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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  06:47:19  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
Hi there. I need some more help with odd situations my high-powered groups keep throwing at me. In this case, they've found an NPC I created, a Myth Drannan arfaern that survived the Fall. They've been talking with him for a while and one of the ideas they've floated is him recalling the Akh'Drannor (my best guess as to what the Army of Myth Drannor would be called in elven) to help them in their quest.

Leaving aside the problem of persuading him to do it, I got to wondering if anyone would still be alive to answer such a call. It's been six and a half centuries since the Fall, which rules out all of the Allies. However, FR elves have demonstrated an ability in the past to pretty much live as long as they want to. The Call of Arvandor can be postponed through sheer force of will, let alone various types of magic.

I'm in the process of trying to figure out how many elves were in Myth Drannor's army throughout the war, and how many might have survived. But since this is pretty much guesswork, I'd welcome any insights any here have.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well.

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
26711 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  11:30:19  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sure, there could be survivors still around. It's a long time, even for an elf, but elves that were young when Myth Drannor fell would still be alive and kicking -- assuming nothing happened in the interim.

I'd not think there was a lot of them, but I will assume that there are some around.

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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1570 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  13:19:23  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Hi there. I need some more help with odd situations my high-powered groups keep throwing at me. In this case, they've found an NPC I created, a Myth Drannan arfaern that survived the Fall. They've been talking with him for a while and one of the ideas they've floated is him recalling the Akh'Drannor (my best guess as to what the Army of Myth Drannor would be called in elven) to help them in their quest.

Leaving aside the problem of persuading him to do it, I got to wondering if anyone would still be alive to answer such a call. It's been six and a half centuries since the Fall, which rules out all of the Allies. However, FR elves have demonstrated an ability in the past to pretty much live as long as they want to. The Call of Arvandor can be postponed through sheer force of will, let alone various types of magic.

I'm in the process of trying to figure out how many elves were in Myth Drannor's army throughout the war, and how many might have survived. But since this is pretty much guesswork, I'd welcome any insights any here have.



Just like finding a WWII veteran today in the States--it's doable, but do it rather quickly, eh?

The details on the names and structures of the Akh'faern et al of Myth Drannor/Cormanthyr are found in CORMANTHYR, which is a free download. I noted the high ranking and celebrity deaths in FALL OF MYTH DRANNOR, but it's easy enough for any GM to make up some mid-level officers who've survived to modern times.

Heck, there might even be a few dragons (bronze, gold, etc.) who were younglings with the dragon cavalry back then too....

And there's always Elminster to go chat with...and Lhaeo will most likely send you on to the closest OTHER veteran of the Weeping Wars...

Steven

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer

USA
1125 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  13:49:00  Show Profile  Visit ericlboyd's Homepage Send ericlboyd a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Without getting into spoilers, there's a character in Rich Baker's latest trilogy (The Last Mythal), of which books 1 and 2 have been published, which might be of significant interest to you.

--Eric

--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4372 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  15:29:27  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

[ to modern times.

Heck, there might even be a few dragons (bronze, gold, etc.) who were younglings with the dragon cavalry back then too....




Or even a Red....

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"Its good to be the King!"

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  17:22:17  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right, that character (I know him, but like you I won't say his name). He's an exception, however, due to the special circumstances surrounding him.

A problem I'm having is that it makes sense for these veterans to have fled to other elven strongholds. Four come instantly to mind: Ascalhorn, Eaerlann, Evereska, and Evermeet. The first two don't exist any more and the other two haven't exactly been safe places recently. So they may have survived the Fall, but been killed off in other battles.

Do you think that a couple hundred (more than two, less than five) would be too many? I kind of like the idea of all these old elves, scattered across Faerun, making their way to a standard set on some hill...

Oh, and thanks for the idea about the dragons, I hadn't thought of that. Maybe some of the dragons who were killed had children...

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
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khorne
Master of Realmslore

Finland
1067 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  17:23:26  Show Profile  Visit khorne's Homepage  Click to see khorne's MSN Messenger address Send khorne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

[ to modern times.

Heck, there might even be a few dragons (bronze, gold, etc.) who were younglings with the dragon cavalry back then too....




Or even a Red....

Is that red dragon still alive? I can`t remember his name.

