Candlekeep Forum
Candlekeep Forum
Home | Profile | Register | Active Topics | Active Polls | Members | Private Messages | Search | FAQ
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

 All Forums
 Forgotten Realms Journals
 Running the Realms
 Gold Elves - What attitude do they really have?
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Previous Page | Next Page
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4

Aravine
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2012 :  04:17:09  Show Profile  Visit Aravine's Homepage Send Aravine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.



From the Candlekeep elven dictionary
A’Tel’Quessir – ‘Almost People’ (Half-Elves)
Alu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Water’(Aquatic Elves)
Ar’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Sun’(Sun Elves)
N'Tel’Quessir - ‘Not of the People’ (Non-Elves)((posters' note there is only two references to any other races,and they are either a phrase,or slang,and both relating to human))
Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Sy’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Wilds’(Wild Elves)
Teu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Moon’(Moon Elves)
Or’Tel’Quessir – ‘People of the Wood’(Wood Elves)


Bottom line, The elves are incredibly haughty,this includes the sun elves. However,this list is no where near exdhaustive. it still ilustrates my point.

The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all

Edited by - Aravine on 14 Aug 2012 04:18:53
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29903 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2012 :  05:05:01  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.



From the Candlekeep elven dictionary
A’Tel’Quessir – ‘Almost People’ (Half-Elves)
Alu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Water’(Aquatic Elves)
Ar’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Sun’(Sun Elves)
N'Tel’Quessir - ‘Not of the People’ (Non-Elves)((posters' note there is only two references to any other races,and they are either a phrase,or slang,and both relating to human))
Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Sy’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Wilds’(Wild Elves)
Teu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Moon’(Moon Elves)
Or’Tel’Quessir – ‘People of the Wood’(Wood Elves)


Bottom line, The elves are incredibly haughty,this includes the sun elves. However,this list is no where near exdhaustive. it still ilustrates my point.



No, it doesn't. You admit yourself that it's not exhaustive... Just because I can only count to 20 in Spanish, it doesn't mean the Spanish language doesn't have words for numbers higher than that. The fact that I don't know the words doesn't mean they don't exist.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5353 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2012 :  15:52:57  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
there's no option for horny

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

Aravine
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2012 :  23:26:37  Show Profile  Visit Aravine's Homepage Send Aravine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.



From the Candlekeep elven dictionary
A’Tel’Quessir – ‘Almost People’ (Half-Elves)
Alu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Water’(Aquatic Elves)
Ar’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Sun’(Sun Elves)
N'Tel’Quessir - ‘Not of the People’ (Non-Elves)((posters' note there is only two references to any other races,and they are either a phrase,or slang,and both relating to human))
Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Sy’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Wilds’(Wild Elves)
Teu’Tel'Quessir - ‘People of the Moon’(Moon Elves)
Or’Tel’Quessir – ‘People of the Wood’(Wood Elves)


Bottom line, The elves are incredibly haughty,this includes the sun elves. However,this list is no where near exdhaustive. it still ilustrates my point.



No, it doesn't. You admit yourself that it's not exhaustive... Just because I can only count to 20 in Spanish, it doesn't mean the Spanish language doesn't have words for numbers higher than that. The fact that I don't know the words doesn't mean they don't exist.



yes,but that is a circular argument. the fact that it doesnt appear in the elven dictionary could mean that it is merely not in there. it is also possible that it isn't in the elven language.and although the possiblity exsists that I am wrong,the proof being half elf is translated into "almost-people" supports my supposition that the elves simply arrogant enough to see no difference between all the other races. After all.After a certain level of inferiority everything looks the same. and if you look at it threal distinction needed at way the only is friend or enemy.

The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all
Go to Top of Page

Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29903 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  00:33:06  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine


yes,but that is a circular argument. the fact that it doesnt appear in the elven dictionary could mean that it is merely not in there. it is also possible that it isn't in the elven language.and although the possiblity exsists that I am wrong,the proof being half elf is translated into "almost-people" supports my supposition that the elves simply arrogant enough to see no difference between all the other races. After all.After a certain level of inferiority everything looks the same. and if you look at it threal distinction needed at way the only is friend or enemy.



You're basing your entire argument on something that's got as many words as a primer for 2nd graders. In all of D&D canon, we've only got a few hundred words of elven, for any breed of elf in any world. The average person's vocabulary is 4000-5000 words, and any real world dictionary will have many times that many words.

