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 Gold Elves - What attitude do they really have?
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader

USA
5402 Posts

Posted - 10 May 2006 :  04:33:50  Show Profile  Visit KnightErrantJR's Homepage Send KnightErrantJR a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I rather like how Vartan Hai Sylvar was portrayed in the old Forgotten Realms comic. He was arrogant, but it was comedic, as he tended to show his personal opinions at all the wrong times, and yet he still was friends with the crew of the Realmsmaster, often times not realizing when he had said something really insulting. For example, he assumed that human women must love him. Which is not to say the character was always played for comedy, especially not during the Time of Troubles issues.

"Because philosophy arises from awe, a philosopher is bound in his way to be a lover of myths and poetic fables. Poets and philosophers are alike in being big with wonder."--Saint Thomas Aquinas

http://knighterrantjr.blogspot.com/

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sleyvas
Great Reader

USA
5348 Posts

Posted - 11 May 2006 :  20:09:41  Show Profile Send sleyvas a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'll just say that the Klu Klux Kl---- I mean the Eldreth Veluuthra--- is probably predominantly filled with gold elves. That would be because the dark elves think hiding your feelings (or at least as much as they have to) just is for sissies. Drow occasionally let others know that they don't like them... sometimes even before they backstab them.

Alavairthae, may your skill prevail

Phillip aka Sleyvas
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe

Greece
564 Posts

Posted - 24 May 2008 :  10:30:52  Show Profile  Visit BARDOBARBAROS's Homepage Send BARDOBARBAROS a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Caring Individuals, Just Aloof

BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!


"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2)
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 26 May 2008 :  14:40:24  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pompous jerks...

'Everyone dies...I only choose the time and place for a few.' --Eric Destler
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TheArchPriest
Acolyte

Brazil
14 Posts

Posted - 31 May 2008 :  01:27:05  Show Profile  Visit TheArchPriest's Homepage Send TheArchPriest a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Powerhungry Magic wielders and Pompous Jerks and Good people too
Note:this is a good comment!(I am serious, reasons can be found below)

Thats why I love them!They're just like me!

Black Flame Zealot
Influent Kossuthan Cleric

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Elestar
Seeker

Hungary
27 Posts

Posted - 19 Jul 2008 :  21:23:10  Show Profile  Visit Elestar's Homepage Send Elestar a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Most sun elves (or gold elves if you like) are caring individuals. All of them are aloof, moderately to their elven brethren, and ultimately to the N'Tel'Quess.

Powerhungry? Yes, maybe. At least the majority of the most known individuals.
Pompous? They don't want to offend anyone with that.

One have to consider, that most sun elves grow up knowing that their ancestors were put down something on the table, and that makes them proud. They also know that they are very well incorporated in to the magical forces, hence they know that they have a fair aptitude to the lovely Art and the longest life expectancy of their otherwise also longelived race. And while knowing this, sun elves live thinking, they have the time to master things, as they truly have. And this is the reason why they have the tendency to think they "know better" than anyone elese.


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Talwyn
Learned Scribe

Australia
222 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2008 :  09:42:40  Show Profile  Visit Talwyn's Homepage Send Talwyn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Cowards and charlatons, the lot 'o 'em!

A useless shower that the realms would be best left without.

Let them cower on their magical island in the ocean, who needs them anyway eh?

Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett

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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2012 :  13:30:20  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Wow nobody seems to like Gold elves much. Though they tend to be arrogant not all of them are pompous jerks you know.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2602 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2012 :  14:56:05  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I like elves as mysterious and sensitive beings, who seldom meddle in other races' affairs (unless they have a chance to affect the People), but who can nonetheless be open minded and show acceptance. That's why I like Moon Elves.

I've always imagined Sun Elves as isolationist, distrusting, mystical people focused on perfecting their arts, crafts and magical knowledge.
However (in canon, AFAIK) they appear to be the perfect exemplification of what led the Tel'Quessir to their fall. They have a self righteous, close minded ''we and our gods are the bestest of all, so we have the full right to dispose of the destiny of the others, cast awesome, ever lasting curses of doom on people (etc...), because what we do inevitably leads to the right solution'' kind of attitude, which is simply stupid, annoying, and jerky.