If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
26711 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  17:32:18  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

The details on the names and structures of the Akh'faern et al of Myth Drannor/Cormanthyr are found in CORMANTHYR, which is a free download.


And here's a link to the downloads page.

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

Heck, there might even be a few dragons (bronze, gold, etc.) who were younglings with the dragon cavalry back then too....



Speaking of dragons in Myth Drannor, we still don't know what happened to Garnet...

Edit: I see a couple of other folks had the same thought. They beat me to the punch because I was checking to see what I could find real quick.

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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 05 Aug 2005 17:34:24
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  18:54:53  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Right. Shouldn't Garnet be somewhere around Wyrm or Great Wyrm age by now? I don't have my books with me (I have both Cormanthyr and Fall of Myth Drannor, otherwise I wouldn't even be attempting this), so I can't look up when he was born.

Not someone I'd want to meet in a dark alley, at any rate.

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1570 Posts

Posted - 05 Aug 2005 :  19:05:14  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Right. Shouldn't Garnet be somewhere around Wyrm or Great Wyrm age by now? I don't have my books with me (I have both Cormanthyr and Fall of Myth Drannor, otherwise I wouldn't even be attempting this), so I can't look up when he was born.

Not someone I'd want to meet in a dark alley, at any rate.



Why, yessss.... Yes, he would, wouldn't he?

Hehehehehehe.....

Steven
Doing his worst impression of Mr. Burns....

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4372 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  02:17:19  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Right. Shouldn't Garnet be somewhere around Wyrm or Great Wyrm age by now? I don't have my books with me (I have both Cormanthyr and Fall of Myth Drannor, otherwise I wouldn't even be attempting this), so I can't look up when he was born.

Not someone I'd want to meet in a dark alley, at any rate.



Why, yessss.... Yes, he would, wouldn't he?

Hehehehehehe.....

Steven
Doing his worst impression of Mr. Burns....



Not quite

Garnet would still be a Wyrm

According to LEOF Garnet was hatched in 348DR which would make him 1026 years old in 1374 which puts him the Wyrm age bracket (1001-1200)

Would it be safe to say that Saeval Ammath cast (or had someone cast) Sanctify the wicked (See Book of exalted Deeds) on Garnet before he hatched?

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1570 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  20:07:13  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth

quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend

quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Right. Shouldn't Garnet be somewhere around Wyrm or Great Wyrm age by now? I don't have my books with me (I have both Cormanthyr and Fall of Myth Drannor, otherwise I wouldn't even be attempting this), so I can't look up when he was born.

Not someone I'd want to meet in a dark alley, at any rate.



Why, yessss.... Yes, he would, wouldn't he?

Hehehehehehe.....

Steven
Doing his worst impression of Mr. Burns....



Not quite

Garnet would still be a Wyrm

According to LEOF Garnet was hatched in 348DR which would make him 1026 years old in 1374 which puts him the Wyrm age bracket (1001-1200)

Would it be safe to say that Saeval Ammath cast (or had someone cast) Sanctify the wicked (See Book of exalted Deeds) on Garnet before he hatched?



Nope. Never safe to say things in game-speak, simply because the rules keep changing.

After all, if I'd actually be slavishly following the stats that WotC keeps giving to Khelben, he not only could not have gotten away with half of what he does in his novel, he would not have been able to do 1/3 of what he's already got attributed to him in past Realmslore. THAT is why I'm a big proponent of not statting up certain NPCs and Definitely never statting up godly avatars. Stats only make certain gamers want to go out and kill them just to claim they did. <shrug> I mean, honestly, he's got better skill ranks in Painting than in certain Knowledge skills? Sheesh. And if anyone thinks that he doesn't have access to great magics simply because his stats don't say so, every GM should know THAT is why he keeps winning his fights--Khelben sends faulty info to WotC about what he can/can't do. I should know--he lied to me often enough over the years..."for thine own good..."

If it works for you that Sanctify the Wicked would help create Garnet as he exists, than that's canonical in your campaign. I'm not nearly as well versed in 3.5E as 2E, so I'll just stick to whatever story I'd already attributed to him and his creation.

Steven

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5382 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  20:17:11  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You know . . . I was under the impression that Khelbun's painting . . . while a hobby of his . . . was not a particularly . . . er . . . skillful application of his abilities . . . or at least Danilo didn't have a very high opinion of his uncle's artwork.