Even given a highly arrogant race, I think it nonsensical to assume they would have no verbal means of distinguishing between humans and goblins, or pixies and gnolls, or whatever.

The most logical assumption is that we've simply not seen the relevant words in print.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Editor and scribe for The Candlekeep Compendium

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
Go to Top of Page

Aravine
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  01:55:51  Show Profile  Visit Aravine's Homepage Send Aravine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Aravine


yes,but that is a circular argument. the fact that it doesnt appear in the elven dictionary could mean that it is merely not in there. it is also possible that it isn't in the elven language.and although the possiblity exsists that I am wrong,the proof being half elf is translated into "almost-people" supports my supposition that the elves simply arrogant enough to see no difference between all the other races. After all.After a certain level of inferiority everything looks the same. and if you look at it threal distinction needed at way the only is friend or enemy.



You're basing your entire argument on something that's got as many words as a primer for 2nd graders. In all of D&D canon, we've only got a few hundred words of elven, for any breed of elf in any world. The average person's vocabulary is 4000-5000 words, and any real world dictionary will have many times that many words.

Even given a highly arrogant race, I think it nonsensical to assume they would have no verbal means of distinguishing between humans and goblins, or pixies and gnolls, or whatever.

The most logical assumption is that we've simply not seen the relevant words in print.



But even with that, if you see your self as superior. you could call a rose or a rose,or you could call it a flower. the same is true of an iris or any other flower. just because there are flowers that are absolutely different and distinct doesnt mean the general population won't call all of them a flower. if Elfkind views the rest of the races as no more important then flowers or trees are to us,they may in fact not make the distinction and only view it as "friend" "enemy" elf" "not elf

The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all
Go to Top of Page

Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader

USA
3747 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  03:07:30  Show Profile  Click to see Alystra Illianniis's MSN Messenger address Send Alystra Illianniis a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Actually, they DO have words for the different races, including different branches of their own race- it's just that all the non-elven races tend to get lumped together as "N'Tel'Quessir" to diffentiate that they are NOT of the elven People. Not only that, but the elven language has different words even for aunt, uncle, cousin, and so on- simply based on gender and which side of the family they come from. Given that, do you REALLY think such a complex and descriptive language would NOT have names for the other races? Logic alone says NO.

And just to give some examples- these all came from the Elven-Common dictionary on Gray Company's site. (Which seems to be defunct now, but I downloaded the entire thing years ago.) While it is not "canon" to FR, much of it was taken from FR sources, and it the most complete elven dictionary I've ever found.

human- edan
dwarf(dwarves)- naug(naugrim)
halfing- peredhil
orc- glamhoth
gnome- nogoth
half-elf- elandil
centaur- rah-edan
dryad- nandin
werewolf- gaur

Clearly, they do distinguish between other races, just as those races themselves do. They have names for them, but they see them all as being non-elven first and foremost. Thus the N'Tel'Quess appalation.

The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.

"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491

"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs

Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469

My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188

Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u

Edited by - Alystra Illianniis on 15 Aug 2012 03:49:53
Go to Top of Page

Lady Shadowflame
Learned Scribe

115 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  04:39:52  Show Profile Send Lady Shadowflame a Private Message  Reply with Quote
If you read some of the books featuring noble intrigues in certain places, you'd surely get the impression all humans in Faerun are horrible people. And yet nobody claims that, for some reason.

The haughtier gold elves we've seen are the Myrna Cassalanters and Isabeau Thiones of their people, in my opinion...

I'd rather take Wyn Ashgrove as a better example.

Save a lizard... Ride a drow.
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2605 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  10:30:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Because humans have a variety that other races don't.

Besides, in Races of Faerun it is explicitly said that Sun Elves hold prejudices against pretty much everyone. They do so with the other elven subraces because they think that such People are not capable of staying true to ''the elven heritage'' or some BS like that, and their attitude becomes extreme when it comes to humans, considering that the book says that the ''average'' Sun Elf wouldn't even bother to talk to a human, and would leave him/her to die, rather than lend a hand for help.