So yeah, I can see why not many are fond of the Gold Elves, and while there are some of them who behave differently, I can't do anything but dislike them (as -AFAIK- they are in canon) until the number of the ones among them who think clear-headed (and stop with the ''you're inferior'' attitude) becomes non neglectable.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Jul 2012 15:05:07
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Ayrik
Great Reader

Canada
6194 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2012 :  15:28:58  Show Profile Send Ayrik a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Irennan

They have a self righteous, close minded ''we and our gods are the bestest of all, so we have the full right to dispose of the destiny of the others, cast awesome, ever lasting curses of doom on people (etc...), because what we do inevitably leads to the right solution'' kind of attitude ...
That's not a lot different from the attitudes of every group, race, nation - real or fantastic.

Maybe these condescendingly superior elves are responsible, compassionate, and wise in ways we cannot readily understand. Perhaps not as much as they'd like to believe, given the perceptions humans (and others?) seem to have of their race. It's always an eye-opener when people drop all pretense of civility and say what they really mean in blunt and bludgeoning terms.

Eat lots of garlic - it keeps the elves and vampires away.
Don't stick your sword into dragons, you just don't know where they've been.
Avoid stepping on halflings. They stick to your boots, will smell awful, and are impossible to scrape off.
Ah, of course. Never play leapfrog with a unicorn.
[/Ayrik]
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Thauranil
Master of Realmslore

India
1591 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2012 :  18:36:34  Show Profile Send Thauranil a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes instead off portraying them pontificating , judgmental and vain fools , they should be considered brutally honest. But the main problem with viewpoint is that they have shown themselves to be as slippery and treacherous as anyone else.
However we should bear in mind that theirs is an alien mindset and so actions that might seem condescending to us might be intended to seem genuinely caring by them.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2602 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2012 :  18:51:57  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
That's not a lot different from the attitudes of every group, race, nation - real or fantastic.

Maybe these condescendingly superior elves are responsible, compassionate, and wise in ways we cannot readily understand. Perhaps not as much as they'd like to believe, given the perceptions humans (and others?) seem to have of their race. It's always an eye-opener when people drop all pretense of civility and say what they really mean in blunt and bludgeoning terms.



Nah, not many races have as streamline attitude ''you're inferior, so let us who know better sort the situation''(yes, real history is full of that racist crap, but that is beyond the scope of these forums). Even among elves you can find subraces who are generally capable of being open minded and showing acceptance (AFAIK, Moon Elves are described as open to cosmopolitanism, for example. Yeah, some of them can show racism, be arrogant etc... and perhaps the number of the ones who behave so isn't neglectable, but this is kinda obvious, since no intelligent race -except probably current drow- is one-note).


About your second point, IMO it doesn't make sense to say that Sun Elves are responsible and compassionate in ways that we cannot understand.

Generally (not all, ofc) Sun Elves show intense prejudice towards anyone non elven (and would prefer to let a human die rather than save him/her, even when doing so requires a small effort), deem themselves the ''true People'' whose duty is to teach other Tel'Quessir how to live (how arrogant do you have to be to think this?), refuse to understand how idiotic and unjust was the conclusion of the Crown Wars towards the (former) Dark Elves (actually, this seems to be common among elves, but exacerbated among Gold ones) etc... (all of this is in RoF, IIRC).
This basically shows what I said in my previous post, and there's no way that people who think and behave like that can be compassionate and caring (even tho, again, some groups of Sun Elves can be).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/

Edited by - Irennan on 07 Jul 2012 18:54:29
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore

USA
1356 Posts

Posted - 07 Jul 2012 :  19:51:29  Show Profile Send Eilserus a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Elminster in Myth Drannor pretty much sums up elves for me, gold elves in particular. They believe in the status quo and hold to the old ways, their innate sense of superiority enforced by the deeds of their ancestors thousands of years ago. Sadly, it seems they live off their past glories and have fallen into a type of decadence, view humans as unwashed beasts that are barely a step up from orcs and refusing to admit or even consider that they should play nice with humanity even with the threat of being swept away by them due to their numbers. Prior to the fall of Myth Drannor, they had such a beautiful kingdom and one so strongly defended by magic, there wasn't any need to go off and be great heroes like their ancestors, so they turned to house intrigue, and political and social standing as a way to pass their time. This struck me as almost like a cancer that ate them away from inside, until you ended up with elven noble houses like the wicked Starym.
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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  20:36:05  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Generally, the main difference is that silver elves got random-sized sticks up their butts, and goldies tend toward decastaves.
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

