't been able to find much info about this so far so I'd like some help with how a celestial would be born, and how they would develop.

Many Thanks



How about this.

While Lathander was trapped on the Plane Material plane during the Time of Troubles (or perhaps at some time after the TOT, dpending on how old you want the child to be) he mated with a mortal (Knowing Lathander probably MANY mortals) one of them gave birth to a child, for stats youve got 3 options

1) A full Blooded Celstial (In which case you should use Savage Progression)

2) A Half Celstial (Again use savage progression)

3) A Aasimar

Up until now the child has lived with its mother but the she has recently died and the child "being odd" is some what shunned by the mothers family and the community it lives in. So Lathander sends your players Paladin to look after it until it reaches adulthood.

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David Lázaro
Seeker

Spain
37 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2005 :  02:12:55  Show Profile  Visit David Lázaro's Homepage Send David Lázaro a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry to bump this old thread, but Sage, could you point me to sources of all that material on planar beings? I'm really interested in reading about that and you seem very well read.

Thanks.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31696 Posts

Posted - 01 Oct 2005 :  02:18:35  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well read? Hmmm... I love the planes, so it's only knowledge that has come from constantly reading about them (and the FORGOTTEN REALMS ). ::winks in Big Al's direction::

But here's a link that's a good start:- http://boards1.wizards.com/printthread.php?t=307692&page=1&pp=30

I'm sending you a few other specifics via PM. Note however that this (and the details from the link above) is planar material as it relates to the PLANESCAPE setting, rather than for the FR. We really do not know a great deal about the origins of the various planar races in the 3e FR. Whereas, in 2e, what was suggested in the PS material, almost always carried over to Toril as well.

Enjoy .

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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

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Edited by - The Sage on 01 Oct 2005 02:22:15
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