This alone says a lot about Sun Elven attitude. Obviously a few exceptions exist, but I'd like to see these becoming more prominent, because, as things are now, Sun Elves -in this sense- have a mentality that doesn't differ much from lolthite drow's one...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 15 Aug 2012 11:14:40
Go to Top of Page

Tarlyn
Learned Scribe

USA
304 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  12:05:15  Show Profile Send Tarlyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I always thought that the gold elf attitude started to mellow after the attack by rebel gold elves on Evermeet in 1371. I still think they aren't going to win friendly sub race of the month, but I thought that they won't be competing quite as strongly with lolthite drow.

Tarlyn Embersun
Go to Top of Page

Kno
Senior Scribe

452 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  12:34:31  Show Profile Send Kno a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans

z455t
Go to Top of Page

sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5353 Posts

Posted - 15 Aug 2012 :  14:51:12  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans



DING! Score 1

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1790 Posts

Posted - 23 Oct 2012 :  04:55:31  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I agree with Kno. Oh yes, elves (particularly sun elves) can be quite haughty. I'm an elf lover and I still acknowledge that. Some can be jerks, even to moon elves, and especially to wood elves. But I chose choice two, caring but aloof, because if nothing else, they care for other sun elves. And they aren't the only race that views themselves as superior. Pick any race in Faerun and most probably view themselves as superior.

Plus, elves are one of the older races in Faerun (not the oldest, but older). They were building great civilizations while humans were still living in caves, so there is naturally going to be some bias there.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire

USA
13452 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  19:55:18  Show Profile Send Markustay a Private Message  Reply with Quote
@Alystra - you can't really use non-canon sources to support this argument. You said "they DO have words for the different races", but that is just supposition at this point.

I am not saying I don't agree that there would be such words (it does make sense), but we have thus-far not seen them. I believe the dictionary Lord Karsus compiled is the most comprehensive and FR-specific. I've found words in a few dragon articles which he refused to put in simply because they were 'core' (and he was absolutely right on that account).

quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans



DING! Score 1
Agreed.

I've been saying for awhile now how it sucks that when we want to discuss 'bad guys' we can simply use 'humanoids', but if we want to talk about their adversaries we have to say humans and demi-humans... thats a mouthful. We need one word (that would be politically correct for everyone) to descride the non-humanoid human-like races (which should include humans). I used to use 'Humanish', but that doesn't really have a nice ring to it. How about Anthroids? Too scify? That would also cover humanish creatures with beastial features, so it is still imperfect.

'People' is too generic.
'The Goodly Folk' is too Tolkienesque, plus its still overly long.
I've seen 'The Free peoples' being used, but once again, that's a mouthful.
'Humankin' sounds good, but would still be considered politically incorrect. Good for game rules, though.

"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone


Edited by - Markustay on 24 Oct 2012 20:05:42
Go to Top of Page

Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2605 Posts

Posted - 24 Oct 2012 :  21:06:25  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

quote:
Originally posted by Kno

Humans are worse, they call other races demihumans



DING! Score 1



Elves call other races N'Tel'Quessir (not of the People), so I really don't see the difference. Elves aren't exactly known for being politically correct...

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
Go to Top of Page

Dr. Dieter McMuff
Acolyte

USA
6 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2012 :  20:00:31  Show Profile Send Dr. Dieter McMuff a Private Message  Reply with Quote
That's amazing. Not one mention of Jander Sunstar, the Gold Elf Vampire. Granted, his particular experiences probably would have knocked anyone off the old high horse, but it did sound like that even when he did breathe, he wasn't the condescending type.
Now this is probably where someone would point out another particular elf that doesn't conform to the social corn so I'll go ahead and do it for ya. I just wanted to toss another Gold Elf on the table.
I'm actually working on a little project that Evermeet will have somewhat of a part in. Seeing that their culture hasn't shaken that gated community outlook just makes what I'm going to do easier.
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1790 Posts

Posted - 25 Nov 2012 :  20:56:40  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*headdesk* wow, you're right, I forgot about Jander, which is foolish because I loved him! I read the short story about him in Anthology of the Elves, and then Vampire of the Mists.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Moderator

Australia
31688 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  02:01:49  Show Profile  Send The Sage an AOL message  Click to see The Sage's MSN Messenger address  Send The Sage a Yahoo! Message Send The Sage a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout

*headdesk* wow, you're right, I forgot about Jander, which is foolish because I loved him! I read the short story about him in Anthology of the Elves, and then Vampire of the Mists.