I rather like how Vartan Hai Sylvar was portrayed in the old Forgotten Realms comic. He was arrogant, but it was comedic [...] Which is not to say the character was always played for comedy, especially not during the Time of Troubles issues.

Vartan just wasn't terminally oblivious. He knew he isn't gnoll chow only because Agrivar happened to be around and later was hit with a ship-sized clue bat, seeing how Seldarine have much the same problems scaled up.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik

That's not a lot different from the attitudes of every group, race, nation - real or fantastic.
There are sweeping statements... and then there are spilling statements.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Elminster in Myth Drannor pretty much sums up elves for me, gold elves in particular. They believe in the status quo and hold to the old ways, their innate sense of superiority enforced by the deeds of their ancestors thousands of years ago.
That's equally appliable to them all. Many of those panicking nobles were Moon elves, and half of Starym too. No big difference.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Sadly, it seems they live off their past glories and have fallen into a type of decadence, view humans as unwashed beasts that are barely a step up from orcs and refusing to admit or even consider that they should play nice with humanity even with the threat of being swept away by them due to their numbers.
And that is appliable even more than others to IEN personnel.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus

Prior to the fall of Myth Drannor, they had such a beautiful kingdom and one so strongly defended by magic, there wasn't any need to go off and be great heroes like their ancestors, so they turned to house intrigue, and political and social standing as a way to pass their time. This struck me as almost like a cancer that ate them away from inside
It's not that there wasn't a need... Prior to the rise of Myth Drannor, hobgoblins could muck around and slaughter an elven patrol just like that. They were puffed up to obliviousness about most of their problems, as long as enemies aren't about to enter their capital city. And the main difference was that Moon elves sometimes borrowed low-brow tricks from humans instead of developing their own.
High and mighty folk of Cormanthyr were lucky in that Eltargrim was alert enough to see the situation and invent a solution with some chance of actually working. And collected a few followers understanding they're in that up to eartips and if he throws them a rope, they'd better use it to climb out, rather than to shoot themselves in a leg.
So of course elves started screaming their feasts are threatened (but still claimed to be high and mighty), waving fireworks and cutlery. Note that all these shining armathors, most conspicuously, did not rise in an equally aggressive fashion to kick goblinkin out of their backyard. Showing exactly how much their "righteous indignation" was worth.
For an historical comparison, it's late Roman empire grade of decadence - high and mighty folk of Rome couldn't bother to defend themselves or find their pants without a map, had to use Christians or Goths for these tasks, at the same time looking down on them. And hated anyone who put an extra effort into doing something remotely useful, even if it happened to be saving their own hides from threats currenty out of sight (and thus out of mind). It can get this bad.

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch

Edited by - TBeholder on 08 Jul 2012 20:38:42
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Brimstone
Great Reader

USA
2887 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  23:11:00  Show Profile Send Brimstone a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by GRYPHON

Pompous jerks...


Indeed...

"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe

Canada
592 Posts

Posted - 08 Jul 2012 :  23:39:53  Show Profile  Click to see Foxhelm's MSN Messenger address  Send Foxhelm a Yahoo! Message Send Foxhelm a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I read this and wonder...

Is Elaine Cunningham too damn good an author?

The Game Books have Gold Elves as heroes and villains and everything between. Characters people can love and root for.

Rick Baker writes a trilogy about heroic elves including likeable Gold Elf heroes.

Elaine writes a small group of racist elves in one book, most of which are killed, save their leader who makes it to a second book...

And the racist elitist Gold elf is what people know.

So...

Is Elaine Cunningham too damn good an author?

Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems!
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2602 Posts

Posted - 09 Jul 2012 :  01:14:04  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Generally novels portray only small parts of the bigger picture, and things can be bent to the necessity of the story. Sourcebooks give the general idea about aspects of the setting, so I usually trust them over novels, and IIRC RoF describes Sun Elves as mostly racist and elitist (granted, some of them can be caring and compassionate, but they're a minority according to what I read there).

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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GRYPHON
Senior Scribe

USA
520 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  10:27:48  Show Profile  Visit GRYPHON's Homepage Send GRYPHON a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pompous jerks...
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author

USA
4586 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  16:17:37  Show Profile  Visit Erik Scott de Bie's Homepage  Send Erik Scott de Bie an AOL message Send Erik Scott de Bie a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've written some gold/sun elves on occasion, particularly in my Realms of the Elves story (contasting their attitudes with those of an open-minded moon elf), and I will say that I enjoy the dichotomy. Sun elves should not be portrayed as a race of stuffy shirts with various rectal implants, but I do think they have a tendency toward being snobby/aloof. One of my good friends plays an elf wizard who goes out of his way to deliver extremely clever backhanded compliments and treat every non-elf with the most polite contempt you could imagine.

quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm

I read this and wonder...
Is Elaine Cunningham too damn good an author?

Like, does she make one's head explode because of her writing skills?

In that case, yes.

Cheers

Erik Scott de Bie

'Tis easier to destroy than to create.

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TBeholder
Master of Realmslore

1396 Posts

Posted - 10 Jul 2012 :  17:39:38  Show Profile Send TBeholder a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm

The Game Books have Gold Elves as heroes and villains and everything between. Characters people can love and root for.
Rick Baker writes a trilogy about heroic elves including likeable Gold Elf heroes.

Elaine writes a small group of racist elves in one book, most of which are killed, save their leader who makes it to a second book...
And the racist elitist Gold elf is what people know.
So...
Is Elaine Cunningham too damn good an author?
IIRC, en masse these guys are said to respect, other than their own, only Greens - for being very hardcore and Elven Elves.
Also, 'Elfsong' had Wyn Ashgrove, a Gold Elf who turned out surprisingly reasonable. So... I guess, the answer to your latter question is "yes, but in this context it's irrelevant".

People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch
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jazirian reborn
Acolyte

Australia
10 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2012 :  08:33:21  Show Profile Send jazirian reborn a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Theres plenty of bad examples of poor gold elves ( Vyshaan ) , but the dream of Myth Drannor from Coronal Eltargrim Irithyll , the Srinshee , Lady Auglamyr (a Chosen of Mystra) and many of the greatest martyrs of the Weeping War were good gold elves.
I guess in the bitterness of seeing the Fey'ri survive , and the Starym lunatic fringe grow in the face of human deforestation and magic plundering, more grow darker from the loss of status.
If Silverymoon and the dream of crucible melting pot Waterdeep are considered human pinnacles, the early plans for Myth Drannor lie all with gold elves.

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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe

Germany
542 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2012 :  09:34:46  Show Profile Send _Jarlaxle_ a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Gold elves are even worse than drow. The attitude is similar but at least drow don't try to hide it.
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Irennan
Great Reader

Italy
2602 Posts

Posted - 30 Jul 2012 :  10:17:38  Show Profile Send Irennan a Private Message  Reply with Quote
^ Agreed. Drow at least can be ''justified'' for their attitude with the fact that they are indoctrinated with BS starting since their childhood.
That said, there are exceptions among both Drow and Sun Elves, obviously.

To all Facebook-using FR fans, you might be interested in checking out this page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/450517575051806/
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Aravine
Senior Scribe

USA
608 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2012 :  00:24:04  Show Profile  Visit Aravine's Homepage Send Aravine a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)

The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
29893 Posts

Posted - 14 Aug 2012 :  03:50:57  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine

Put it this way. in the elvish language there is no word for the different races. There is no "Elf","Human" or "Gnome".they have only "person"(any elf) and "not person"(any non-elf)



Do we know, for a fact, that there are no words for other races? Referring to themselves as the People and others as "Not-People" could be a cultural preference. I think it rather unlikely that an intelligent race wouldn't come up with any terms at all to describe different races. If nothing else, it'd be confusing when referring to races that elves get along with and those that elves don't get along with.

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