I agree with morphic stats for most people. In roleplaying, its often better to know what someone COULD do rather than specifically what they can do.

Speaking of survivors of Myth Drannor's Army, does anyone know if Glenn, in Mistledale, was founded by dwarves that lived in Myth Drannor, or is the proximity just a happy coincidence.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1570 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  20:28:22  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

You know . . . I was under the impression that Khelbun's painting . . . while a hobby of his . . . was not a particularly . . . er . . . skillful application of his abilities . . . or at least Danilo didn't have a very high opinion of his uncle's artwork.


"Let it be known, kind knight and all within earshot, that I alone am allowed to call my love Khelbun, Khelbuns, or any playful nicknames of that sort. Lest he get cranky and come to correct you himself.... Light laughter and sweet water to ye all." Laeral

quote:

I agree with morphic stats for most people. In roleplaying, its often better to know what someone COULD do rather than specifically what they can do.

Speaking of survivors of Myth Drannor's Army, does anyone know if Glenn, in Mistledale, was founded by dwarves that lived in Myth Drannor, or is the proximity just a happy coincidence.



Yes. I think it's a great idea if it were formed as a result of refugees from Myth Drannor's fall (or perhaps those who left earlier than the Weeping War, giving people a place to flee to). Good spotting there....

Steven

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  20:49:29  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ooo! Very good idea. I hadn't thought of that at all, but it fits nicely.

As regarding the statting powerful creatures line, I have a quote from a Shadowrun adventure (Harlequin's Back) that I think fits nicely regarding why they won't stat out the main hero (Harlequin, an immortal elf):

"The game master should treat him [Harlequin] and others like him as tools around which to write and run interesting stories. No player character should ever be able to beat Harlequin, therefore he needs no stats. (First Axiom of Roleplaying Games: Give it stats and someone will kill it, no regardless of how tough it's supposed to be.)"

Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
26711 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  21:45:04  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ooo! Very good idea. I hadn't thought of that at all, but it fits nicely.

As regarding the statting powerful creatures line, I have a quote from a Shadowrun adventure (Harlequin's Back) that I think fits nicely regarding why they won't stat out the main hero (Harlequin, an immortal elf):

"The game master should treat him [Harlequin] and others like him as tools around which to write and run interesting stories. No player character should ever be able to beat Harlequin, therefore he needs no stats. (First Axiom of Roleplaying Games: Give it stats and someone will kill it, no regardless of how tough it's supposed to be.)"



That's one of the things I liked in some of the early Realms stuff. It gave a recommended level for NPCs, and then said that DMs sould feel free to do things like bump an NPC up to 10 levels higher than the PCs, to keep the PCs from going after them.

And now, to get back on topic... Steven, other than the big names like Khelben, are there any specific survivors of the Fall that you've dreamed up?

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Kuje
Great Reader

USA
7894 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  21:50:13  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
That's one of the things I liked in some of the early Realms stuff. It gave a recommended level for NPCs, and then said that DMs sould feel free to do things like bump an NPC up to 10 levels higher than the PCs, to keep the PCs from going after them.

And now, to get back on topic... Steven, other than the big names like Khelben, are there any specific survivors of the Fall that you've dreamed up?



Zoar was one but well he got assassinated, as we know. :) We truly don't know if Symruster is dead either.... they never found the body. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 06 Aug 2005 :  22:07:05  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It's very strongly hinted that every officer above kerym (I think) was killed in the Fall. The fact that Fflar was a kerym and one of the highest ranking officers in the final days is rather indicative. And, since the Akh'Velahrn and Akh'Faern officers could command each other in a pinch, that means a similar decimation in the Akh'Faer. I'm sure all of the arfaern were dead, I created one by DM fiat, not because I realistically thought one survived.

(By the way, Steven, I love the Akh'Faer rank tatoos. It's one of the reasons I went for an arfaern, so I could show off the maximum number of them.)

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
3628 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2005 :  00:40:16  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The most famous survivor of the battle for Myth Drannor excepting the usual Chosen suspects is the Lady Ahskahala Durothil, one of that city's and now Evermeet's dragon riders. See the 2E source "Elves of Evermeet", p.92-93.