Jander's FR anthology appearances include:- "One Last Drink" from Realms of Valor, "The Quiet Place" from Realms of Magic, and "Blood Sport" from Realms of Infamy.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)

"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood

Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1790 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  03:13:43  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah, well "Blood Sport" also appeared in Anthology of the Elves. That's where I first learned of him. I haven't read the other two short stories.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

Kentinal
Great Reader

4275 Posts

Posted - 26 Nov 2012 :  03:37:39  Show Profile Send Kentinal a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well this is interesting, what and how much to reply if I fail Wis check?

While not convinced that Gray Company's site is the best, I would point to http://eilistraee.com/chosen/language.php?page=grammar and associated links.

Evermeet Gold Elves had a guilt trip because of one of them betrayed them, on the other hand Gold Elves started the Crown wars. The I am the best of the best appears to be thousands of years running. Indeed they as a sub-race might be chastised for a while when plan fails, it clearly appears to be an indication that some will rise to the top to lead them to a better plan in which Gold is better then others.

Of course over the thousands of years we know only the few that make the press, that is becoming history, so all Gold should not be judged by recorded actions of the few.


"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon
Go to Top of Page

Drustan Dwnhaedan
Learned Scribe

USA
323 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2013 :  07:59:47  Show Profile Send Drustan Dwnhaedan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Came across this thread while I was poking around, and decided to put in my two cents worth. While I do love elves (heck, one of my first characters was a Sun Elf), I had to vote 'pompous jerks' simply based on my own experiences with them (most of my characters' kin were not happy when he began worshipping Eilistraee). Unfortunately, there were no options on the list that would suitably describe my character's personality, save the one that sleyvas noted was absent from the list.



quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas

there's no option for horny



Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1790 Posts

Posted - 28 Sep 2013 :  20:09:35  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm going to have to agree, DD. I love elves, including gold elves, but they can also be snobs--moon elves are probably the best. But not all gold elves are snobs. IIRC, most of the elves in Return of the Archwizards and Last Mythal were sun elves.

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page

TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 30 Sep 2013 :  09:33:40  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Ssri'Tel'Quessir - ‘Drow Elves’ (Pre-Descent)
Er, no, obviously, if it's supposed to be a translation, "Dark Elves", or maybe "Night Elves". And by definition pre-Descent they couldn't be "drow".
For that matter, canonically "Drow" itself is bastardized "Dhaerow" ("black heart").
Also presumably the Creator races in some old sources are refferred to as "Iquar'Tel'Quessir".

quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Dieter McMuff

That's amazing. Not one mention of Jander Sunstar, the Gold Elf Vampire. Granted, his particular experiences probably would have knocked anyone off the old high horse, but it did sound like that even when he did breathe
Well, yeah.
The "particular experiences" part applies to Vartan Hai Sylvar, too.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
Go to Top of Page

The Arcanamach
Master of Realmslore

1582 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2013 :  15:59:50  Show Profile Send The Arcanamach a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I didn't vote on this as none of the categories seem right to me. I largely do not care for how elves have been portrayed in FR but that's just me (and another discussion). Elves are extremely long lived race and discussing them requires an understanding of the implications of their near-immortality. Imagine watching century after century as everything you hold dear diminishes (forests, kingdoms, loved ones dying at the hands of other races, etc). Add to that the fact that elves had a hand in the rise of humankind (in many ways) only to have their lands encroached upon and magic abused in many ways by them. At some point, much resentment would build within their culture just as it does in the real world...except that for elves, who are longer lived, this resentment would continue to be fresh in their minds. Just look at how some cultures have been warring against each other for thousands of years and imagine how much more so the problem would be for elves. In some regards, the fact that they haven't attempted to destroy most other species through High Magic or other means shows that they are, for the most part, of good heart. They are just wounded on a fundamental level in some regards.

I have a dream that one day, all game worlds will exist as one.
Go to Top of Page

CorellonsDevout
Master of Realmslore

USA
1790 Posts

Posted - 30 Dec 2013 :  23:46:08  Show Profile  Send CorellonsDevout an AOL message Send CorellonsDevout a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I wish there was a "like" option, but as there is not, I will just say I agree with you, Arcana

Sweet water and light laughter
Go to Top of Page
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
Previous Page | Next Page
 New Topic  New Poll New Poll
 Reply to Topic
 Printer Friendly
Jump To:
Candlekeep Forum © 1999-2017 Candlekeep.com Go To Top Of Page
Snitz Forums 2000