In fact, I'm sure if you read that product in detail, you might come across other survivors of the Weeping War.

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Dargoth
Great Reader

Australia
4372 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2005 :  01:11:47  Show Profile  Visit Dargoth's Homepage Send Dargoth a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think Ed or someone has something planned for the dwarven town of Glenn around a year ago I asked him about the town (in particular its trade in dragon eggs) and got one of those infamous NDAs.

I suspect theres maybe a Dalelands source book coming soon or Ed plans to use the town in some way in his Knights of Myth Drannor trilogy

“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”

Emperor Sigismund

"Its good to be the King!"

Mel Brooks
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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 07 Aug 2005 :  03:43:59  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
But do we know if she survived the battle in Evermeet: Island of Elves? She and her dragon (and several others) were put into High Magic stasis and were released in that battle. But I don't remember any note on whether she survived or not in the book. Does she show up in any later products?

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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore

Australia
3628 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2005 :  00:54:52  Show Profile Send George Krashos a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Like I said, see the 2E product "Elves of Evermeet".

-- George Krashos

"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus
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Kuje
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USA
7894 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2005 :  01:37:24  Show Profile  Send Kuje an AOL message  Click to see Kuje's MSN Messenger address  Send Kuje a Yahoo! Message Send Kuje a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos

Like I said, see the 2E product "Elves of Evermeet".

-- George Krashos




Yes, but I believe that the sourcebook was writen before the novel. :)

For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird

My Goodreads page: http://www.goodreads.com/kuje

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Hoondatha
Great Reader

USA
2209 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2005 :  06:27:52  Show Profile  Visit Hoondatha's Homepage Send Hoondatha a Private Message  Reply with Quote
It was. That's why I'm curious to know if she's still alive.

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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1570 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2005 :  23:21:42  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

It's very strongly hinted that every officer above kerym (I think) was killed in the Fall. The fact that Fflar was a kerym and one of the highest ranking officers in the final days is rather indicative. And, since the Akh'Velahrn and Akh'Faern officers could command each other in a pinch, that means a similar decimation in the Akh'Faer. I'm sure all of the arfaern were dead, I created one by DM fiat, not because I realistically thought one survived.

(By the way, Steven, I love the Akh'Faer rank tatoos. It's one of the reasons I went for an arfaern, so I could show off the maximum number of them.)



Try this scenario on for size--You're a mid- to high-ranking elf and you've seen your people get slaughtered all around you. You're not a coward, but you and five others are all that's left of three-score, so you quickly swap your armor for a private's and cover up your rank tattoos....allowing you to go into hiding to fight back another day.

If a few lone Japanese guys can hide out in the jungles of the Pacific for decades to fight WWII, why not a few akh'faer hiding in the northern forests?

And I'm glad others like the tattoos. I never got around to writing up some of the grislier items to result from the Weeping War--Imagine gloves/sleeves/bracers of leather made from the tattooed skin of an akh'faer officer....or leather armor almost impervious to spells due to being made from the skins of a dozen akh'faer....etc. THIS is the sort of stuff we'd always think up and it would be logical from the Army of Darkness standpoint...but TSR would never let us print it. <shrug> And no, I don't have stats--just those ideas...

Steven
Who's getting more curious to see where y'all will take this campaign idea...

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author

USA
1570 Posts

Posted - 08 Aug 2005 :  23:30:10  Show Profile  Visit Steven Schend's Homepage  Send Steven Schend a Yahoo! Message Send Steven Schend a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha

But do we know if she survived the battle in Evermeet: Island of Elves? She and her dragon (and several others) were put into High Magic stasis and were released in that battle. But I don't remember any note on whether she survived or not in the book. Does she show up in any later products?



If you're asking me, yes, "Hala" survived along with her dragon mount. Chances are she should be back in stasis again.

Officially, you'll have to ask Rich or someone else at WotC.

SES
Who (to answer another query) states that anyone he intended to kill between Cormanthyr and FOMD left a body behind...and yes, the comic-book "no body=no death" rule DEFINITELY should apply to quite a few folks therein.

PS: Remember that "The Nameless Chosen" gets marked as a death in the Myth Drannan rosters, simply because they didn't see him after he got hauled through the Silversgate and it exploded....but he's still hale and hearty as the Blackstaff....

For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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